Steve K9Pro

H: K9: sure, dogs that are too doggy for their other canine pack members take too much leadership from the other higher ranking dogs. When the human enters the situation, they may not be in a position every single time to assert pack position. It ends up as the human often considered a resource, rarely do these dogs look for emotional contact with the hanlder, = no or little pack drive. H: K9: without getting technical, if you are a positive value & everything else is zero, that will automatically place you in Alpha. Yopur presence triggers pack drive. H: K9: I suppose anyones guess is acceptable in a hypothetical. CM: K9: thats an ob issue with the release command, I always put in an exit strategy so that this dont occur.

K9: no, they are similar to me... lol, yes its the same rules... lol...

K9: any time you are ever going to allow him prey drive satisfaction via you, start with a command, such as "ready to work?" make it sound intense & exciting from your dog, dont say it loud, make the dog listen. After a little while if he doesnt show you focus when you say it, dont play. Its like this.. 1. ready to work. 2. dog gives focus. 3. you start prey game. if after a couple of reps, dog doesnt complete step 2, you dont do step 3. If dog tries to make step 2, step 1, you never do step 3... lol get it?

R: K9: adrenalin...lol. R: K9: another handler threw the ball for another dog, & the leash was a 4ft heeler leash... not long at all... shorter than that & he may have stringing the dog up, we all know how much pace a dog can achieve in no time...

K9: hopefull I can shed some light & re aim the thread... I feel that halters run a higher risk then other tools, I also feel that any competant pro dog trainer can train any dog without one. Given those basic parameters, I wouldnt recommend one & encourage people to use other tools. Having said that, anopther issue I have with them is that John Cit can buy one read instructions & from his observation, its a miracle tool, it doesnt say consult a trainer on the pack, it doesnt tell you how to prevent injuries to your dog nor does it say the risks of this happening are moderate. So whilst ignorance is no excuse, your average 'dog owner is putting his dog a risk, when there isnt a need. As for those who can competantly use them, well done, & if you are walking down the street with the thought in mind that of the dog lunges, you will reduce the shock load by letting the leash slip through yuour hands, well done. As someone who deals with fear aggression in dogs regularly & leadership issues daily, I can tell you walking down the street in this frame of mind is certainly not the way to train. Whilst we can all dig up a photo of some poor dog that some fool has injured with what ever tool, I dont think talking of abuse cases is the way to assess a tool. I dont use check chains but I also dont believe that a lunging dog will injur itself on one, there needs to be an action (incorrect one) from the hander to make this occur. The most common injury I have seen on checks is that long haired dogs have had a chunk of hair pulled out when some fool has put a big correction on the dog. I dont use them as I feel they are less effective than a martingalem, thats the only reason. Someone who has a pulling dog needs to see a trainer, I have people come to see me from everywhere, QLD, VIC, TAS, NT,WA, PNG NZ, surely people can find one decent local trainer to fix this easy problem. Its never a case of a certain tool is needed, its that the owner needs to understand & communicate with the dog. Some tools help that occur, but they will not solve the problem. Halters to me are a crutch, I wouldnt use one based on the risks... Not to say they have no positive attributes, but as far as Im concerned, they far from outweight the risks... K9 out.

R: K9: ??? keep trying??? lol I cant see where anyone suggested every single dog will end up with a broken neck... R: K9: the last dog, of many, that I seen sustain an injury was a GR, there was no jerking of the leash, I wasnt the trainer either. The dog was being heeled & another handler threw a ball for his dog, the GR went after & hit the end of a 4 ft leash & then stopped, the dogs head didnt fall off, training continued as normal. 15 minutes later I noted the dog becoming slow to handle, it was in avoidance. I said nothing as I didnt know what the issue was & I wasnt watching this dog only. The club instructor told me the next week that the GR was out this week, mid week he ended up at the vet, then the chiro, he has a neck injury... **********************************

Yes I only use verbals... & only when "teaching"...

S: K9: yes its a great idea, especially is the dog has mistakenly been worked on a correction collar, yep it does happen. Some dogs need some time to get used to the harness also.' H: K9: it doesnt actually block fear, what happens in basic tersm is. you have a dog in no real drive at all, it see's something that it fears & goes into avoidance or defence drive. Its in this drive that you see the undesireable traits. If before you come accross the item that your dogs fears the dog was put into prey drive, the invetsment (concentration wise) the dog needs to make leaves no free speac in the dogs head to see the triggers for defence & avoidance, when this is done over & over the dog begins to become desensitized. K9: this means the dog has a conflict with you & the ball, the dog thinks the ball is the better item & doesnt want to give it to you... YB: K9: its now time to get him off the tie out, there are two reasons for this, one is that he is way high in drive, which would be ok, the other more likely is that his nerves are getting turned on as he feels success is starting to elude him (making it harder to capture) He should be now on a 6ft drag leash & begin ob commands. Recheck program now.. walk into back yard, if dog is running to tie out area, show him a few times no play. He shouldnt trigger on just your presence, make sure you turn it on via voice command. This is the only real use it will have later on... If you can go outside, he can give you focus & you give the command & he runs there, thats fine.

A: K9: retrospectively speaking, he should have been llowed to capture it on the second lunge... A: K9: dogs that have had tioo much "control" put on them do this too, they think they are breaking the leash law... I would put long line on & tease him, then witholut him knowing tether him or have someone he knows hold his long line, then tease then give, its easy to over come...

lol this belonged elsewhere

A: K9: no problems, & having that said, if you said "Steve, Sophi is .... what should I do?" I could give you step by step of what to do, its just not that simple when you dont know the dog or the owner. I think that is what the Chest beaters lol (whomever they may be) may have been getting at...?

S: K9: its more than likely because you dont have a good foundation, like theone I have asked yogi to do.. S: K9: yes well he knows your the link to prey drive satisfaction. This is good thgough I would add more foundation.

E: K9: its use of the tool that is banned (well prongs anyway) not recommendation of. E: K9: my Lawyer is a shark! lol....

K9: that would be great, you need a solid heel in drive to get the dog outside, its like keeping a kite in the air, dont loose the wind so to speak. When you can teach your dog that it can stay in drive which takes concentration, (normally not possible when dog is nervy) that it wont be harmed it will be easier. Its then when you have good confidence you teach bring, retrieve etc...

The order I use is sitz, platz, fuss. Then distraction sitz platz fuss.. or sit, down, heel, lol..

E': K9: yes, I provide accurate info, people make their own law choices. S: K9: ok I would say that proper use would be the method determined by the manufacturer, which is as I say, constant tension. S: K9: the majority of dogs either go into avoidance or panick when just the device is fitted. Then when they cant get it off, they go close to shut down, this all happens before any use at all. S: K9: first, there is drive & there is DRIVE!, correct choice of dog temp & desensitization can over come the loss of drive, we are not talking about what I or Suzanne could do with one though, we are talking about Joe Citizen...

K9: I never try to cure a behaviour problem by cutting things off dogs... I dont think there is much difference really.

K9: yes, now do this until the time is up, whether you feel that you will get more from him isnt important, your buidling a foundation, without a good foundation the training will be weak... When your done with this, its time to drop the tie out & take this to the next level, which is ob command requires completion before he can win. So train the sit command in drive. With me?

S: K9: just for accuracy, dogs actually do things out of motivation, they stop doing things to avoid negative consequences... S: K9: this is correct however, the way the aversive is applied seems to give the dog a lot of room to move in terms of compliance, in other words, pull but with less tension, when the tension (halter) is removed, the dog pulls again. This is also consistent with my theory that they (halters) deminish drive. S: K9: I understand & am greatful its you Sid, other wise it seems to get heated, lol.. S: K9: dog gone... S: K9: I have the dogs best interest in mind, & thankfully, not where I live, but if they were, I guess I would still use them.

S: K9: I see the importance lies in the perception of the user, most people will know that if they jerk like mad on any collar, they may cuase an injury, but loosing concentration on your dog for a moment & it lunging is easier to do than jerking. Its going to happen way more often. In fact if you gave a check to a person who had never seen a dog before, I would be surprised if the checked the dog, so no injury, the same person could fit the halter & injury would occur as they did nothing. S: K9: I think differently, I think the idea is to get the dog to want to do things your way, not do them from a trigger that they have a halter on. S: K9: if simply holding the end of the leash is miss use, then you need another collar & leash fitted with the halter. S: K9: you can double rig them which takes the leverage out of the halter, I can tell you from experience that if you can train this way, you didnt need the halter & its risks... S: K9: I feel differently, like I said, I recommend other tools than I use myself, because it either benefits the owner or dog. I rellay believe there are only three collars of any real use, the e collar, the prong & the martingale, in that order, however I recommend them to my clients in the reverse order of that.

S: K9: if you attach your dog to a check chain & it lunges it wont injur itself, it may do on a halter, of course of correction can injur a dog but from all studies I have read, thats only from extensive use. S: K9: then I would call it a restraint rather than a training tool.. S: K9: like I said before, I deem the risk moderate, not minor, not large, but moderate, & I feel that unlike other tools where there needs to be miss use to cause injury, simply holding the leash on a lunging dog can cause that injry. S: K9: the tools I recomend are not always the ones I use myself, they are the ones that give the client success easily..

HR: K9: either they are pissed at me because I help free or pissed at me because I get results fast. Yeah seems I keep them busy lol.. HR: K9: this is also why Im not a ig fan of recommending books, the author always makes some assumptions as to the readers ability, & if they dont, the damn book is an idiots guide... lol..

S: K9: I dont think that they are no good, I think they serve ok as a maintenance tool but come with risks... S: K9: I will suggest this, I think if the only way a trainer can get results, this is a pro trainer mind you, they are in competant, because they are relying on the exaggerated leverage to get the dog to comply, they have missed the boat when it comes to pack drive & leadership. People have suggested that if I have to use a prong or e collar then I am incompetant. I dont have to, but the owners may have to, are they incompetant? as owners no, as trainers maybe? But thats ok isnt it? I do believe that I could get the same results I get with a flat collar on many dogs, but no way could the owners, & its about giving them control, not me. My overall concern is, buy one, fit is as per instructions, go for a walk, you may come home with a dog with an injured neck, no other tool can do that.

K9: lol, ok, I think when people start training the dogs mind through drive they realise training isnt about gruff vocal tones & powerful corrections...

K: K9: yep its probably bad business, lol.. but in reality I love seeing someone get success, any success with a dog, specially when they thought that they couldnt. I ran an e collar seminar here couple of years ago, a trainer came down from Qld, sorry, an excellent trainer from Qld came down, Jane Harper. She came with a friend /colleage of mine Dr Jackie Perkins, whom I believe would be one of the leading Vet Behaviourists in thiws country, they came to learn e collar training. We used a demo dog Leonard, & to cut a long story short Jane was handling Leonard & after he had improved so much in so little time, I still remember both of us bouncing up the paddock after seein him work, Jane has been training lone as I have, maybe longer, if you love this work, you never stop getting the buzz.. I know trainers who curse me for helping people free, when they need the business.