Steve K9Pro

K9: I would like to add that, some peoples goals of un leashing their dogs & letting their dog run over to a large group of un leashed, therefore uncontrolled dogs (in most cases), is something I think needs a big rethink.. More than half of the dog aggression problems have resulted because people tried to do this in the first place & their dogs have been attacked. Pack order means the Alpha meets the other dogs Alpha first then the other dogs meet... There are only a select group of dogs that will ever be fine with this.. People are putting their dogs at risk if they attempt this & if they believe that this is the goal to say that they have a cured dog, no one will provide a cure for any dog, ever...

K9: No, what I mean is that, driven dogs find the act rewarding in itself, even if it is fear aggression.. What you gave was an example of how a conditioned action that is intrinsically rewarding can over come fear...

K9: dogs groom their Alpha by "muzzling them", licking the lower part of the muzzle & jowels. Often dogs going into pack drive will lick their lips, as this is happening when your praising (giving a pack drive reward), I would suggest its that...

K9: good point, most behaviours that are not acceptable are highly driven, which also makes them intrinsically rewarding...

K9: Yes, of course... K9: certainly, factors such as the time the family has available, the risk the dog poses to the family etc etc.. K9: I personally dont draw the line at the dogs actions, I draw it dependant on the complete pack situation. K9: yep exactly that... K9: no, genetics & the dogs health can play a major role. I have been brought some of the worst dogs on the planet, & taken on dogs that many other turn away & have a very high succss rate. There have been dogs brought to me that werent that bad in terms of problem size, but I recommended euthanasia as the situation was not a workable one... ********************** K9: I am not a fan of those who say "its best for the dog that we put to sleep". Its never best for the dog, it might be the only option or the smartest decision... K9: Agreed, I have had people come to me that were incapable of carrying out the training, for reasons such as thy feared the dog... One such case was when I met the client at the gate, I asked where the dog was, she said it was in her car & she began to cry & said she was frightened to get the dog from the car. This owner + this dog = no win... This dog + capable owner = good chance.. K9: When doing my time as a novice trainer I was with a behaviourist who was called out to a shelter to assess some dogs.. These dogs had been seized by the Police from a dog fighting organisation. There were 5 pups, their mother & a large male, breed is not important. We did the assessment on the male, it was thought with some work he could be rehabbed, but there was a high risk. We ran out of time & returned the next day. There were only three pups left, they had killed the other two pups & they had attacked the mother when feeding & opened her up quite badly. They were 7 weeks old... We took one out & it wriggled & was constantly aggressive, it was a while ago & the technique the Behaviourist used was to put the pups head under water so that it would stop being aggressive when its life was slipping away. It never stopped fighting him, he pulled it out & advised the pups be euthanised. The dogs they were bred from were trained fighters for generations. There was nothing good left in these genetics. K9: Agreed, but often someone honest will let you know your chances of success very quickly.

K9: so you havent given up then....

K9: I am sure you know I am not the only person in this country who has a good reputation. There are some people who I can help as they can focus on the job at hand, & there are some people I cant help as their focus is always elsewhere... I dont think there will be any benefit for either of us to continue this discussion here.

K9: There are several drugs on the market that can assist in training... This is the key phrase you need to be aware of... First we do all we can with behaviour modification & then consider drug therapy as a way to get more effect of those programs if anxiety for example is so severe we cannot get the dog into a workable state. Adding drug therapy alone will have no long term effect on behaviour.

K9: "what ever reasons" is what w are discussing... K9: so you gave up? The first strategy I give people is the easiest one I think that will work, on occasions that doesnt work for all dogs so people come back to me for a follow up & we change that strategy as many times as neccessary until we find a suitable out come... K9: which is fine with me, from what I read in your first post I got the impression that this was an unfixable dog, when I can tell you that this wasnt the case. K9: I will just repost my words from earlier...

K9: people come all the time feeling defeated & unhopeful, its not uncommon at all. K9: I am sure she will be able to update you with her progress...Thats not my position to discuss other clients cases. K9: This is no easy task for anyone, but far from impossible. I did successfully handle your dog using my entire male dog as the decoy, I think you will agree that it went very well.. K9: which as I said was your primary goal at lesson one... K9: There is only so much I can do in one lesson. Your dog needs some further work but I am not sure how much you want to discuss here... I would advise you to look at what you have achieved. In some of those countless workshops, you had Rex running off leash with all manner of other dogs in close proximity, allowing him him leash pre K9 Force was not possible without problems occuring. Others have said how far he has come along, you should focus there. I believe if dog aggression rehabilitation was your only goal, it would have been achieved by now...

K9: JG you have done a perfect job of explaining things... People should also know that the second link I gave IS the story of JayGee, they live in Qld & with the help of a great trainer in Queensland, myself & some great commitment from JayGee & Family, the results are something to be proud of..

K9: A "cure" is known as total rehabilitation & will not always be possible dependant on many factors from genetics, age of the dog when rehab begins, the age the dog was when it started displaying symptoms, how long the problem has been there untreated to the dedication of the dogs owner. Fear aggression for example can have the action side of "aggression" cured but the fear may remain, dependant on the reasons I gave above. Having said that, when people bring me a dog that is displaying fear aggression, if they focus on rehabiliating that problem only, come back for the follow ups & stick with the advice given, commonly they do quite well. See http://www.k9force.net/index.html?row2col2=grace.html & http://www.k9force.net/index.html?row2col2=jeddah.html ******************************* K9: which I may add were to cover various topics most not in any relation to dog aggression... K9: to be exact 1 & 1 only lesson with Rex where the topic was aggression, you did have a second lesson but that was on training in drive & might I add you had several other goals at the first lesson. That first lesson was about 2 - 3 years ago.. Your primary goal was getting a recall, you felt at the time the aggression was uncureable... As I remember, you also said the reliable recall would never happen.. Your countless you tube clips you have posted on here & the countless times you have had your dog off leash stand testimony of the recall you were taught... ******************************* K9: much of the advice I give people is to stop training other disciplines, like show training, showing dogs, retrieving, dumbell retrieval, obedience club training, training in drive etc etc & stay away from areas where there are large numbers of dogs where the dog in question can "practice" the aggression. Things like programs to improve leadership & control are also given. Most people will follow this advice, some dont, they want to do everything the same as they did in the past & expect change, that is not going to happen.. The other thing that is very important is for people to recognise the improvements they have made...

K9: Just one more lol... K9: Very long down stay to me is something over say 5 minutes. When I want to do this, I teach it traditionally so that the dog goes out of drive when told to stay. This makes for an easier compliance & long stays in drive tend to turn on the dogs nerves. As I think I have mentioned earlier in this book, lol, I use commands in english for out of drive requirements,German commands for in drive requirements. If you use the oldest training rule that I believe in "the command must be an opportunity for the dog to earn a reward", The command given should convey to the dog what it will get if it does the work right. I would say to my dog platz (German command for down), my dog would expect a prey reward, toy, man etc... So would drop in drive, give full focus & be ready to spring. If I say drop, the dog will expect a pack drive reward (praise or physical attention) & will go down but not be waiting to spring.... K9: I would expect a dog in competition to do the required stay in drive, thats not so long & I want the dog focussed & ready to explode toward me out of the stay... I dont want the dog relaxed, sniffing the other dogs, getting distracted etc. To combat this it would take more frequent use of aversives which in turn would lower drive & cost me points elsewhere... Does that make sense?

K9: In reality, the "average" time would be something that is looked at in retrospect, in other words after a training session. If your asking what "should be" the average, I guess I feel it is goal dependant. In an ob trial it would be desireable for the dog to easily be able to complete the complete pattern with expecing a reward. But I do feel that verbal markers throughout the pattern would help with motivation. In training I would be increasing the amount of excercises the dog has to do to pay for the item, & when I got to the desired results, I would start randomising when the item is given & randomise when I would build a little drive. I find this keeps the dog on its toes rather thanbecoming complacent because it knows the item is not due yet... K9: Thanks Julie, that means a lot to me to hear that from you...

K9: best thing you can do is measure the amount of effort she will go to now, compared to before... remember that frustrtion is the number one drive building tool.... K9: Let us know how you go, or if your confused, post up what yor trying to achieve & I will give you some pointers...

K9: There are a million ways to train dogs, few of them are crack pot theories lol.. But if I were the dog, & I just couldnt get it, & you step in & give me an easy solution to win the reward, I wouldnt be too pressed to push hard next time... Thats one thought.. When training in drive, I would (if the dog was confused) break down the excercises in smaller, bite sized chunks. If the dog at any time gets stressed, I would build some drive by putting movement into the toy, this will clear the dogs mind....Then asking for another attempt at the excercise.

K9: It would be better to see Ben, than a dog that you think acts like Ben... There could be the smallest difference & it would make the biggest difference to the advic, but if your dog was the dog in the video I would say.. 1. Steps to training the retrieve have been missed. The dog should be taught to hold first. Then bring, then fetch. 2. The reward was given before the dog did anything... 3. The trainer is trying to add the finish before the steps above are solid so this is confusing the dog. 4. The dog from the finish point is given the fetch command, he goes out but does not return the item, the owner gives the dog a pat on the side & fetches it for the dog lol... 5. The dog has enough drive but is confused as to what is required to buy some food from the owner, see steps above... 6. The dog seems to be more interested in chasing the thrown item than the food, perhaps the wrong motivator is being used. 7. Finally, repeating the same excercise that the dog fails in is not helping...

K9: One thing to be aware of with electric fencing is that, the wire itself is a positive looking for some way to get to earth. When your dog touches this, its central nervous system completes the circuit to earth.. Containment systems have two probes on the collar, one negative & one positive, meaning approx 25mm of skin is the only path of the electricity...

K9: Best email me, we have been so busy of late, website going through update so they kist we have are not on there, email me & I can give yo the options, I think we have better prices than you will find anywhere... [email protected]

K9: I will be releasing what dogs we have, what their problems are & maybe even imbed some stuff on my website, but this will all happen after I have informed the group, its only fair they know first. I can tell you that the dogs have multiple problems including aggression from both ends of the scale...

K9: the systems dont keep other dogs out, that responsibility belongs to the owner of the other dog. I dont think that Terrier would have made it if it came into my yard either, my dogs are not in any way dog aggressive, but it is their territory...

K9: & this is why I always say "training is temperament specific, not breed specific"...

K9: Thanks so much everyone who emailed me about their dogs, we have chosen 2 dogs that we think will greatly benefit from this course & the attendees (who have already been chosen as well) will have their work cut out for them. I will be happy to give some updates along the way if anyone is interested. We were inundated with dogs & people wanting to do this course, so I am certain we will be running it again...

K9: we have a few brands that we sell, when installed correctly they are very effective..

K9 I generally go one of two ways, either I play tug with the dog or just drop the ball into the dogs mouth, some dogs find one rewarding, not so much the other. If your dog looses interest he or she may benefit from a game of tug, or maybe your dog needs some more drive development excercises..