Steve K9Pro

K9: I havent seen the dog so no good asking me... I have worked with many PPDs with issues, many of them were sorted by aligning the goal of the dog & handler.... Removing the conflict over the prey item etc...

K9: a glove is not bad of an idea, too much gear is a bad idea, it will give him something to bite... Put him on te tie out for 3 weeks, you will develop the skills needs in that time... full length bite tug it is... will have to go find out where to get them... K9: I have them in various lengths right up to full, quality ones that will last. K9: should be dont train anything other than build drive... K9: yes, my programs will work together... K9: he makes a big effort to catch the item.... K9: the less he tries the more he captures, the more he tries the less he captures... K9: you will be better to wait until Im in Vic, the descriptions I would have to give you would take too long to type & can go very wrong... K9: thats the idea.... it's a bitch having to stop training because i'm in pain and pissing blood everywhere... K9: if done correctly, he will really be able to take the arm off, this is tough work, make no mistake... Get used to it.. Protection is about him defeating an attacker, security will mean you will be mixing it up, lil teeth on your skin shouldnt be an issue... K9: Let me assure you, I have done this thousands of times.... I have all my fingers... K9: there isnt or shouldnt be any aggression in prey training.... remember what your training for could get you hurt much worse than an accidental prey grab, & you may need to work on those arms too... K9: or have different commands that end in drive satisfaction eg: come = compulsion here = drive... K9: no absolutely not... we will sort this when Im in Vic K9: dates being released for the Training In Drive & SAR workshop in Vic very very soon.....

The other dog is hers... But yes in a way...

K9: you arent the satisfaction, the item is, your helping the dog achieve it

K9": Drive satisfaction creates Endorphin flow in dogs mind....

K9: ball on a string or full length bite tug... K9: dont train him in public until he is reliable... K9: good, he needs to bite the ball... K9: 7 days per week, 3 times per day, 3 mins per time... Minimum 2 weeks... No other training... K9: when done right he will earn it... Tug is required with some dogs.. Others just the capture.. k9: this largley depends on what you want to do... two high value items will cause mouthiness in some dogs... Run the dog in a circle until he drops the item... K9: In three weeks, you will learn much before you start to develop his bite, like how not to get bit... K9: I say "ok time to go to work", then give commands in German, including the bite command... All german commands end in drive satisfaction... Dog is turned on ititially by the "lets go to work" then retrigger drive with german commands.. K9: If he grabs your arm he will drop it & not maul you... K9: this just takes some handling skills... K9: if your gonna work in prey, train in prey... Nothing wrong with swapping prey item for food if you have to.. Come to SAR workshop & you will learn handling in drive...

K9: Yes a good chance, but also a good chance he will start to get possessive if he thinks the pack leader "may" give the prey item to another dog.... You want him thinking there are no other dogs, not that another dog may get the item... This is increasing the value (negatively) of the other dog (again). One step forward one step back... I try to provide programs that go only forward & fast.. K9: some would say once in a lifetime is too much. K9: & inside the yard, & any where you ask it...

K9: just having a quick rethink about some of the replies here... I can only give you the steps to success with these programs, if they dont suit your dog or lifestyle, thats a decision only you can make.. I can tell you that if you want the serious results these programs yield, you cant compromise the programs with other training styles...

K9: why not remove the dog parks & clubs, thats 2 out of three... K9: Well I have trained dogs for years, but what Im getting at is, if I attended an Elephant training workshop, I wouldnt come home & start training other peopls Elephants... One might start by getting a dog, training it & expanding from there...

K9: Your Rex's pack leader, thats the prey item you stimulate him with, you give it to another dog... This creates conflict, possible outcome over possessiveness & aggression... K9: Great news... mifht be that the program works after all.... K9: Not if you give that kong to other dogs.... K9: not enough satisfaction, possibly too much off leash time with other dogs... K9: I thought you said undesireable?

K9: I dont think it was ever meant to be a demo on neutralisation... K9: exceptionally well, but she was not trying to neutralise, the whole thread explain how you cant neutralise after a value has been set... I seen her dog after there were problems developed... K9: So if you add suburban streets to dog parks & clubs... Your sure to get negative results... Considering that the chief instructor of my club is attending your drive workshop with her dog, maybe there is a chance that not only we will do it but also be able to identify the dogs suitable for the work. K9: theres always a chance, but if you choose the right dogs, then try & get training in drive programs working with social companionship, dog park runner... You will still be in the same place your in now... I certainly wouldnt think that someone would leave my workshop & become an instructor on something they just learned either... ************************************** K9: do you know this or think this, training in drive is very mentally exhausting, try it & see... K9: this just really cant happen, he has to work any time.... K9: You need to decide which you would prefer, I cant help you with that, Im just providing you the info on how to do one of those...

K9: if its any style of training other than teaching your dog to go into high prey drive & then control itself to gain drive satisfaction from you, it will be drive deminishing, as the dog will learn that satisfaction is available in ways other than with the toy... K9: no training at all other than your drive work, if you want to every get it useable... K9: I would make a decision as to whether he will be able to or not, doing both will just slow things down... He is the dog I can take with me to social outings - family gatherings, picnics, etc - it is more stressful taking Zoe because of her dog aggression. I don't see how I can still take him places if I don't do at least some control work with him - people don't appreciate a full on GSD K9: training in drive is a pro program, not one where you can do many things & this as well... If you put in mediochre work you will get those results, pro programs are designed to provide pro results. If you use your dog for a social companion, obedience club dog with food motivation, dog park running, & in your spare time you give Training in (prey) drive a whirl, you dont stand a chance of getting any reasonable response out of your dog in any of those areas. You have to focus on just one thing if you want to win at that... K9: Risky for the dog, compromises training.. Breaks the success.. K9: Thats fine with me, its just that you wont get the results you want with a training in prey drive program. Those who have multi uses for their dogs always seem to struggle getting really great results, thats where the problems lie... K9: great idea but the dogs will need to have enough drive to ignor the group of dogs, know that.

K9: whats the gain? if your dog is neutralised he wont enjoy it, all that leaves you with is the risk from the other dogs... K9: lol like that worries me... K9: you would either separate them, advisable, or know all your dogs better than you would know other peoples... K9: what for? what gain? K9: you say no to people, you control the other dogs... K9: The only help is that you can call your dog away before it hits the fan... K9: I can get you about 30 from memory... Didnt you see how my dogs reacts to others, even in his own territory? K9: you teach the dog to see something new, & come to you to see what to do about it... I've loosened the control with Diesel (which means he was a bit wild at training last night!) - so how am I to control a 30kg dog if I don't use control work in ob. until this drive building stuff works anyway? K9: You ideally dont put too much control in until you get the drive where you want it, you also dont try train many things at once. If you do drive work & go to local club avoidance training (drive extinguishing training) you wont get anywhere, all you will go is give your dog more corrections.... K9: You dont go to the club... K9: yet another reason not to go to the club If this is to be successful, you must only do the drive building, any correction style training will kill drive... K9: I was able to find a spare few minutes on the weekend & brought my dogs out for a session to see if I could use either one in the drive workshop coming... I probably wont, reason being that when a prey item is presented they feel it will end in biting a person, we cant really have that.... Anyway it has been 3 years since I did this work with my GSD bitch who is now around 5... She had what I would call moderate to high drive for the toy... Much higher drive for a sleeve or bite suit.. I had to modify the procedure slightly as the jaws slamming shut just near my hand would have taken off a finger or hand if she got closer... She was leaping 2 - 3 metres at the glance of the toy... She would drop in drive & stay for upwards of 5 minutes under very high distraction with 100% total focus.. Other dogs there, people, car driving close to her & other dog in pack closer to the toy... Once done right this work is undoubtadly the highest level of compliance you will get.... If I can get this on video I will do & upload it..

K9": sure thats fine as you describe it... I just wouldnt be at the park from the start...

K9: Maybe an ifo nite would be possible, with soe video footage, otherwise its hard to show the effects of the neutralisation... Like watching hair grow...

K9: It is worth taking a look at the whole picture here... Curbing the "behaviour" will be reducing the aggression, that leaves the fear un dealt with. Whilst you understand her distance of reaction, or critcal distance, you need to be aware that she is in fear mode long before that & this stress will cause more harm than the training will provide. I would suggest that you look into a desensitization program for your dog. Remember that each time your dog reacts & shows aggression, the worse the problem is becoming because it has just been reinforced one more time as a successful behaviour to protect against other dogs.

K9: I do this until the puppy see's the item Im working on as neutral.... Some dogs 5 mins a few times, others it takes more... K9: I use a pen that would keep my pup separate from the adults whilst Im not there... K9: I dont let them run together at all, seeing is ok, until Im sure the neutralisation is complete... ************************** K9: Some people like their dogs to play with others so they can be let off the hook, as someone suggested, its easier to turn up at a park & let someone elses dog entertain yours... They were right it is, its also very risky to your dog, it also teaches your dog that other dogs are of great value, greater than you, which in terms of training means that you will struggle to get any sort of reliability from your dog... Scenario: You have a dog that see's other dog as a level 10 on the scale of 1 - 10. You want this dog to recall away from that dog, the only way to get this to happen is add pressure or pain... Food will not be a level ten & even if it was, its only equal to the other dog.... If your dog see's other dogs as say a level 1 - 3 then it wont take much to get him to recall... If your dog is neutralised, the level of interest is zero... Its easy, no pressure nor pain required, like calling your dog away from a cement path.. The reasons dogs dont comply with known commands is simply, its that they havent been trained to comply under that level of distraction... Why would you make strange dogs into a high level distraction only to want to call your dogs away later? Dog packs normally dont welcome a strange dog to the pack, thats abnormal... But we expect it to happen every day.

K9: My two are family pets..... Lablovers dogs are part of the family too.... But then again, I think Robot from Lost in Space was part of the family.... lol

K9: I cant say that, but I can say that I can play with my dogs without acting like a dog... K9: The term family pet means something different to everyone... As you are reading about this program rather than have tried iot out on a large scale of dogs, & I have put many dogs through this & have hundreds of clients use it, I know that is desireable & extremly practical.. The desireability is less work for you & less risk for the dog with an upside of easier training... K9: the humans can be the be all & end all... K9: I work with dogs not kids lol...

K9: yes if your dog has been socialised to other dogs for example, then its too late, & this has been extensively covered in the thread... K9: My dogs get that enjoyment out of playing with me... Thirdly - danger of playing. K9: there isnt any control here at all, an issue could start at the home of one of the regulars & that dog could easily bring those issues to the dog park, attack your dog & transfer the problem onto your dog. In my opnion thats simply not worth it. If this did happen, anything you do would be a reaction.... K9: the word reliable leaves things quite a bit open, reliable means to me that you can rely on it always... This wont be the case if she has so much fun playing with other dogs & not you... K9: people often say you cant get 100% reliability from a dog, I dont believe them, I have gotten & seen it many times, but it is built on a combination of things, not a training program... Everyone has their own goals, I can take my dogs anywhere at all with no leash no matter what distraction, thats gives them a lot more freedom than they would receive if they werent reliable.. K9: this means your looking for 100% reliability, you wont get that without some sort of plan including neutralisation. K9: You should be able to expect that, but if she doesnt have it this comes down to your loss... or at least your dogs... K9: yes a dog that isnt reliable. That will always take much more training to achieve less results... K9: People often use the term robotic to describe a dog with high level training.... Foibles could cover anything from totally untrained & loveable to having a totally aggressive dog.. Your Foibles may be what someone else would consider unacceptable.. ********************************************************* K9: Middle ground to me means someone wants their cake & eat it to... Wont happen, you will get a recall better than the one you have now, but you wont get 100% reliability, if its a family pet does that matter? It does if you start limiting the dogs freedom if you ask me...

K9: Just like Lablover said, they get by... Never had the problem....

K9: by the dogs reaction to other dogs...

K9: socialisation is showing a dog something new, & assigning a value to it... either positive, neutral or negative.. generally we have been taught assign a positive value, I feel neutral is better... if your dog already has a value of other dogs assigned, its too late.. K9: it largely depends on the instructor at the time....

K9: Busy planning Victorian workshops now... I havent any plans to run the handler one at home again at this point, but Im sure it will be back on some day....

with Dougies post removed, there was no need for mine...