Steve K9Pro

K9: lol... Like I need more work! lol... How about I dump SARDOG Julie in it & say, how about we run a dual seminar in Vic, I will come down (if people would like) & run something of mine & SARDOG can run one the following day or previous day? Sounds like Lablover is keen. (surprise lol) Or SARDOG can come up here & we run it in NSW either way Im happy to help... how about we do both? One NSW one VIC?

K9: Ok, thanks for the feedback. We have approx 3 hours, first hour how about I demonstrate what pack drive looks like & briefly how I get that.... How to stop leash pulling. Begin the second hour I will ask for suggestions on what to cover, same at the start of the third hour, I leave the topics open & we can discuss anything that you like. I will have a chat with Cindy & work out what dog/s we need...

Ashley: K9: well aware of the breed, but not all retrievers retrieve, shepherds herd or hunters hunt. Whilst you may start with a breed, you need to temp test each dog for suitability...

K9: there are literally hundreds of programs that can be implented to effectively rehab dogs, the order they can be implented is of great importance to the outcome... K9: yes but not as much time as you might think, I try & get a 50% improvement at a consult in which I will spend maybe 15 - 30 mins with the dog. Behaviour consult packages that I have comprise of 2 visits, I aim for a 50% improvement in the consult, another 40% improvement within 8 weeks, then elimate the probelm alltogether. K9: I havent seen her I cant say, however I like to start & direct the rehab, rather than let the dog work it out. When the dog works it out its just a standard desensitization program, without any help from the handler, we can move things alot faster if we guide it. K9: I would be evaluating if she has a proximity problem with the car, you wont keep a dog with this level of problem in a positive drive like play or food for long. Your description alos indiacates the problem is learned as the drooling starts before the car moves... This can be over come.

Ash: K9: yes well if your serious about SAR, you choose the dog, like most high end disciplines, not choose what you would like to do with the dog you have..

K9: I agree, Contact SARDOG from this forum, if they were running a seminar or workshop, I personally would try to attend, great people, great skills & great dogs...

K9: isolate if the dog is suffering motion sickness or fear anxiety resulting in vomiting. Does dog vomit when car has not moved? K9: dogs that are extremely fearful have trouble controlling movements, training wont help until the anxiety is addressed... Sometimes this can be easier than one would think...

K9: you dog is most likely barking in guard drive, the trigger being people entering your home. The same approach may not work as when your dog see's people enter the house, the drive is triggered. My advice would be to put the dog in another oom or outside when people arrive, then when the people have settled allow the dog to come in & have them at that point give a food reward. This way the dog will be finding them injside the house, not the people forcing the boundary of the dog...

K9: every type of barking is driven by something, if you punish, thats handler to dog punish a fear driven dog its not helpful, if its a prey driven dog thats ok, but its better if your using drive (prey) in your trainimng to allow the dog to punish itself, turning it into a consequence, the dog will do this via making mistakes & not earning the toy... That way yo wont lose drive in your training & the dog will learn...

K9: no, dogs driven by fear shouldnt be corrected, it makes the handler part of the problem, not part of the solution...

K9: as I have met your dog & worked him in drive it's pretty well spot on what is happening. Higher drive means higher desire = try new things.

K9: some people aremnt big fans, search Dog Tech in this forum & see what others have to say. here is one

K9: Phatdex, in training in drive programs, the dog is giving an action to get a reaction, such as sit to get the toy etc, a common problem that occurs is that the dog barks in frustration as it wants the toy, & some where along the line gets the toy & feels the barking is the key to getting the toy. This trick has been transferred onto getting attention from people by your dog. To handle this. In your prey drive work, go back to stimulating the dog to chase the item, prey drive development, & not allow him to capture for a little while. Then stop your movement & position the toy so that he will sit, give him the command too. When he sits instantly release the toy & him to have it. Repeat this until he sits 100% lightning fast. If he already does this, do it for 6 x 5 minute sessions over 2 days do nothing else. Then, begin to delay the dropping of the toy, this should bring out the frustration & the bark. If the dog barks, turn & walk away inside the house. Teach him barking ends the game with NO satisfaction. He will shut up fast... When he learns to wait (focus) he will get the toy. For people, his drive (pack drive) in this case should be tuned down. Get a person to play decoy for you, have them walk up & have him sit down. The sit should be done via avoidance training. Command - correction - comply - reward (verbal reward from you). If he breaks the sit, repeat the action above command - correction - comply - reward. If he begins to bark same. The correct action is focus & control himself.

K9: I always supply at least one control program so that from the time you leave our facility you have control. The other programs I include give you pack leader position, the above are often standard, once this is in operation we address the problem you came for. But with control & leadership you dont have the extinction burst, so the program flows smoothly. I try & make sure I restore faith (hope) in the owner by showing results immediatly, this ensures you will persist. In most cases we show a 70% plus improvment at the time of consultation then attempt to achieve another 20% in 2 - 4 weeks. The last 10 % coming within 8 - 12 weeks in many cases. The results you have been promised will not come, each of the things you mentioned are handled differently, so will be a step in their own, but without control & leadership yo would stand zero chance. I dont think what your doing will neccessarily cause any harm so contuing at worst will probably just cost you time...

C: K9: getting worse before it gets better means the method is reliant on the dog recieving no reward for its actions & getting frustrated, often resulting in an extinction burst, this can be avoided with a more thorough program. If you persist on & what is going on is the dog is getting worse, your making a mistake.. R: K9: this is untrue, "some" dogs may find it threatening.... Solid dogs most often have no issue with it. Not knowing whop came out, this person has assessed the dog (I would think) & obviously feels a head pat is rewarding to the dog...

K9: just as a side note, one thing I dont do is instruct how to use head halters, I dont believe in them & dont use nor recommend them at all. So anyone coming is free to use or buy one but it's not what we will be teaching..

K9: what you offered was no solution R: K9: Ahh now I see, your a chicken protector not a dog trainer & they wouldnt as no permanent intervention has been made, just a stop gap. R: K9: no where you will see that I said that I dont, I just dont call it a solution... R: K9: no where did anyone suggest it wasnt, there was a fence in the first place that the dog broke through, running the same plan would be stupidity. R: K9: well your one person that thinks so... R: K9: hold your breath.

K9: Thanks everyone for the interest. Dogs? It depends on what we are to cover, if we are going to cover any obedience, dogs with issues will respond different to dogs without. If we cover timid dogs, then we need one of those? So first we need to settle on a topic, Im open & dont mind. It will be a weeknite. So how about you all decide what you would like to cover then we choose a dog or dogs & go from there.. Steve

R: K9: Its become obvious that you are avoiding answering any questions, its my belief that you cant. You made some comment about me not reading the thread, in which I have, if you were following your own advice you would see wherfe I have asked you questions giving you the opportunity to prove your theories, but you choose to ignore that opportunity but reply with non productive responses. Im guessing thats because your well aware that your out of your depth here. If you continue to respond in this manner this only brands you a troll. I will do you the courtesy of replying to what you have written. R: K9: a brief revision of the thread will see you talking about your children, seaguls, recalls & training methods, it seems your great at going off topic until your called on your posts, then it seems all you to do is avoid questions on what you have said. R: K9: This thread is titled "punishment" I replied using an example other than the OP situation so as to avoid any thought that I was laying blame. R: K9: & you have been told numerous times that it is not a solution. R: K9: now you tell me it is something else, then ask what it is anyway? You might have a better idea of what is going on if you stopped making up stories of your achievements & answered the questions... The advice your offered is no solution, & this is the problem with people offering this type of advice based on little or no fact, posts can be researched & you have people following advice like the OP did & going the wrong way... C: K9: punishment is associated with the handler, negative consequence isnt. There is a marked difference between the two. Its actually the aversive that reduces the likelihood of a behaviour being repeated, if that aversive is paired with the handler, the likelihood of the behaviour being repeated when the hanlder is present is reduced, remove the handler & this will not be the case. M: K9: the dog chasing the chickens is in need of prey drive satisfaction, the more you prevent that from occuring the more the dog will try. There needs to be a program set for this dog that will include other types of prey drive satisfaction whilst training the dog to understand that chasing the chicekns is out. In the interim, a solid fence preferably blocking the visual aspect of the chooks will be a neccessity... The program should be designed to fit in with the dog, & you & should be specified by a proffessional that has assessed the dog. That Rusky, is my solution R: K9: questions work two ways, why not try answering mine, but here is your answer, "Im sure you know that, but if you dont, PM me...."

R: K9: you must have missed this K9: I guess thats your way of fixing things, avoidance... R: K9: you never seen high enough prey drive... R: K9: how would you teach such a recall? I understand if you dont wish to answer this & my other questions, just seemed you had all the answers before..?

K9: thanks Lillysmum, its always nice to remember that a dog can be in control of positive & negative consequences, but not in control of how one punishes a dog. Punishment is often anger driven by some trainers, which = inconsistency & often over correction.. Perhaps when R answers the questions I asked we will learn another view.

R: K9: with all your experience, you should know... R: K9: neither are mine, but as other peoples may be, its a worthwhile example. R: K9: how many knees you git vs how many kids? Just remember not all kids will happily sit there, so again your experience may not be others... As I mentioned, its a dull life sitting on mums knee all the time as you havent been taught right from wrong. Maintenance = lack of freedom.. R: K9: I train dogs not kids, I did mention there is a considerable difference, you seem to have missed that. You set up a dog to fail so that you remove that option when your proofing the dog later. R: K9: the problem isnt solved at all, it simply avoided. The next time a bird lands in the yard what then, or when the dog is walked & cmes in eye contact with birds of any kind, or like the child example you take the dog to someones home who had a bird & hell breaks loose. It's perfectly reasonable to ask for a way to train around this problem rather than simply avoiding it. Im sure you will know this but, lets say this dog of the OPs is kept out via a better fence, as the dog feels that chasing chickens is great way to satisfy prey drive, the fence only provides frustration, knowing that frustration is a great drive builder, I would not be surprised to see this dog self harming trying to get through the fence if no training is done. But then I guess the maintenance program would be kill the dog? R: K9: here are a few considerations... 1. if the dog catches the seagul, & is reported it can be PTS or declared dangerous, the act of chasing could also be considered the same in todays climate. 2. when the dog is running off chasing, it wont obey you so if it flies accross a road? R: K9: ok, so maybe you can share with us how you would leash train the dog? & then tell us how when the dog is off leash, why he wont chase the birds? R: K9: Im glad your amused, maybe when reading all of this post, you will answer the questions too?

R: K9: thats an interesting management program.. You might also consider that not all dogs are the same, in fact no two are alike, so whilts your giving a recount of what your ONE dog will or wont do, Im talking about conbsiderably more than one. Thresholds to prey drive, previous training etc will all come into account. R: K9: maybe you can explain what you think the correction stage is? R: K9: then I guess we will all be directing our training questions to you... but, the OP was asking for a FIX, not what they should have done, hindsight is quite a powerful tool.

R: K9: keep in mind the washing being taken from the line was an example to explain why I prefer consequences over punishment. R: K9: this really isnt true, if you never expose your dog to washing & teach him that it isnt acceptable, you will be forever in management. A successful step is only effective when there is an unsuccessful step if you want reliability. R: K9: there are three stages to training a dog, the learning stage, the correction stage & the distraction stage. If you never expose your dog to washing that he might want, you have missed the most crucial stage of training, the distraction stage. This is no different than keeping your dog away from cats for 2 years then expecting that the dog will not chase cats, you have no idea what the dog will do & more importantly the dog has no idea what you want him to do, as the bridge of cats has never been crossed. As in the OP situation, this dog may not have been around chickens, possibly due to the fencing, this would be considered management. Now thats the fencing the dog now has broken through to get to the chickens. Management = more management, training = less management. R: K9: greys have a strong natural prey drive, if you dont teach this breed they cannot chase & bite everything they find prey stimulating you have an out of control dog, management wont work when prey drive is a subconscious reaction to stimuli. What does work is teaching the dog "this is fine to chase, that is not ok to chase"...

R: K9: as suggested you find an alternate aversive. R: K9: The washing on the line was an example, however this tells me much about your dog... R: K9: that argument can be taken all the way to "no dog should be trained at all". The idea of training is to have the dog enjoy as much freedom as it can without having a negative impact on the other pack members... R: K9: so I guess you never took them to anyone else's home then? R: K9: #1, children arent dogs, #2 you brought children into the equation & #3 you chose to train your kids at an age where they could understand, I cant see anywhere that people suggested scolding or trying to "reliably" train a baby puppy? #4. I bet you wouldnt be so relaxed if your kids that were never taught not to touch were running around some one elses home where there was much to be ware. Of course you could avoid taking your kids there, or keep a hold of them, but again I cant see you ending up a "happy relaxed mother" & this also removes some freedom... There is always two sides to every scale... management = less training = less freedom. Trining doesnt always equal tears either..