Steve K9Pro

K9: Its correct in saying that there are many more than one training method, but when it comes to saying that GSDs are different to Greyhounds, I dont agree with this in essence, I believe training is temperament specific, not breed specific. There are hard shepherds & soft shepherds, hard & soft in any breed. Training should be designed around the temperament of the dog in front of you.... I have met many a trainer that has a method for a certain breed, these people never seemed to achieve much with any thing but the main stream of the breed. Moving on though, depending on how much time this dog is in the pen, this alone could be causing stress, thus causing whinging... On the other end of the scale, the dog could have discovered that whinging results in getting attention, & is not stress related at all.. I would default back to a positive training step before trying a negative one... I would excercise this dog heavily for 2 weeks, with lots of runs etc & see what impact it will have... If no results & would design a plan around correcting it.

K9: I will have the dog retrieve an article so that it can "buy" the reward off me. I find that when you send away the dog to fetch the reward, it can create a "conflict" that can be hard to resolve. As you are picking up the reward & then throwing it, the dog has learned to "field", this means he is on the way to where he thinks you will throw the reward. I would be training him as I have showed you, teaching the bring back then the send away & swapping for the reward, this will sort your problem.

K9: Start with the TOT, it will tune the dog ino you & then when yo say "no" it will mean something to the dog other than your taking away the reward he wants.. Thats a good starting place... K9: thats great to hear...

K9: So, my TOT worked again.. Good to hear... K9: dont let the dog run the triangle, after the release command, the handler goes inside & comes back in ten minutes & takes away the bowl, eaten or not. The dog will get the message...

K9: dogs with nerve or socialisation problems will have problems going into an positive drive, such as prey, food, pack, play etc as survival often outweighs them... Some more bonding, switch off playing with toys at home now, only play with them in the park & see if the absense of play a home inspires your dog to experiment & go into prey drive.. There is a whole drive building stage, teaching focus & communication tha is part of my program that helps with all of these problems...

K9: 100% agree with you there.. All I was trying to do is help the dog.... I guess many of them have put a dog down or recommended someone do so, so me turning up with information that compromises what they say or have done, probably doesnt go down to well.. However, it wasn mean to be about stepping on toes, it was mean to be about the dog... Any of you guys who have worked with me will have heard me sa how I have made all the mistakes in the world, all on the way to getting better.. K9: I was asked to comment by someone who read the thread, I just clicked a link.. In my first posts, I didnt realise I was in the rescue forum, but did wonder about the absence of educated opinions lets say... I know if this had been in the training forum you guys would have helped... 30 Minutes with Erny, Cosmolo or Kelpie -I (or a few others here) would have had a definitive answer.... K9: More than that, makes me question why I would ever post advice here again... K9: Maybe not "no rescue" but not many would... I always wonder why when so many dogs come good in minutes.... K9: Something else about this work is that you never stop learning, which means it never stops costing you.. I spend thousands each year on books, videos, seminars & I know you guys do too.. I donate time, lessons, consults, equipment etc plus forums & yahoo lists all for no gain at all... There has to be a limit though.... K9: I agree with you, but I guess there are so many genuine people out there its hard to let a few ruin it for everyone... But I can tell you I pos a LOT less here han used to. I would also like to say that I do read other trainers posts here, & I do get something out of them, a different perspective sometimes, another view, a great idea or two, so we all gain...

K9: I would love to come to the ACT in 2007, I have so many asking for a workshop etc, I guess it will have to go on the drawing board. When I am there I would of course run a few consults.. Thanks for the kind words, but I really mean it when I say the owner makes the difference... I have built some all but air tight programs for curing aggression, but they arent worth my breath if they arent put into place a home... Like I said, I asked Rachelle to do some things with Ellie at home, those things have all to do with leadership, trust & communication. Nothing to do with dogs... Then when I get he dog back here, I can use those strengths to push the envelope with the dog, at best its a team effort.. The praise should go to her, she listens to every detail & puts them into place. Her goals were also realistic. I have been doing this a while, this is her first time....we have to remember that.

K9: wow, really, how do you know? not what have you heard, how do you know...

K9: lol Oh man, Im am sure he has mentioned it a few times....I cant imagine being anywhere near Andrew after that! :D On the subject, I dont think that training a 100% reliable recall is possible without aversives if the dog already has a high value for something, eg a running rabbit.. I also would like to add that even with holding food or your attention is an aversive to a dog that wants it...

K9: Heel = find the leg..

K9: If your dog has already been trained how to win the reward over you, then some of these may be required, if you start with a pup, likely you will need none... Depends heavily on the assesment made on the dog at the time... But always wear appropriate foot wear. lol...

K9: Its applied through the concepts of reward manipulation. K9: yes a few... K9: Thats a hard question to answer, if I tell you about those dogs that have won since converting to my concepts, those dogs may have won anyway, who is to know.. This example may be of more relevance, I worked with some guys maybe a year ago, 2 day workshop, on the second day, we got to run the participants trained dogs. At the addition of this concept, problems that had bee arising in training, such as mouthing, non stopping on the whistle, stress related issues such as vocalising etc, refusing to hand over the birds etc all were all showing signs of improvement in only 2 - 3 runs...

K9: ok, think of this concept... K9: or what? They recieve some unpleasantness as we have discussed.... So the dogs dont really "want" to stop as much as they feel they have to to avoid the consequences... Enough reps with the dog recieving no consequences usually returns attitude to the dog, I agree.. But when I train in drive, I want the dog to stop in prey drive, not exit prey drive though avoidance... I think this drive swicthing & taking your mind off the job (& puting it back on yourself) takes the clear head away from the dog... & I further think that if the trainer is simply asking a lil too much too quick, more consequences are issued & drive is lost... I like to take more control of the reward & have the dog stop as it believes it will have a better chance to get drive satisfaction, by listening to me... K9: Some of the methods I have can take some of the pain out of training....

K9: Your very welcome, all those smiles from you guys at the lesson was thanks enough though.. K9: yes, & thats the thing to remember, Rachelle has worked hard, it isnt about what happens on my training field, its the strengths that are built when the dog is with the owner.. Each session is about me testing her & seeing how far she has come & then making program adjustments to work on at home, the pic shows the results. We only started working on the dog aggresson at last consult (8 weeks ago), previous to that it was the aggression toward strangers.. These guys have come a long way in 8 weeks.. Just to add some detail here, I can take a dog on the leash & lets call it, "over work" the dog in obedience so that I can get it near another dog with out aggressive outbursts, & this is very valueable because it is therapy for both the owner & the dog. But this last lesson, I didnt handle the dog at all & there was no work at all in obedience, Ellie was quite relaxed after being introduced to my dog, choosing to lie down in the shade next to him, wag her tail etc etc... Once she was relaxed they were let off leash & she remained the same, nice & relaxed for the remaining hour. Rachelle never slacked off or lost sight of her goal & what was quite a serious problem is on its way out the door!

K9: well yes they were however, it wasnt so clear & usually isnt unl someone poins it out... K9: I guess what happens is, the dog makes a mistake by trying to satisfy its own drive, the people want that mistake gone & their main priority is just that, & not maintaining drive... K9: thats a great test! Can I ask, why did they stop? why would they when they are so driven... I believe there are only two reasons why a dog would stop under these conditions...

K9: See that doesnt have to be the case, I dnt use a prong collar to add force, but reduce it. I seen a dog lately that was being trained on a prong, the dog was not responding favourably & he corrections were lets say on a scale of 1 - 10, 10 being the highest, maybe 8 or 9. I took the dog & used the same collar with level 1 - 3 corrections, & gained control easily.

K9: yep its all in the details... K9: no domn believe it is, when you have a dog in high drive ytrying t figure something out, there are no signs of avoidance.. K9: well they may get over the over advertised "slink", but even a head bob on the sit command is a sign or aversive training... & no it wont go away... it has been chained int he learning of tha command. K9: I think that if this is the case, you didn need aversives in the first place. Dogs taught the drop on the run through drive won slow, down, they drop fast, & it only get faster. I have no problem using aversives, none at all. The rule is though that they are applied to stop a behaviour, not teach one. K9: just so you know, none of my comments were adddressed at you, your dogs or your training as I domn know,just a discussion of methods in general. K9: I worked with a great bunch of poeple a while back & some more just recently who train gun dogs with that exact line of thought. There were a whole bunch of problems with their dogs, little things, like the whistle stop etc... All of these problems started small, & got worse the more pressure was added. I took a motivational approach to clear up he dogs head & the changes in front of our eyes were quite good... Sometimes training methods have problems built in, & every time you train a problem will arise that you will have to fix. K9: I havent seen this, I havent seen people "mindful of not being overly physical" at all, I see people pushing to get results at all costs often, & then seeing tha they have lost drive... K9: who controls this? This is a question I have asked many people, loe to hear your view... K9: maybe the distance will inhibit the learning..lol.. K9: how often do they try? It isnt so much about zero aversives, is more about the use of aversives & the design of a training program that doesnt have the same re occuring need for correction in it. The standards for gun dogs I agree are high, but there are higher standards required in other dog activities & I have seen those trained without the need for aversives as we know them.

K9: K9: I cant see where I said that a all.. K9: the complete post 21 says K9: I cant see where I said main focus either? Details. Myszka, details.... Any club that runs a class for trialling is a "trialling club", as the description "trialling" is a descriptive one.. Are yo trying to tell me tha every club tha are teaching trial steps are producing passes & a good percenage of passes every year?

K9: I cant see where I said that a all..

K9: I guess its the same when it comes to handing over the quarry, not short cutting to the poison bird, cheating the water etc etc... There seems to be a lot of "unpleasantness" or the threat of, floatng around training fields. We all know that aversives lower & sometimes extinguish drive. Thats what they are designed to do. So if I personally buy a dog full of drive, & want to use that drive to work that dog, I steer away from methods that reduce, inhibit, lower or extinguish the very thing I bought the dog for.... but thats just me. There will always be some aprehension around the areas of unpleasantness, aprehension is a sign of aversive training. before I finish this topic, i would like to add just this.... Its about Magic... People love magic because they cant see how the trick was done.... Once the magician shows them, its not magic any more, the mystique, or lets say magic, is gone.... I think high end dog sports or working dogs should look like magic.... You shouldnt be able to see avoidance on the dog, I dont even like hand signals for close work, I want people to watch & see not one clue as to how I got the dog to do that, when its done right, people call it magic... When the dog ducks it head or drops its ears on hearing the command, returns slowly, doesnt stop on the whistle, it is a clear indicator of whats on the dogs mind, when that is obvious, the magic is gone..

K9: If the goal is the next retrieve, why would the dog ever stop on a whistle? Stop going after the goal? why?

K9: My point is, I consult for a few clubs, Australia wide, not just Sydney. problem, members leaving all the time... reasons found, club teaching trialling steps, people wanted well behaved pet, or had a dog that wasnt capable of passing the higher titles, clubs goal wasnt members goal = members leaving, club no titles... So m answer to DD question, was to show that just because people are attempting to trial with a dog not intended to trial, doesnt mean success...

K9: well the real answer is "maybe". remember this detail... K9: I would be locating the dogs primary drive, & what ever that was, using it as the motivator yes... Thats the very basic program anyway...

K9: this is just a basic description of how the motivational retrieve is tAught. The success & or failures are in the details, most people are in too much of a rush to look closley at the details. K9: did anyone say they did? K9: how would a list of clubs that have seen failing Australia wide help you? It wouldnt, just keep holding your breath lol...

K9: just hold your breath until it gets there.... Maybe you missed the part I am sure you wont have to look far to find a club that trains trialling steps with few to no passes...