Steve K9Pro

K9: keep going but be aware that stress is there when she drools.... When at the Training in Drive workshop I will show you other signs to look for.. Its only just over 4 weeks away now

K9: yes its a stress related condition. As the dog has already had some training in drive, when you try & "build" more drive through frustration, the dog thinks that it isnt getting the moves right & feels that it has lost the path to success (drive satisfaction) This causes stress & manifests in Flame in the form of drool.... It will pass.. K9: he loses another body fluid.

K9: no its not the same, you dont carry the food around in the TOT, otherwise it wouldnt be tempting. K9: stop throwing it & he will change his mind. K9: no thats fine... K9: yes they do...

K9: with more experience a dog can settle faster in the presence of the item... But sometimes when you build a bit of drive (spinning) when you stop you may see a tremble... Thats quite normal.

K9: Myszka who needs more focus work...

K9: Just like in the TOT, put the prey item on the ground, heel him with focus on you & then walk over & deploy the prey item....

K9: yes but thats where training comes in & you teach the dog to more... K9: more focus work required... This will tire out his mind.. K9: chasing a thrown ball doesnt take a genius, give him more work to do... He only needs to capture the ball... Not a big throw...

K9: It would be worthwhile to start from sctratch just to add a positive to the tie out & make sure the dog figures how to look at you.... K9: the above program is the starting point, once you have the dog look at you, comfortable on the tie out, sit, sit stay remove tie out sit stay add time, then distance.. You then work on the recall... Then you can work on anything else, such as the front, finish, heel work etc etc... K9: ok, there is no growling & this means you dont have a good sit stay... Go back to the tie out... Corrections are in the form of time delay... This is training in drive not avoidance training... K9: lol, I think its me who needs the drink... Once you have the dog complete the excersizes you want, the kids start...

K9: This is a slightly clearer version of the program Triangle of Temptation. This is a behaviour, pack structure & obedience program that takes nearly no time from your day. I created this program after many years of working with dogs. It’s remarkably effective for gaining control with no force. I have used it with dogs for many years that have been trained to engage a man in combat & would not hesitate to attack me if it were not for this program. I have also used it to rehab extremely fearful dogs that would otherwise not even look at me & I have used it for competition dogs when training in drive. The bases of this program is to have the dog look to you for guidance & permission to partake in anything you say that the dog can, including food, toys, game etc. Our goal is to have the dog engage self control out of respect for you. This teaches the dog to control its drive & strengthen its mind. To begin the program we must follow basic training principles, they are the learning phase, the correction phase & the distraction phase. This means start the training with no other distractions around, no dogs people etc. The key to starting is to have a food driven dog, if you don’t have a dog with a high food drive, miss the meal before you start or at least reduce it by ¾. Fasting is healthy for dogs. Now you have a dog that wants the food, this means the dog will have drive for the food. This is a training IN drive program. Next back tie your dog with a flat buckle collar (non correctional collar) & rope to something solid in your yard. Make sure all other dogs are out of site, we are looking for as low a distraction as possible. Learning is best done under no distraction, we are trying to trigger food drive, not possessiveness, so no other animals. Prepare the meal inside & this should be done after all higher members have eaten. Your dog will learn, through positive results in this program that being tied out will end in drive satisfaction ie: Positive reinforcement. This is good if you have a dog that whines on a tie out. At the end of the program you will have a list of things, such as being tied out, long sit stays etc that are all thought of as positive to your dog. Allow your dog to relax on the back tie, a few minutes is usually enough. Don’t go out to a whining dog. Now bring out your dogs food, show it to your dog, & begin to walk out in front of your dog, your looking for that moment in distance that your dog looks like the food wasn’t for him or her after all. Basically taking the dog just out of full food drive. Your trying to trigger the dogs’ high food drives but not so high as to make self control impossible, this would be called drive peak. This distance for some dogs is 2 metres, other 10 metres. Now you will find our dog looking at the food, possibly trying to get to it, this is what you want. If the dog is going to hysterics, move the food further away. (This would be an example of full food drive peak) What it shows is that the dog thinks that he is entitled to the food, but that’s not the case. Approach your dog & stand at his right hand side, stand quietly whilst the dog gets all excited for the food. Look at your dog & wait. Say nothing. One of two things will happen, either the dog will go on & on & just stare at the food or he will look at you. If he doesn’t look, say the dogs name. You want to see the dog look at you, when he/she does be quick to “mark” the look with “yes” then release the dog with an OK (free) command & let the dog loose to eat the food, you should sound very happy. Many people tell me they already do most of this, do it exactly as described. Missing the verbal marker & the free command will change the outcome… The next evening you will repeat the same. This exercise is very effective, as you need to feed your dogs anyway, so they may as well learn at the same time. You are looking to repeat this until when you place the food down, the dog looks at you & not the food. I can have most dogs do this in 2 – 4 days. The dog does not need to give you total attention unless you’re looking for competition level results. Looking at you means the dog sees you as the person in charge; he has given up staring at the food as he knows that it’s you who say when he can have it, & he can only have it when you say so. Now its time to add the sit command when you stand next to the dog. As soon as the dog sits, you verbal mark with yes. Bend down & unleash the dog, give OK command so the dog may eat. Always go inside when you release the dog. The triangle is formed by drawing a line between you, the dog & the temptation. When you have a good sit, as that is what is being built here, you can add time, by saying stay & then verbal mark yes after 10 seconds, then 60 seconds & so on. Remove the back tie & keep it in your hands, if the dog should break the stay, you begin again. Your looking to increase the time the dog has to stay sitting by 10 seconds per day until you get over three minutes. This is all standing right next to your dog. Think of the achievement so far, your dog will tie out happily; it will sit, stay & give you attention, all in the presence of food. When three minutes has been gained & you will be certain you can go farther, start to increase the distance between you & the dog, whilst holding the tie out rope. You should increase this distance by increments of 1 metre. Up until you did this, the dog was viewing the food (temptation) as unobtainable, & you as unbeatable. Now by increasing the distance the dog will start to feel the food is obtainable & you just might be beatable. The long rope will teach the dog very quickly that you are not. The rule you need to remember is: Time before distance before distraction. This is essential for a marked improvement every day. When you find yourself able to wander inside while the food bowl sits there UN touched by the dog, you’re ready to add distraction. Allow a second dog now to eat from its own bowl perhaps, remain out of site for a period of time, and change the environment to outside the front gate perhaps. These are just some ways to add distraction. Build reliability into your dog by working it. When you’re at this level you will never have a dominance problem with your dog, you can’t have, he looks at you to make the big decisions, like when he can have his treasure. Feel free to substitute the food for another treasure, such as a treat, ball, toy or an open back door or front gate. The key is that this gives you control of all the treasures in life, each repetition is positively rewarded at the end by allowing the dog the treasure, when you say he can have it. This is the generic version of this program, we modify this program many ways to suit different applications, from nervy stressful dogs to rank aggressive dogs to high level competitors. I use a prey item in the TOT to teach bite work, comp heeling etc etc… We can tailor this program to suit all applications. This article is copyright protected (2004) © and can not be used or distributed without K9 force consent. You are, however, allowed to distrubute this link to direct people to this site. Steve Courtney

K9: theory is that as dogs were allowed to roam the streets more, there was better socialisation than our best efforts produce today.

K9: course I have. NILIF the kids play invisable dog when the dog is missbehaving, TOT is childs play.... K9: actually Television is the cause of short attention span.... K9: body language & control... Use the TOT with your kids, you start the process they continue it...

K9 : have the kids run my TOT program & practice the nilif as best they can...

K9: Im afraid your not getting it.... My dogs dont dislike nor like the vet, so there is no issue.... K9: from memory it was you who said the lady in your example looked at thing differently... Not me. K9: The term well socialisedmeans something different to everyone. Most people try to get their dogs to love other dogs, call it socialisation... Then try train them not to run up tp other dogs, call this well behaved or trained. K9: only because it wouldnt be fair to work a dog in full defence drive before it matures... There are developmental reasons. K9: Sorry, I cant compete with heresay... I know at least 300 trainers that have told me they can do many things that they could not... K9: well they are wrong, if therew were 3000 they would be wrong too... & I am talking from experience.. K9: Every training methods goal is to develop self control, this one just does it via extinguishing drive. Thats a known fact. Whilts thats fine for many dogs & situations, its not for many others... K9: whilst many people do get it wrong, fewer accept that compulsion reduces drive... K9: why would anyone using a certain method speak glowingly of it? Only an idiot would use a method thaqt didnt believe in? K9: it rarely occurs as I avoid these situations... K9: as the cig companies say 20 billion smokers cant be wrong... I would rather boast results then leash time... I have seen woeful trainers with more years than me.. This lady may have the worlds best method, biut if it relies on 40 years experience, its relatively ineffective.. Mine avoids problems so a novice can accomplish it easily... Training dogs is about teaching their handlers, to me. If its too complicated, they will fail in turn I fail.... ************************* K9: then dont do it.... no one is asking you too... K9: the kids in your family dont have to be neutral... K9: the oh dont have to be neutral either but seems he is... He wont need the commands or signals if he learns to control pack drive... K9: spare a thought for me, Im not a barman you know K9: not exactly... This program takes less work, like teach one command, "not sure? come to me". K9: very much so & its very common...when the service work is patrol style work, this action highlights the dog is rained via fear....

K: Like Kateshep I wonder that if you don't let your pup meet other friendly dogs and be patted by people (maybe even hugged by kids) - how will your dog cope with something like that happening later on? K9: by returning to the handler... A dog being surprised will not rely on socialisation as much as its nerves.. K9: this has to do with nerves... If the dog is neutral to kids, hugs etc no probs... Kids hug my dogs, my 2yold climbs all over them, feeds them etc, no probs... Nerves trigger defensive drives.. K9: No, my males is 9 yo old almost been to vet about 4 times... Bitch 5 yo, vet about 4 times... K9: the dog chooses to come back... Next time you come here you can rough handle & hug my dogs all you like, see what they do. They will just look at you. Then walk away... When others pat them, they will take it, but dont kick into pack drive for anyone but me....

K9: Yes, like why create problems for yourself... Its easier not to... ********************************************************** K9: It's not really feasable to make a comparison on two dogs based on heresay. K9: take one step further back, packs (wild) would never allow another dog or wolf to enter the pack, play with it or any such thing... Thats in line with my program. Expecting a dog to befriend every dog it comes accross is against that.... K9: supervision isnt control, when you supervise two dogs together, if a fight breaks out, all you can do is alert the media (in other words REACT). Then its too late... I find it surprising that you are defending what another trainer does from nothimng more than an internet blog. Maybe it would be worthwhile seeing her dogs or raising a few in her method compared to mine... K9: yes but we arent talking about a sheepdog trainer, I may as well say it's fine for dogs to bite people.... Sheepdog trainers dont allow their dogs to chase sheep uncontrolled... Other wise they wouldnt be sheepdog trainers. K9: you will find that the reward (sheep) is controlled by the trainer... K9: sure, many people state that you cant have Personal Prot dog ready in under 2 - 3 years, not all, many. I have trained all the moves & had a dog woprking perfectly by 12 months. I wouldnt deploy that dog until it reaches mental maturity though.. Many also state that you wont get a reliable SAR dog ready before 4 - 5 years, this I have heard around the world. SARDOG has gained reliability way before that... K9: Expectations are rarely met... Maybe you would benefit by going to a few comp dogs homes... I have seen dogs that score high in the ring have no social skills or obedience outside the ring & pattern... K9: ALl of the dogs she has ever had, or all of the dogs she has now... Because people can easily wash dogs that wont work... Again, I cant debate with you on her training methods... K9: No they do not... Thats a proven fact... K9: look around a lil more... Even in the latest SchH Nats here, [people commented on the dogs that were working in drive compared to the ones that were working in avoidance... Drive in ob is a relatively new addition... K9: actually it makes no sense, but I still see it daily... The method that you use does not allow for drive, a dog making its own decisions is outside of the Koehler Regime... K9: & thats fine, no one is attempting to say that this is the only way, in fact its my way... Feelings come from experience & knowledge, the more you get, often the more your feelings change... K9: no they are taught to return to the handler when they arent sure of the intentions...

K9: well there you go.... May perform like mine but mine dont dig or kill goldfish lol... Our fences are also only approx 4ft high & both dogs have been trained to climb up to 9ft walls in their day.. They dont leave the home as they are well settled there...

K9: socialisation is exposing the dog to new experiences & events & asigning a positive value or association. Neutralisation is the same only the value is neutral. K9: there is another thread about a dog chasing sheep.. The dog does so as it has a positive value for the sheep, prey drive satisfaction... Its like this, why would you allow a dog to chase & catch sheep, if you later wanted the dog to ignore sheep & comply with commands when sheep are around? The answer is that you wouldnt... Same applies, why let your dog get a high value for dogs if you want it to comply around them? The way it will be done is with time & most likely aversives, as suggested in the sheep thread... Why do this?

K9: many people have a varioed opinion on what reliable is... It also depends what type of service we are talking about. Competition OB is a little different as it can be trained through a pattern, either of drive satisfaction (pref) or containing drive... The other thing is, maturity aside, dogs can be trained to be 100% reliable well before 2 years.... Maybe thats why she needs two years? K9: she is using the generic program where as Im not... Im happy with the communication skills dogs learn in the 8 weeks they are with litter mates... After that its only reinforcing what they have already learned... I then control other meetings.. Years ago the aggressive dogs per capita were much less, hence it was ok to allow your dog to roam the streets & get socialised.. Not so these days... K9: well thats a big call on your part, having never seen my dogs work or hers :D You can teach a dog to be well mannered & not cause any problems by beating all the drive out of it... The dog will be a non reactive dog thats suitable to take to retirement homes etc... Certainly wont be capable of the service work that I would train for.. Instead of looking at what people say, use your own feelings about how a dog is trained, you will see what I mean if you do this...

K9: Its not a dog related question, its a question related to the Guide Dog Assoc training & socialisation program...

K9: Sorry Im K9 Force, not Guide dog assoc... K9: I would say yes, but the chances are less likely... It would also take more training... K9: I alwasy try to ascertain what value the dog has on other dogs, scale 0 - 10, if its ten, you will have to put in a lot of work, you will also have to use aversives, which reduce drive, the over all performance of the dog will be less than that dog could have been had it been neutralised. Allowing your dog to get a high value for other dogs makes your training slower & your results weaker, with no positive gain...

K9: They ouwl be better to neutralise, but on that scale Im sure they think its too expensive. They do wash dogs out when the dogs wont respond the way they like... Leonard was a failed Guide dog..

K9: You can try it if you like, I have seen people use them & I wouldnt... The dog learns not to bite your skin as when it does, the game stops... Long sleeves got torn off frequently... .K9: Protection gear is ordered off site, but I will bring some K9: Scope, I have like 20 lady clients doing this at the moment without leather on them, you will manage... K9: lol... K9: nope, taught in drive so that the corrections are the dog not earning the item as quick...

K9: Drive training is excercise... K9: What needs to be done is as I have suggested many times, 3 times per day, 3 mins per time, 7 days per week, 3 weeks. No other training.. At the end of that time, you will either know you have the drive or you wont... As you havent done this your still (months later) struggling... Your dog hasnt learned that there is prey drive satisfaction available else where, the minute he lets himself go at training (which is what you want to happen) you think thats him going wild & you try & put control on him.... This is the opposite to what you need to do if you want drive... One reason I tell people about the three weeks drive building is that, if they wont put in three weeks of work, its a good indication they wont have the discipline required for training in drive later on... I'm sure its torture for you trying to do many things & none of them working as you would like, give up on training in drive & go back to food spitting, but he needs to start having a lot of food spat at him, like feed him that way or you wont have success there either... *********************************************** E: Damn it, Steve .... I was gonna start on elephants tomorrow frown.gif . Looks around for more elephant workshops to attend ... K9: lol well Im sure you know what I mean lol... *********************************************** K9: An Indian... K9: neutralise not socialise.... lol... K9: yes its Called Schutz phant... ************************************************ K9: If it works then it works! It depends the end goal for the dog, some bite work may not want the dog dropping the item that easy... In Kaviks situation were still building drive, so I dont do any focus work yet...

K9: Only private consults have been released at this stage...

K9: yes great, booked out until end of June, why not make it October lol... K9: you will send me one or you have sent me one? I havent got it anyway, have 30 left to go through..