Steve K9Pro

K9: Not to really side with or against anyone, these comments are I think worth a mention.

The only thing that will lower the drive naturally in the aggressive dog is the other dog running away.

I disagree, nor is it necessarily about lowering drive.

K9: I think sometimes it is about lowering drives in some dogs.

A: Even a very hard protection breed will not stay in defence drive for ever if the other dog doesn't go away. Nor should the dog be unresponsive to commands during defence drive if the groundwork is completed

correctly.

K9: True and the aggressive dog will eventually come to terms with the other dog being there, if the other (decoy) dog continues to provide the same level of distraction, if the aggressive triggers reaction in the decoy dog, you may not successfully wait out the aggressive dog. I find this a slipperly slope to work on in the early part of rehab.

K9: Coming into this late, very busy time of year but anyway...

Agility DOgs: Time specific - this is where I have an query. Do you think it is possible to set time frames on goals when dealing with escalating aggression?

K9: I dont think it is wise to set a time "limit" on pschological changes taking place but, being time aware helps us keep a rein on how well the specific program is working, so for me it isnt about how long it will take for the dogs feelings to change, but more what effect has occured in x amount of time on this program.

AD: In this case the handler is going to have to be good enough to prevent the unwanted behaviour by making sure the dog is ready and proofed before moving to the next step in the process.

K9: Be it thatI would guess that other dogs will be in the class or vacinity, I would also recommend a muzzle as no handler is good enough to be on the whole time, and if another dog runs over the aggressive dog, accidents can happen and it never goes down well when someones dog is aggressed upon in a class environment.

I had a look at the site link for Jafco and while it says they will happily refund any "unused" ones I would assume once you put it on to try the fit I would expect it would be considered "used" by then even if it didn't fit.......

K9: Just to clarify, if you get a Jafco muzzle from us or a Lightweight Plastic Basket Muzzle like SA is using, and on arrival you fit it and its a little to big or small, we will swap it for sure, the dog needs to have it fitted so that you can see if it does fit or not.

If you had it on your dog for a week, well that maybe another story, but fitting for size is certainly ok.

For some dogs that have irregularly shaped noses or jaws, we have had to swap a few times and even have custom made muzzles made, happy to work with you to get it right.

Can someone else tell me is there a particular "point" on the muzzle you measure to/from and what part of the muzzle you measure circumference from - thickest part at top?

K9: Ideally measure the circumference of the nose (dogs muzzle) at the stop, this is the flat section in front of the eyes, also measure from this point to the end of the nose and use our sizing chart.

I just wanted to encourage anyone who has a dog with any training issues.. and tell them that there is hope!!

5 days, a few training sessions with K9Pro, 35 hours of driving + one flat tyre later, and without exageration, I have a totally new dog. And I have a new confidence and new attitude towards my dog. I never thought this would happen, I didn't think things would be able to improve even 1/4 as much as they have!

K9Pro's way of training was very different to any other trainer we've been to and it worked and it was challenging and a lot of hard work, but not as much as I thought it would be to get to the level we were able to get to! Steve was so patient and where in the past other trainers had blamed me and told me I was doing everything wrong and basically wanted me to change my whole personality so my dog would listen to me, Steve showed me how I can get proper leadership and a much better relationship with my dog without having to change my whole personality. And my dog is so much happier!!!

We can now do things that I never thought were possible, I have a plan in place so I can do maintanance training and email support when I need it, and I'm able to actually ENJOY my dog again There's an understanding and bond between my dog and me that wasn't there before, and even just typing this I'm getting teary because I never thought this would happen. We got so much more out of the training than I ever thought possible.

So I just wanted to encourage people, if they have a training issue with their dog (or even if they just need some extra help to perfect something or whatever) then there is hope and I would definitely recommend asking K9Pro if they can help.

Steve you're amazing!

K9: Thanks BD, you guys brought your A game every day and let me push the envelope every minute to get you the best results I could hope for. Blayde worked hard and it all flowed well to get a great result!

Lets keep going with him and make sure the changes are permanent!

And thanks everyone else for the kind words, I really appreciate them. :D

K9: shoot me an email and I will give you a muzzle training program :rolleyes:

Steve have you tried other calming sprays like the one I posted above?

K9: I havent tried that particular one, but most "remedy" level products vary from no change to a very small change. They of course may be helpful and even more so in conjunction with other things.

K9: I have had the opportunity to complete quite a lot of testing with DAP.

Considerations:

DAP is helpful to a dog that has had a normal 0 - 8 weeks life schedule and environment, if there were trauma or stress in this period, I have found DAP either not helpful or aversive / unsettling.

The best most consistent results we have had are with the Diffusers, plugged in the home and left running constantly, the effects after a 3 week intro period have been quite good.

Tried the collars and the spray, with inconsistent results at best. There were a few dogs that showed really solid improvements but the majority seemed unaffected so we decided only to stock the Diffuser and not the spray or collar. This may change though if we find better results.

As for his "desperate" need for a behaviourist. Can I say overkill?

K9: Of course you can, but I really think that you may be drawing the bar of "when to see a behaviourist" a little high.

Now, if I were talking about a Border Collie kept in a small yard that had a tendency to round up the kids and nip them on the ankles would you all be

screaming for an assessment? Or a Newfie who refuses to let his owners kids near the pool and will climb on them to save them when they are swimming, would that

be cause for a behaviourist???

K9: yes I believe so, if you have a pet dog that is forcing humans to do things then it is a really good time to seek help. The breed really has no part in this decision or if the behaviour should be excepted (IMO)

Please, tell me where it is different that I have a terrier who is inherently bred to chase, catch and kill. This is what a Stafford is bred to do. I know this, I own this, I understand this. IF I didn't have cats, I would not be rehoming him.

K9: I think if you look at this from a BSL perspective you may not have put it this way... Many dogs were bred for things that arent permitted now, this doesnt mean that the dog should be excused from these behaviors, or that these behaviors cant be managed, redirected or trained out.

I am a stafford breeder of fifteen years who has never had a dog with a prey drive this high. This is the first dog I have brought in to my kennel that I did not breed. I have been in obedience for as long as I remember and been an instructor for 6 years. I am actively searching for a home that has no cats. Many, many dogs can't live happily with cats. Q is one of them. He does not have DA.

K9: If your still reading this, or perhaps for others benefit, this dog may not have an excess of prey drive which caused this issue, he could have a hyper active disorder that means that he cannot help himself. There are therapies, medicines and treatments that can help either cure or manage these problems and this is why a behaviorist should be consulted with.

Considering your experience in training and with this breed, I would be surprised to find this dog just displaying uncontrolled prey drive alone.

The problem I think most people see is that, put this dog in the same situation again, the same out come will arise.

K9: you have some great choices in Victoria but do look first at the guys who give their time here like Erny, Kelipie I, Cosmolo and Nekbet.

K9: the poison comes from the tick not the soap or other removal chemical. These DO work but when the tick can't breathe it's common for them to panic and release more poison, possibly killing the dog.

K9: the TOT isn't designed as a fix all, but it is a great start, it would be advisable to get some expert help here before matters get worse.

K9: yep you can't go wrong with Jane!

If you attempt to poison a tick...it injects more poison....that's my understanding anyway.

K9: Yep thats true in many cases.

Pulling it out is a better method I gather. I've pulled 4 off my dogs recently, using my fingernails or tweezers....and 4 off myself as well.

K9: Yes if they arent embeded sometimes your fingers will do the trick, if they are I used to use tweezers but found that I often had to dig pieces of tick out of the dog, so I guess pulling the tick in half was stressful and more poison would be injected.

K9: I have been using Tick Keys for a while now, they are truly very simple and there is one hanging off every key ring we have. The problem with putting a chemical on the tick is that the chemical does aggravate the tick which can cause the tick to release more poison into the dog, with paralasys ticks this is not good.

The tick key takes the ticks out complete, fast without stressing them or breaking them off in the dog.

Tick Key

K9: He actually discussed with the council the fact that he was going to fight the case with a temp assessment & we had asked him to get some paperwork together, references etc and armed with those and the fact that his dog wasnt guilty, they dropped the case.

Which is a great result

Now don't jump on me from a dizzy height.

I am playing Devils Advocate here.

What if the person lodging the complaint is in the right.......just food for thought.

K9: It is a good point, and worth thinking about however, we get a lot of these cases come our way and the vast majority of them are dogs that are far from deserving of this fate, it seems people with the "real" dangerous dogs keep them out of the spotlight.

Rarely is the judgement deserved...

Thanks. I think there must be steps before that though. The council wouldn't just take one owner's word against another surely. Is there a temp test?

K9: They actually will Ruth, the owners view isnt always part of the investigation... We deal with a lot of these and there are some steps your friend can take if they move now.

Get them to give me a call I can advise them what to do.

Have a look at this link also...

DDD 1

It is a very poor training session by some very lucky people, a seasoned civil dog would really have a ball with this type of treatment.

Literally.

K9: lol or two...

This is usually the sort of training you see when the trainer and decoy have matching white singlets, shorts and thongs on...

K9: Playing tug is almost a science, I have dedicated many years working on methods that get the dog to engage perfectly, it takes a lot of practice and concentration to get started.

I have been trying to play tug with my dog before we do obedience training - the trouble is that he wont just grab the tug and start playing I have to really swing it around, run around with it etc otherwise he is just not interested. What is now happening is that he keeps grabbing my hands by mistake and I am getting injured as his teeth are sharp - he lets go as soon as he feels that he has my hand but its SORE!!

Any suggestions? SHould I maybe try something else with him game wise?

BTW it makes no difference how long the tug is - I have one thats nearly a meter long but he still wants the part i am holding.

K9: I would suggest that you may have played too long and he learned to bite your hands to get control of the game, I would be using a thin, long tug and a pair of gloves so you wont flinch when he goes near your hand.

I would then start moving my hand to where he would bite and end the training session the second he touched your hand,.

K9: we cant really see what the decoy is doing, bad decoy work that adds frustration with no vent produces this type of behaviour in a high drive dog. There may not have been a decoy either as they hand what looks like a side arm back to the handler and I think I heard him say something about dry firing it, perhaps the dog ramps up under gun fire, even so this is far from anything close to what should be done...

The dog looks like a young dog with little training, lucky though because a serious dog would have crunched that fool who keeps climbing on top of it. I heard him getting instructions from somebody who was brave enough to tell him what to do rather than do it...

This looks like training from 20 years ago but looking at the Patrol car its recent. It is a very poor training session by some very lucky people, a seasoned civil dog would really have a ball with this type of treatment.

Hey K9, I have another question about your program again! (sorry couldn't post in socialisation thread due to it being too old)

If your dog is already "socialised" to other dogs can you still achieve a high level of reliability?

K9: Yep sure can.

Obviously, it will be much harder, but is it still possible? Is this achieved through drive training?

K9: It can be achieved a number of ways, thats the beauty of dogs, they are pretty adaptable to training, but yes it does make it harder / more time consuming and adds steps.

Can you have two dogs living in the same household, one socialised and one neutralised and trained in drive

K9: yep, no reason why not, but this question makes me wonder if you truly understand what each is, none of the concepts will effect pack structure in a negative way.

I think my next dog will be trained using your methods- neutralisation and drive, so i can try to avoid problems. Do you find that people who follow your program from puppyhood generally have good results, with reliable dogs?

K9: That of course is the goal, but there is always a chance that things can go wrong from genetic inception to death, its that uncertainty that keeps us guessing!

Many people that have working dogs have used these methods with great success, more success even than pet owners I would think as their routine is more regimented and social outings less...

So they are illegal?

I though k9 pro used them and he is in NSW?

Maybe K9 could clarify for us?

K9: Yep not permitted for use in NSW, lucky I travel so much eh...

A: yes i move in sick circles if that is what you intend to infer.

K9: No not at all.

she lived in the suburbs. she was surrounded on two sides by a school so barking wasnt a problem there. BUT THE ONE neighbour she did have decided one day to call the RSPCA, Animal Welfare and the council ranger. all three turned up same day half n hour apart.

she was terribly distressed by the out of the blue to her complaint.

turned out they had a new baby that woke to the slightest sound so they did the biscuit.

she was given an ultimatioum.. debark or destruct every single one of em.

being a totaly dreatfull person she complied with the debark order as she or some odd reason didnt want to kill her dogs.

yep some sick unethical people out there.

n yes every single one of them could bark. it was the pitch lowered not them rendered totaly mute.

sorry to dissappoint you NOT.

K9: I am sure that she was in a situation she thought that was the best option, and I agree with debarking before euthanizing any dog. The reason I am pointing out other aspects of debarking is that they do exist. The problems I mentioned are well known amongst vets and behaviorists.

I am sure that council etc took a dim view of someone who had 20 barking dogs in suburbia.

I am in no way disappointed with your post and as I said, I dont disagree with Debarking under the right circumstances, which is when the dogs owner knows the possible outcomes and risks.

I am sure you wouldn't be against that either.

so i gather u can be added to the list of those u dont agree with you, must be bad people eh?

K9: lol perhaps there is a list? but I dont have one.

so that makes me one of em, n so its then ever so highly ethical to insinuate im bad and to be not believed i gather?

agree or be tarred as unethical, is it?

K9: Sorry I have no idea what you have written here lol..

MMM, it is a never ending quest to replace the spray (which is not cheap) and

the batteries! Been there, done that; some dogs just dont give a flying flute

about the spray at all.

K9: Yes this is true on both counts, in our own tests spray collars are about 70 - 75% effective.

Next was the shock collar and even that is proving a battle.

My mind is firmly made up to have her debarked, it's a case of finding a vet

that will do it and the time to organize it and take her to such a vet.

This is one dog that barks at a fly farting.....

K9: There are good and bad ones and the behaviour takes time to extinguish, if it didnt the aversive would be so fierce it would be problematic. I might suggest looking into why your dog is barking at as little as a fly, this might help This link