Steve K9Pro

K9: its not written, like its not written that check chains or clickers are legal... Delta will say that & other things that have no backing....

L&P: I actually work in one, because I earnt the right to be there. I have two TAFE level diplomas, (how practical is that), and two funny things with (hons) after them. And now I am going for the one that will make me the laughing stock of pollies and the community. Never mind, without us lot, there would be no technology and we wouldn't have a computer to type on. K9: Maybe this will make things clearer for you. You have posted dog training information here. Dog training isnt a lab test, its a practical thing that is determined by temperament. This means that logic doesnt always play a part & lab tests rarely play a part... If you would like to be able to contribute to these type of discussions, my advice to get out of the lab is valid... K9: lol an e collar isnt a power station, used on lowest levels, its very passive... L&P: Thats the point. I will not not use something K9: & this is where our conversation must end, your talking theory, Im talking reality... You have never used a collar, but have apparently designed an electric fence... Totally different style of aid... Your talking from what you "think" may happen... Not what you have seen happen...

K9: It depends if Prey drive is the dogs PRIMARY drive... K9: It should be worth seeing how she is after a week of nothing else...

L&P: K9: well as we are all english speaking here I thought I would quote from the Dictionary of the Englishg language, not the Bio medical quote book... :rolleyes: Im not sure I like rough biomedical anything btw LP: K9: No it was serious question, but I will rephrase it... Q: Are you aware that there are other methods of training with the e collar than avoidance training? K9: thanks for that, but I wont really accept a dog training reference from a Tabloid newspaper.. K9: Ah now I see, you would really benefit from a demonstration of my e collar training, most people cant tell when the dog is being stimulated, the levels I use are so low, the dog can just percieve it... K9: well thats not going to happen... I can back up anything I say I can, if I say I can train your dog to do something or I can train without pain, I will be happy to demo it rather than say you will have to trust me... K9: certainly, stress is the aversion in this case... K9: thats what I just said? K9: Talking is a very limited means of communication. Hence my reluctance to accept "you will just have to believe me". Reading body language, even in humans as you seem to like the comparison, has been deemed a far higher level of communication than speaking... K9: This is why having only half the knowledge is a dangerous thing. Reading a dog body language is quite easy & accurate when one knows how. Using an e collar is very simple to do with great success... Comments like these K9: Each time the collar is fitted to a dog, the working level, ie the level the dog can just percieve the stim, is determined by the dogs first feeling of the lowest level. That level is not assigned to the dog for ever, in fact it may be adjusted up or down many times during a training session, good collars have many levels starting very low, meaning that going up a level is as little as a 7% increase over the previosu level... So whether or not frome season to season or not the fat content of a dog changes is irrelavant... LP: The big debate about perception of shock is in very brief terms is whether a very short high pulse is more effective than a longer low pulse. At the E fence level, the second option is more or less mandated due to EMI rules .(Radio and TV reception) . I don't agree with it at all, but that's another story. These points still hold for an E collar. Perception is also more difficult because while we have talked in terms of Voltage and current and introduced time, even with a dog's neck a more complex impedance is presented.It is very hard to get it down on a forum. It just isn't that easy. K9: you dont strike me as someone who has difficulty being technical.. but I agree with you there. Thats why strapping a collar on a dog & seeing what I do would be of huge benefit to you.. Many things look a lot different on paper than in practice... K9: I actually have the graph, I believe from memory the test was conducted in NZ... It isnt relevant to dog training at all, Im sure its meant as a graphical display for those that need something like that to feel better about collars... Its like how clean diesel smoke is compared to car exhaust, really irrelavant when you consider the soot... K9: can you prove it isnt? K9: Im not sure how minor it is when it is your central nervous system thats carrying the current. Its not a terminal, its a dog... You need to get out of the lab K9: we know, electricity takes the easiest path... They know that the earth probe completes the circuit, not the dog. (thats in conventional theory) K9: the best test is a FIELD test, you need to test one on a dog then talk to me... I think I have demonstrated Im not a total dummy in the field of electricity, but this is only what I have studied before I would use a collar on a dog. Thats the commitment I have to my work... K9: bring your dog along, thats when the magic happens... I see your new here, if you get the chance to attend a workshop, I will demo all I have said & more with pleasure.. Take Care..

K9: Ahh its all a bluff... K9: me too! K9: yes there will be, I be paying attention there myself.... You be fine, we all talk like that as we have spent time together... You be talking BS in 5 mins after the workshop :rolleyes:

L&P: K9: not sure where you got that from, but stimulation commonly means : http://""' target="_blank">stim·u·la·tion (stmy-lshn) n. Arousal of the body or of individual organs or other parts to increased functional activity. The condition of being stimulated. The application of a stimulus to a responsive structure, such as a nerve or muscle, regardless of whether the strength of the stimulus is sufficient to produce excitation. L&P: K9: This is why they are not called shock collars. The term unpleasant doesnt have to associated with pain either... L&P: K9: again, unpleasant doesnt mean painful. Also who said anything about avoiding anything? Surely your aware that there are other forms of training than avoidance training... L&P: K9: in the last post you seemed to be saying that what a human feels from an e collar is somewhat different to a dog & now they are similar? I would like to see the study, can you referemnce it please. Im sure though that the study was completed using an electric shock that would be deemed as painful? L&P: K9: stress is a part of all dogs training, good trainers know how to avoid creating stress & reduce it if it is present. Moisture only provides a different resistance value, the collars are designed not to deliver more or less current regardless of resistance. Nerve wiring is constant in the animals neck, once the collar is fitted the level at which the dog is trained can be determined & rarely, even given all of the examples, does it change... On this topic, could you tell me what procedure you feel would be correct in fitting an e collar & training the dog? L&P: K9: prepardness of the shock would be the dog anticipating the handlers actions, same with any training tool. Voltage is simply the pressure applied to the current, fixed & contrlled by the collar manufacturer & the level chosen. L&P: K9: whilst I am not calling you on your electrical experience, some of the things you have mentioned fall outside th realms of e collar training, & I do wonder how experienced you are with electricity in terms of dogs training. Maybe if you answer the above questions that will help me... L&P: K9: Congratulations on the design, but elevtric fences have a completly different design & operation to e collars. I also never said that e fences werent being made? L&P: K9: Ok great, but what you said previously was: K9: you indicate that there are charts that pretend that a dog feels the output as a human would, but now your talking in elecal output... L&P : K9: you are aware that e collars & electric fences operate on 2 different principles Im sure so why would they be governed by the same standards? L&P: K9: Ok this is where I see your confused, your electric fence uses the dogs central nervous system to complete the circuit & the ground is mother earth. E collars have both the negative & positive probe built into the collar, the circuit isnt the dogs central nervous system, but the section of skin between the two probes, approx 30mm... L&P: K9: perhaps it would be wise yto make those type of comments after yo know how much electrical education I do or dont have... Or perhaps after you read the section I wrote above on how each of the two devices work... L&P: K9: well perhaps you could supply some of the information I asked you for in terms of graphs etc first, the information doorway works both ways...

Land P: K9: this would depend on your own understanding of the word "shock" & the word "stimulation". L&P: K9: this is always dependant on the level used, pain does not have to be part of e collar training. L&P: K9: might you explain what you think these variables are? L&P: K9: I ahve never seen any such graph that compares pain levels percieved by dogs based on what an e collar feels like on your arm. Can you show me one? L&P: K9: As am I, but my reasons are:- 1. This thread isnt about e collars. 2. Electric fences do not operate any thing like an e collar. 3. I have never seen any of the graphs you speak of. 4. You seem to be jumping to conclusions on how the e collar works.. L&P: K9: well thats nice to know but you might seek some professional instruction on its use first.. Modern e collar methods dont include pain & dont mess with the dogs mind at all...

K9: after a week, ask Lablover how often this dog just hangs around.... The Nilif will be no ball for wrong behaviour... I cant help it that you dont understand... but then again it isnt your dog.... Keep in mind that the NILIF program, my version of it, is very effective for most dogs, nit all dogs....

K9: Starting the NILIF will imprint the dog with a picture (snapshot) of a new handler with their back turned, arms folded & not allowing attention for some different behaviours. Lablovers dog is a working dog by design, it will have loads of prey drive. So undesireable behaviours will come thick & fast when the dogs lives in drive peak... Its always best to train in the dogs primary drive, in this case prey. NILIF is a Pack drive program. I would rather she look like someone playing with the toy in the dogs snap shot...

K9: He never worried me even once, he is a great dog....

K9: not those breeds specifically, but when I see a dog that counters (kill shakes) the prey item I know it needs more...so I get a game of tug going...

Ali: K9: yes of course... LL: K9: yes ok... LL: K9: well this is one of those rare times when I dont use the NILIF... If I were you, I would as soon as this dog comes home, be the possessor of the magic prey item... Think about what this item should be very carefully though, I personally would not use a bumper... I would be using a tug style toy or ball on string.... I have some new balls on string that you will love! I would be driving your super high drive pup nuts with very few captures... I would do this & this alone for no less than 2 weeks.... Then start focus work.. The nilif will be taught in a different way via the item, it wont be nothing in life is free, but the prey item OF life is not free.. To this dog, nothing else will matter but two things, the prey item & the possessor of the prey item. Harness is a good idea for any dog that is feeling the tie out connection collar as a correction...

K9: I was home?

Chell: Just a quicky to say THANKS Steve for a great workshop today It was wonderful to see all the dogs make such great progress K9: your very welcome & thanks for the kind words. It was amazing just how good all the dogs were given that they (as you know) had only attended the Pre Training afternoon two weeks before, & Fin & Linda only a few days before.... Considering that high drive dogs are usually labelled "untrainable" & "too hyper active", their results & general behaviour were excellent! M: Also re questions - after the questions to Steve - "Are you married/" was asked I thought that the next one someone will ask will be "What are you doing tonight?" K9: Latisha: Yep, all good. I am stuffed.....and burnt, maybe I will listen to the "bring sunscreen" message one day! SAS: hahahaha I an so red....I never learn!!!! K9: Not that I wear any, but I did see you two cooking there... FD: Yeah, at the end of the day we had Ziggy the "Wunder-Hund" dangling from pull-toys and growling with glee as we tugged her (and she tugged us!) side-to-side with with frenzied vigour K9: Ziggy is a great dog, told many about her, huge potential. I would like to mention at this point that Gigis work with her was outstanding you will have to agree. 4 Days before the workshop I got a "its not working" email, I gave her a few tips & all that you seen Ziggy do is the result of only 4 days work..... JO: Thanks Steve for a fantastic training session! I had already started working with Jefe on it... so far I have gotten dizzy and the dog has bitten me twice... but we do have a fast sitz! K9: Remember to build plenty of drive before asking for any focus, spend a couple of weeks doing this... Being bitten is just part of the fun... JBBB: Thanks to Steve for clarifying a lot of stuff for us, and for the ball on a string door prize - Flame went mad this morning when it was brought out. Must be that tasty mintiness! K9: Thanks for the kind words, those new balls are my latest product I sell they are the greatest dog toy/prey item I have come accross for some time... Ali: Steve, thanks again for my lead... I'm over the moon. K9: Im glad you won it! The premium series leash will last you a lifetime, I have one 11 years old, being used every day, many times a day & its still a great leash... FD: Interestingly, upon winning the toy in drive, at first it took more than 5 minutes of constant helicoptor-walkies on a long leash for Flame to finally drop the toy! Has anyone else experienced this?? K9: common, show no interest in the toy & she will reduce this time.... Reddog 21: I am amazed that so much can be taught & learnt in such a short time. K9: as explained, Training in drive reaches a sub conscious level in the dogs mind, meaning getting 100% reliablility is quite an achieveable target... Remembering also that the dogs all worked off leash in a dog rich environment....! ***************************** Chell: Just a thought.... but perhaps we could set up another one later in the year after all dogs involved today have built their drive further and take it to the next level with more commands done in drive and with more focus. Even adding in some distraction etc and then trouble shooting from there. Anyways just a thought, but it would be a good way to build on what we did today. JBBB : I also think it would be great to have a follow-up workshop to see how the dogs have progressed, but it would also be good to see the spectator's dogs too, and see how they've all gone with the instructions. Ali: tried some prey work with Chop when I got home and he 'believe it or not' went kinda nuts. He loved it. Please count him in as a demonstrator for the next workshop. Gigi: Definitely should do a follow up in a few months K9: There is already a lot of interest in another day like this one, both here, via email & the great feedback at the end of the day... I am happy to organise another given all of you time to put training into practice & get a few new people in as well starting off... Thanks for all the great feedback, I really try to put a lot into these workshops & seminars so as to keep them interesting & fresh. Give the attendees something to see & something they can take home & use on their own dogs & friends dogs, all whilst improving the life of the dogs recieving the training... Its my goal to get accross not what to do, but why to do it & why it works... Thus giving people the chance to modify the methods to suit their own applications.... Just also like to say that the dogs in attendance could not have been better. I explained that I could have easily brought a few highly trained demo dogs but that was not the gaol. It was to show pet owners what pet owners could do with apparantly untrainable drives.... I hope we run the Advanced Training in Drive workshop (already named it lol), & as an appetiser, there will be more door prizes, & I will endeavour to demo one of my dogs as it seems such a common request....

Double post

JO: K9: Well there is never any short of ignorance when it come sto dog training.... JO: K9: Your 100% right, its complete abuse, but it is so common, its just become accepted... Can you imagine how these type of trainers would attempt to deal with the high drive dogs at the Training in drive workshop? & Note that all of those dogs at the workshop were well behaved, with the need for abuse... JO: K9: Its complete ignorance & nothing more... JO: K9: The imprinting training that I did for Jefe on the first day has taught him where his advantage lays & that has meant corrections are very rarely required... & yes everyone will experience the same thing with my leash walking program... JO: K9: You wont find it, I have searched... But your answer from the RSPCA was as close as you will get... Rules & Laws are rarely written telling you what you can do, more on what you cant do. JO: K9: Its 100% legal throughout the whole of NSW. Some clubs may have by laws that prevent you using them, but the most they can do is refuse you entry to the club. JO: K9: I have had a similar experience at the same place, my answer was call the Police, they will be here in like 4 hours at best, Im sure your call will be prioritised to the bottom, of the list by Mount Druitt Police, & if they do turn up & I am still here, you will look like a fool when they dont know what a prong collar is & then it turns out that they are not illegal. I finished off with "now go away". They did. The only laws I can find state that they cannot be used in Victoria... There is rumour that SA is in the same boat, but I cant find it anywhere. There is no laws against them in NSW, QLD, WA, NT, TAS or NZ. I supply them to people in these states all of the time... I am sorry that these people ruined your day, I am sure that having one of the better behaved dogs there would have irritated some. Best to steer away from these type of people anyway, they will never be able to offer you anything useful with your dog...

K9: Yep Im thinking of coming along too....

K9: Best to stop walking him then, yes that will make him more exciteable at the workshop but thats better that adding stress to any commands we will use in the future... Tell your husband to rest assured, he will walk on a loose leash...

K9: If you send me an email, I will add you to the Victorian list. These people get advanced knowledge of workshop releases. [email protected]

K9: he may well be, its not that he knows where the Alpha is in a strange house, he just knows it isnt him. He will have more confidence at home & on the leash, these are areas that he obviously has control... We will sort this fast.

K9: these are some great questions, Im sure SARDOG will respond with all the right answers. I will check tommorrow & if no answers will reply then...

K9: Oh its been thought about, plenty.. Not enough time & need someone to speak to about it... K9: This reminds me of another case study, its here if you would like to read. It was published in this months Control & Therapy, its a Vets magazine...

K9: well gee thanks for all the kind words, the magic trick is what is known as pack drive, this is all encompassing for the dog & makes the dog like being with you & hence not pull... Some steps are required to trigger pack drive but they dont take long to accomplish with most dogs... The Handlers workshop I ran recently saw many new trainers take control of totally new dogs to them & have them behaving very very well in no time at all, which made me very proud...

K9: well at least wait till I fix the dog! lol... K9: Bring him along if you like, I will demonstrate the program for you, & have him walk nicely for you... K9: warn him I'm coming! lol.. He will walk with zero leash tension for you in under ten minutes....

K9: your booked into the workshop Im doing in Vic, I will sort this for you & have you walking him with just one finger ..... Guaranteed....