Steve K9Pro

K9: I was not talking about any one past, just a generalisation of what happens... I do note that Frank doesnt want to train his dog in obedience but I dont think he isnt interested in getting help... He came here for help... K9: A friend of mine is a qualified plumber, he also happens to be great at electrical work (not a tradesman though), I dont send people to plumbers for electrical work because some of them can rewire a house, if you know what I mean... I am also a big believer in the fact that if a person has a problem with a dog, & they rehome the dog & get another, some or all of the problems in the first dog will manifest in the new dog in most cases... So I think it would be best if Frank worked with this dog, not someone else take it on... K9: none of those, what I did say was: - K9: In the many years I have worked with dogs, a 75% success rate has never been acceptable... K9: yep, some do.. & some are completely hopeless.. I dont think you will find anywhere I said that breeders sit on the lounge waiting for bitches to pop out puppies.. Lets not get ahead of yourself there eh?

K9: Now were did you meet me? I suspect it WAS in Qld.... , & its seems I am coming back according to Rom lol..

K9: Thanks Rachelle for the kind words... It was really a great course for me too, I was pretty amazed at the level these students rose to in such a short time, & the difference THEY (not me) made to the dogs was nothing short of amazing! I did design the course to be short which meant that everyone was under pressure to accomplish success in a small amount of time, & they really never were anything but positive & enthusiastic. I set up a yahoo group so that we may all discuss the current learning curve of the dogs & update & modify the programs as the dogs progress. Other than the two dogs I set as their learning benches, I gave them other cases (note form) I am working on to diagnose & prepare a strategy to work with, this was their homework... Just like every other step, they performed very well... We also had a day set aside for handling, in which 4 other dogs were brought along so that I can discuss the use of tools, techniques etc.. Jane (Harper of Qld) & Judi (Pro K9 Victoria http://prok9.com.au/) were kind enough to donate some of their time for my students, making the interstate trip & giving a talk for us that was not only educational, but entertaining as well... It was great for me too spending time with some friends in the industry.. I feel that whilst aggression itself is a complicated & difficult concept to grasp, the people that attended this course came out surprisingly on top of their game... I asked people from a few places, here included (http://www.dolforums.com.au/index.php?show...=free+behaviour) & (http://www.dolforums.com.au/index.php?show...=free+behaviour), to donate two dogs for this course. I was inundated & ended up chosing two dogs, both with aggression issues. First I would like to say that the owners of these dogs were very committed & very positive about this course, always willing to work with us & allow us to work with their dogs. I have been in contact with them all the way & will continue to stay in contact with them to ensure their dogs stay on the straight & narrow. It was a real pleasure for me to watch the bond between these dogs & their owners improve continuously throughout this course, & watch the guys doing the course really enjoy creating this bond... Both dogs were chosen as they were far from simple cases, in fact one dog was human aggressive to the point that some students were hesitant to work with him, not that I blame them... Within minutes he was in their control & working beautifully... It was really something to behold... Great students, great dogs & great owners made this an easy task for me to get such rave reviews...

No, WRONG! I am concerned about the dog. You don't seem to be answering my questions? If the owner is not committed to working with the dog to sort out the issues, rehoming to someone who WILL is the best option. Do you agree? K9: yes I agree, but all you know is that he isnt keen on obedience, rehoming the dog wont solve the dog problem. And... I dont have to answer your questions...

K9: I guess like many threads here, your more interested in arguing than solving the actual problem...

K9: There is no process in place, the dog needs to be assessed & then a program designed that will work for the dog AND the owner. Default telling every person they need to go to Obedience training isnt going to work...

K9: There have been plenty of people both in this thread & other threads that do recommend breeders when there is a behaviour problem... Rehoming the dog will not fix this problem either...

K9: I dont think I at any time recommended pinning a dog? So I dont think you can see where I am coming from...? But what I would say is, Breeders seem to be a lot of peoples source for behaviour solutions, not sure why this would be...?

K9: the majority of training is with the owner, yes..

K9: Look this seems to be another thread full of speculation, whilst it would make life really easy to sit back & just consult with people over email, I just cant do that without seeing the dog, diagnosing the problem, assessing the dedication & skills of the owner, & thats me, so I struggle to find out how others seem to do it so easily... Frank I would suggest that you have your dog assessed to see what the problem is, it would be ideal for your whole pack to be there initially so one could see what is driving this dog of yours. Then, I am sure that happiness is well within reach as will be the safety of your children...

K9: Orbo's & Orbee balls are used for two different purposes. Orbee balls are a training / play tool. Orbos are a tool to keep the dog interested. The ball that will last the longest is a canon ball. Made from steel, will last forever. The dogs teeth will not... Harder the ball, harder on the teeth, softer the ball, softer on the teeth.

K9: yes we have sold them to a few Dane & Saint owners. The big ones are 125mm high, 5 inches old school measurement.

K9: I find these a much better toy http://www.k9force.net/index.html?row2col2=orbee.html Has a treat spot to keep treats in there longer, great peppermint smell, softer & more plyable but still very tough, white ones glow & they all float!

K9: If you email us we can refer you to someone... [email protected]

K9: now I get it, I always say, no point in growing weeds, just so you can pull them...

K9: I am lost, what about my first post??

K9: I dont think I suggested that you said you advise people to let their dog play with any dog it meets... But I cant see how it is any better playing with one dog or any dog? Other than the risk of being attacked is reduced... You still have a high value reward that you need to call your dog away from... K9: no need for defence... K9: how exactly do you manage to make yourself more fun, when you are the one expecting the pup to sit calmly, & the other just plays with no rules...? K9: Well thanks for the lesson in dog training, I will have to keep all that in mind... I wonder how many on this forum can even get a reliable recall, with any method... To suggest this will happen this easy is blue sky stuff.. K9: sure, read away... http://www.dolforums.com.au/index.php?show...=neutralisation

K9: your right, they dont think of the consequences....

K9: I dont think we do either, thats not what I said though... In reality, the majority of dog owners get the dog, wait until it starts behaving badly, then seek training... Ideally (perfect world), they would seek advice before getting the dog, then begin training immediately... Pro active, not re active.. K9: Thanks for answering that, I have a few points I would like to make... You say above you allow your pup & advise others to allow their pups to play with other dogs.. A reasonable assumption is that the dog would get to like to play with the other dogs, lets say it would find it rewarding.. the more it does it, the more rewarding, so, now that you have a dog with a high value on playing with other dogs, you recalling the dog from them will either be more difficult to train or if your dog will leave the other dogs, its removing the reward... right? What prompts me to ask this question was this statement you made

K9: yes, well, thats how they do it in the perfect world isnt it? I have a question for you if I may? If you get a puppy, how do you socialise it to other dogs?

K9: Most times, I can easily handle peoples dogs with very little else than my body language & some type of restraint, yes even a flat collar. But is it really about what I can can do?, or what the client (dog owner) in front of me will be able to do once they get he dog home again? I have people daily tell me that their last trainer could handle the dog & when they couldnt, just told them it was their fault. I sell results, if that means I need to equip people with knowledge AND a prong collar or e collar, then I think that is the best solution... No dogs havent improved over the years, but I attribute that to less available time rather than what impact a tool will or wont have...

K9: again you are telling me what & I do & dont have, how do you know? I asked you that same question in the last post, you didnt answer? K9: & here I was thinking it was Innocent until proven guilty... I havent got a scientific study saying that I cant jump over the moon, so I must be able to... K9: your right there, I dont think its neccessary... I think every test known to man has been completed & the only results shown really prove no harm, & thats by those who are against e collars.. You feel that more research is needed, thats fair enough comment, I ask why do you think this? How many dogs have you seen suffering after being subjected to good e collar training? K9: perhaps you can show me where I tried to belittle you? or your experience... The e collar isnt my precious tool, it can be anyones precious tool... Getting a little defensive are we? But whilst were on the subject, maybe you can share with us your experience with the e collar? K9: yes they do, just like those who need to test & test & test things when the answers are already there... K9: I am not in any way attacking you, but in any thread I choose to reply to, I, regardless of the poster, will question anything that I dont agree with.. I think thats quite within the forum rules...

K9: I cant see where I suggested that was the case, what I did say was K9: what I am saying is that, with a comprehensive video that other tool manufacturers dont supply, this goes some way to eliminating people using e collars with zero idea.. K9: which only stands testimony that the tool isnt the problem... K9: people arent dogs though & what is interesting is what effect the mind has the on the body.. I can hook up a e collar to a persons arm, make a loud sound & they will jump & take the collar off their arm. I ask did that hurt & they say yes, I say the collar wasnt turned on... K9: & may I ask, how do you know what I do or dont know? K9: I agree all real aspects should be explored, if someone was to suggest that stimming a dog would cause the dog to explode, that is an aspect, doesnt make it a realistic aspect.. I make my comments based on facts, not the lack thereof... K9: What facts have you got to suggest there is more than meets the eye...? Your tingling arm? K9: Has anyone said that they are the best in every case though?

K9: lets say that training was set up 100% perfect, if there is such a thing... Your dog has a 100% reliable recall, & he is performing a long distance send away, running into the wind, his back to you. Circumstances chance in the environment, an aggressive dog enters your training area, you recall your dog & with the wind blowing directly into you, of course the dog cant hear you.... Your hand signals are unseen when the dog is running away from you.. What do you do? E collars are not effected by the wind... Just one way that they are invaluable as a communication tool... K9: This is true, however its equally laughable that e collars should be the only tool out of the list you gave to suffer due to the possibility of abuse... The problem as you have indicated isnt the tool in use, its the skill of the user or the lack there of.. I do agree that the abuse factor is possible with any tool, but at least most e collars come with a comprehensive traing video or they are available at least. I havent seen check chains or halters come with any such thing... K9: does it mean then for sure that it can cause these effects, or is it a theory? There is no getting away from the fact that actually using this tool for many hundreds of hours with zero negative effects is going to outrank a theory in my opinion. I always seem to find those who have ideas and theories about what could go wrong, to have have never or rarely used an e collar, as Lou said, most have never even seen one..

K9: Behavioural problems aside, I guarantee to have any dog walking on a loose leash in under 15 minutes... Its on my site.. http://www.k9force.net/index.html?row2col2=obed.html Then I will hand back the leash to the owner & have them do it. The the owner will go home & arrive at the same results, fast. When something as simple as loose leash walking takes a lot of time, something is wrong with either: 1. The method (crucial) 2. The tools used 3. The pack structure 4. The dog has a severe behavioural problem