Steve K9Pro

K9: Then the dog understands you provide the rewards & a little more or less eye contact wont hurt...

K9: ok so, do you ever place the food on the ground between you & the dog & expect a retrieve of the db?

K9: what do you use for a reward for the retrieve?

K9: once the basic version of the program is installed, its quite easy to teach the dog only to check in with you throughout the excercise, not watch you all of the time... Thanks, I think I understand. Could that checking in become peripheral rather than direct? and how would you go about making it so? K9: It happens naturally & you can advance it by using a few hand signals or verbal commands depending on if you want more or less eye contact. The program isnt designed to keep the dog looking at you, the first step is to look at you only, in fact when I want to train the attention I train it in two steps which is a step in training the dog the formal heel... If I dont in a case have a need for the formal heel I dont train the attention step either.

I was thinking about agility Ness, where I never want eye contact from my dog, other than the release from the start line. I am just thinking about starting to train Shine & want ZERO eye contact from her right from the start. With the little we have done, she is only being rewarded for forward focus, never for looking at me, so I am wondering if this would be at odds with the TOT program? Could also apply the same idea to herding, but I don't think I will ever get any eye contact there from Trim regardless of what I do. I have seen other dogs though whose checking in with their handlers is a problem & can even be a danger. K9: I guess the problem is your trying to do it all with one program in its basic version, when really its a foundation program that yo build on.. I would need to arrange the steps to align it with your specific goals. I have never had a situation in which checking in with me was anything but a sure way to keep the dog under my guidance..

K9: marker training is very effective, but you dnt need a clicker & you will find some dogs that find the click quite aversive... K9: It would be nice if all dogs responded to gentle persuation but simply some dont... K9: This is the simple program that many trainers supply that simply wont work for all dogs... The stopping in the face of the reward can often lead to frustaion which elevates the dogs drive & will see it pull harder on the leash... K9: In reality your not teaching the alternative behaviour that you want, which is walking next to you, your teaching the dog to stop & or sit... K9: there isnt anything simple at all, one size fits all programs tend to fall down when you need to work with larger numbers of dogs... Like I said, we havent seen the dog so we cant really say what will work, or what wont...

K9: when this happens, the dog isnt clear on what it needs to do to earn the reward, it believes the default action of looking at you will solve that problem, which isnt a bad thing but you need to teach the dog how to follow a re direction from you to what you need the dog to look at...

K9: once the basic version of the program is installed, its quite easy to teach the dog only to check in with you throughout the excercise, not watch you all of the time... The behind the scenes goal is to have the dog be able to control & utilize its drive with the goals of the Alpha intact.

K9: Thanks for the kind words Rom, credit goes all to you & your awesome RB though, I just talked you though a method in reality...

K9: The chain is stronger than nylon, thats where I have seen others break when the dogs lunge.. Use his crate to get him to stay when you can watch him all of the time, or it will weaken the strength (meaning) of the command if he is successfully breaking it all the time...

K9: Very hard to see where your training is at without seeing where your training is at. For the couch though, if you dont want the dog on the lounge, where do you want the dog to be? Showing the dog what you do want is more important than what you dont want... Consider crate training your dog or providing a mat to lay on, then reward that action & begin to discourage the lounge & chair action... Head halters often do that, see my article on what I have found.. http://www.k9force.net/index.html?row2col2=halter.html Also we have martingales with chain in place of the nylon that others use... I have found this a much stronger alternative. http://www.k9force.net/index.html?row2col2=mart.html

I do understand what you're saying K9... I normally mark his attention or other behavioural correctness in other exercises with a chirpy "good" or "gooooood booooy". I wanted to signify his behaviour on the video with minimal other noises / encouragements. With the training I do with him, I signify the "yes" as if he was asking me for permission whether it's eating or taking an article from my hand etc. Good points you make though. K9: Thanks, saying good, yes any type of recognition that marks the correct behaviour at the correct time, even a clicker is part of the communication this program help people build with their dogs. yes can be the release, doesnt have to be the marker. I have chosen yes & ok as they are part of what we as humans use every day so we understand the concept of them, making it easy to teach it to the dog. Later on in the advanced program (as this one is the default starting point only), I also add a "no reward marker" in which we can add even more communication.. So those on my advanced program use the words "yes, no & ok". Most common words we use daily... I designed this program so that the uptake would be as easy as possible for the new trainer & I have to say that, I have been sent thousands of emails, videos & pictures of people & their dogs doing very well in the TOT, great to see the happiness in the people & the eagerness in the dogs...

K9: nope, making him do something isnt the idea here, we want this to be an inuitive program, not a force program.. I would cut out all treats, feed him every second day a small meal & no more. The food is left available to eat for 3 minutes, then taken away.. Add some nutrigel / nutripet to his diet to stimulate his appetite & see what he does... Over all, just monitor his weight & make sure he isnt loosing..

http://www.k9force.net/index.html?row2col2=develop.html have a look at this article, see where your pup is in its development, Selective Deafness can play a big part... If this is however how your pup has been since day 1, then trying to get his fod drive working can be very helpful.. Can you video yor pup in action? Is he being fed in the same location every day?

K9: that is some nice focus on your pup, but.... Your using the yes as the release, this will cause problems later on & the other issue is that you are not marking the right behaviour (the attention). The pup is sitting there wondering if it is doing the right thing...

K9: Just to make some use of this lengthy thread for the OP in regards to certain tools.. Prong collars are known to increase the control some people have over their dogs, some people who have aggressive dogs become so nervous that they trigger the dogs defence drive just from their actions, offering these people an increased level of control allows them to relax & present themselves to the dog in these circumstances as the Alpha & the problem can be under control much quicker... E collars used correctly can efficiently & emotionlessly convey to the dog the behaviour it is exhibiting is not acceptable, this can be done at distances over 1 mile (1600m) with many collars, this is not something you can replicate with any other tool... This story tells how one such dog (of hundeds) was saved using the painless stimulation of a modern e collar.. How we saved Graces Life.. These are not tools that are required in every case, but they can help in many cases.

K9: How does he know? K9: raise your arm up with the drive training toy & see if he will get into action to go fetch it, if he does, he thinks that you have two cues, one is the "ready to go" & the other is the sight of the toy... When people run my drive training programs, I make sure they never thrw any balls/toys...

K9: No need to warn anyone of this, as it simply not true... In fact I did recognise the correct part of the original post.. You might warn people that some people have difficulty reading though... There are no games played by me, I could care less how mnay posts people make or who they are, if the information is untrue, I will say so... I will never feel threatened when the quality of information is at that level either...

K9, I started, once again, to reply to every single statement where you have misquoted me or purposely misunderstood me. In reality this is a complete waste of my time & I am sure yours as well, since I am sure you will continue to attempt to discredit me K9: I a sorry you took it this way, I wasnt attempting to discredit you, rather point out that a certain part of the information you were giving was incorrect. Let's just recap...this is what I wrote that apparently made you feel so threatened that you needed to launch into an attack of my credibility: K9: I was not threatened by you nor did I attack you, you would know if I did... The reason I entered this thread was to share my views on how I would treat a fear/anxiety issue. K9: & proceeded to tell us what you would not do? From memory, you agreed with what I wrote, but felt the need to defend your territory after I made passing reference to tools that it seems you use as part of your training methods. k9: I will remind you again tha a tool is not part of a training method.. Its a tool.. I was not defending my territory at all, I called you on a part of what you wrote as it is clearly out of your experience & the information you gave is outdated... One of the biggest assets I believe any dog trainer can have is the ability to understand (and not purposely misunderstand, as is the case here) K9: So now your ass u ming what my intention was, it seems you have not got he greatest asset a dog trainer can have as claimed by you, the ability to understand... what is being communicated to them by clients or peers. K9: well your peers on this forum (other credible trainers) have been tryimng to educate you & you clearly have your one sided view. So it very much appears to me that you have ideals of how one should behave but cant adhere to them... K9: why dont you search what my clients write, they are all over this forum... wont take you long to find them... and blatant attempt on your part to discredit another trainer whose views or methods you know nothing about. K9: I know what you wrote regarding electrical impulses directed to the dogs brain, & this is completely wrong... The other section of your post I agreed upon which I believe was competely right. Interesting you say that I am the defensive one but your focussing on the negative... I am sorry K9, K9: No need to apologise... but this shows an ignorance and close-minded attitude on your part. K9: insults huh, wow.. what does that show? ;) May I suggest until you know how another trainer works or what they have learned or believe, that you keep your misinformed beliefs to yourself. K9: Of course you can suugest what you like, doesnt mean I have to listen... You wrote a reply that was incorrect, I reserved my replies to that information only. It was you who implied P: Some trainers have learned far more than what was taught to them in their original profession and I am proud to say I am one of them. K9: which seems to be a suggestion that those who used prong collars & e collars had were not moving with the times.... Once more for the record, I will state that I am satisfied with my current methods of dog training which do not include the use of E Collars or prong collars. Why on earth should this be a problem for you or anyone else on DOL? K9: It isnt, well done... Posting incorrect information is where my problem lays, I think I have told you that several times now... Right now my clients are getting the results they are after and since this is my goal, I am happy and so are they. As far as explaining what my methods are…is that a question you (or any of us) could answer yourself in a few paragraphs? K9: yes.. While I have some obvious basic rules & protocols I follow, my methods are tailored depending on the dog & owner I am facing each day. K9: well tailored with in the restrictions of tools you will use... Maybe if you have problems with my training and/or creditability we should address it in another thread so as not to hijack this one any further. K9: Sure, start one up, I am there.. But for the last time (I hope) my issue was with the information you posted...

K9: In my experience Ultra Sonic collars have a very low success rate, under 10%. DAPs are not for barking for attention problems. Citronella is a poison so I would steer far from that but you can look here, we hire these also..

K9: This article may also be of interest on using an e collar...its called "Why use a remote collar"

P: The success of the tool depends on the information given by the trainer and how well it is understood & used by the owner. K9: So, by you being against these tools, your saying you arent qualified to use them or train orthers too? P: Whether you use the terminology of shock or e collar makes no difference it is still electoral impulses being sent to the dogs brain that would not normally be produced by the dog. This was done away with in humans in the 1930's because it did not work in solving behavioural problems. K9: I hope that people read the above quote & understand why people like you should not be giving advice on things they know zero about... Even old shock collars, that differ from todays devices in the fact that the level of electrical stimulation was many times higher than it is today. Back then a "shock" was delivered to the animal at a high intensity, often a static discharge. It never was a device that effected the brain in any way... Modern e collars are quite different in their design as they have both the positive & the negative probe on the collar so that, current only travels between the two points, approx 40mm of skin is required to complete the circuit between the two probes.. Again, nothing to effect the brain at all... LOL, where were you in the 1930's ? P: I am 5'2 inches and of very slim build. In fact I weigh exactly 46 kilos. For me, as a trainer, the size of the dog has nothing to do with it's problem nor my beliefs. I stated earlier that I have never used these tools in my training, this is a fact, not a political belief. K9: Yes, but its our political belief & miss informed opinion that has denied you years of use of tools that are very effective. P: Some trainers have learned far more than what was taught to them in their original profession and I am proud to say I am one of them. K9: It is a shame that what you have learned is incorrect then isnt it... P: Remember a flat collar is just a tool. K9: duh... really, Didnt I write that? P: I find that when I use it in conjunction with my training techniques, a flat collar can be a useful tool regardless of the size or temperament of the dog or handler. I have dealt with many large breed dogs with so called high drive, in fact they are often neurotic dogs, frustrated as their training has nothing to do with the lifestyle the dog actually leads compared to the life the trainer thinks the dog should be leading. I was taught by a very wise person who once said that training is all about technique not brawn or quick fixes to make the trainer look good. K9: I have been taught by over 100 000 clients that results are what people want, not gimmicks... Many of the dogs I work with I can easily control, train & erase undesireable behaviours, I can, but it isnt about what I can do, it isnt my dog & there are too many trainers who show people what can be done, only for those clients never to be able to repeat it at home... This is de motivating to the owners & often leads them to a belief that they will never have success with their dog & they give up... P: I don't actually have a one sided opinion on this subject K9: of course you do, you decided that you wouldnt use them, it doesnt get more one sided than that... P: that is why I am seeking a more in depth opinion and doing further research on the subject. K9: Being used in what method? turn up the collar & blast the dog? Thats about as accurate as me beating you with a flat collar & asking you how positive you think they are now? Nearly every study conducted on e collars has been completed by people who already had a negative opinion & set out to prove themselves right.. Every study I has seen was based on high level use of the collar... Why dont you read my article http://www.k9force.net/index.html?row2col2=etruth.html P: The problem as I see it so far, is that when electrical shock waves in a dogs brain are given externally you never know the dog's true capacity or what the dog can achieve given the right circumstances. K9: If what you have concluded in yoru research is that shock waves are sent to the dogs brain, you need to give up right now... P: If a trainer can not give the right circumstances to a problem then they should not attempt to give an uninformed opinion. K9: Now if that were true, you wouldnt be posting now would you...? P: I have researched many behavioural tools in dog training and will continue to do so. Whilst ever my current methods are achieving the current results I am getting, I do not feel the need to use methods that are as yet unproven for me in their effectiveness. K9: right, so what your saying is... 1. I have researched many behavioural tools in dog training and will continue to do so. K9: ok got that part straight.. 2. Whilst ever my current methods are achieving the current results I am getting, I do not feel the need to use methods that are as yet unproven for me in their effectiveness. K9: so, you have researched tools & will continue to do so but you wont use any new tools as your getting results????? I have to ask again, where were you in the 1930's? rofl.. someone send electrical impulses to your brain? sorry just kidding.... P: The way I am researching the subject is to examine case studies, veterinary/behavioural papers written on the testing and the outcome of tests using these devices to cure animal behaviour. K9: Your seeking advice on training tools from a vet? lol... good luck..

K9: It is hard to say how someone elses shoes feel without trying them on. Many people have a dog that cannot be walked down the street with out it going off at a person or dog aggressively. For those people, there initial goals are to just be able to walk the dog down the street, to them that is all that is needed & that is exactly what should be focussed on by their trainer or behaviourist. It isnt so much about a cure, being total rehabilitation, its about listening to the goals the clients have, considering how possible these goals are & then setting about trying to achieve them. Aiming at the sky when people want ground level results often demotivates people...

K9: The rest of your post made perfect sense, but when it seems you think that a certain tool is a cure, you have gone way off. A tool isa tool & nothing more, how good or bad it is really boils down to the user. There is no such thing these days as a shock collar & I find the people who use that term are trying to excite an emotive response in the readers, rather than provide an objective review of a tool... K9: the tools used or recommended need to be based on the dogs temperament, the size & strength of the handler & the problem at hand not a rainers political beliefs. If a client comes to me that is being dragged around by their large breed, high drive dog, offering them a flat collar is doing them an injustice.. Your exposing that person to more heart ache, when there is no need... K9: what use that would that be? you already have a one sided opinion. You can research all you want but if you found that they are totally harmless, would you start using them? The answer would be no because apparently your solving all problems that you get? so why research? I would think it would be wiser to research tools you do use, not ones you dont..

K9: have you in the past thrown the toy or ball for him to chase?