Steve K9Pro

K9: we do sell these containment systems, we also have dog runs that could be of use to you.... If your dog is only diging out of one area then you can use a zone.. This is a device that keeps your dog away from a certain area, easy & quick set up, cheaper than pens & containment systems, easily moveable...

K9: with near perfect scores.. Mistakes are the building blocks to success (copywrite k9 force!) K9: probably me, but I say that about everyone... "I rehabilitate people, I train dogs" rofl...

K9: well your comp scores prove your not! Yeah, but don't forget that my dog is better than I am...I'm the weak link in the team K9: someone taught your dog.... weak link :D

K9: I design my training programs off some rules I believe in, one is that "the animal learns best when it offers the behaviour". I feel that correcting the dog all the way to you is against this rule, but when the dog can choose to not pull on he leash it becomes more balanced, or relaxed as you say... K9: & being dragged is teaching the dog your not the Alpha...

And just as well ..... as without additional input continued learning ceases ..... But amongst other things, I wish I could learn more your 'art' of explanations ............................ And you're right - my post was made having my own imaginary 'fido' in mind. In case it was mis-understood, I don't run to every person telling them they must have a prong-collar on their dog. It does depend on dog/handler combo as to what is best. K9: are you calling me an "artist"? rofl..

K9: well your comp scores prove your not!

K9: As per usual, I have an answer for that... When a dog is doing this, the dog is letting me know that what ever collar I am using right now, is not the collar this particular dog needs.. I believe the dog chooses the collar, I only use four training collars, martingale, prong, stabilisation collar & e collar. When we will be using a mechanical collar (eg prong or mart) I often start with the mart & show the people & myself how the dog responds to a properly sized & fitted martingale, most times "I could" successfully train the dog with a Martingale but I can see that I do have to make sure time & correction parametres are spot on. It isnt about what I can do, its about what I can teach the people to do... I can usually then determine that the handler will not start at that level & we try a prong collar. The dog is then trained with the collar that gets the handler the best results...

K9: The text books talk about the use & timings of reinforcers in a way that I havent found accurate when actually working with dogs... See the undesireable behaviour, issue a command then give a correction (level of correction pre set)... The level must be such that it extinguishes the behaviour... Whilst this "will" work in the text book, explaining to someone how to determine a correction level is not that easy... Timing of some people is dreadful & many people will watch the "text book trainer" deliver a correction & wont replicate that level when the trainer isnt around. The leerburg video is a good example, Ed corrects a dog at a level that causes the dog to vocalise... Not a high percentage of people will do that.. So just the implementation will be a problem for many... There is no right & wrong, there is limited success with methods people arent comfortable with.. Some other issues are that these higher level corrections can deminish drive, create fear in the presence of the handler, cause the dog to shut down etc etc.. So whether it works or not isnt always the main reason to chose a method... I havent found any dog become desensitized to lower level corrections, because the level escalates until the behaviour changes. This takes the importance off timing & handler skill a little & gives the dog time to think & actually decide to change the behaviour, not have the behaviour shunted out of him... The dog isnt subjected to un neccessaru corrections either as the dog is free to change the behaviour at the first correction, & many do... Does that explain things briefly Rom?

K9: people always hear what they want to hear dont they.... :D K9: & keep in mind that many handlers need to "prepare themselves" to deliver a correction via say a check chain as it can require so much force with some dogs. Dog picks up on the preparation & as checks, martingales etc all apply the correction to muscle tissue, it can often render the correction useless. The prong works on skin not muscle. Also too some people need to use such a high level of force to correct their dog effectively, this raises adrenalin, frustration & sometimes anger in the trainer, which clouds judgement, destroys timing & breaks down the bond between the dog & handler... Giving them a more effective tool, teaching them how to read their dog & time corrections & improving the Alpha Status of the hanlder works very well for me...

K9: Yes, you may well have, but given your experience & mine, I would have delivered you a level ten correction with the prong...

K9: In addition to what Erny has written, the use of the prong collar is really no different to using any correction collar, but, everyone has an ideal of the way they use it... I use an escalating style very light correction that to me preserves the dogs confidence & I find it easy to teach to others & they adapt & train very well, others choose a level of correction they feel adequate & deliver it... I am not a fan of this method for new trainers/handlers & I explain it this way.. If I offered someone $30 000 for their car & the said sold, I would have either, hit the exact amount of money they wanted or somewhere above. If I offered $10, $20, $30 & escalated until they said sold, I would have paid the exact correct amount.. I like to introduce new handlers to corrections the same way...

K9: who knows, you will never know... The job is more than hard enough, for the dog & the people... I am sure it is a SOP (standard operating proceedure) to clear the area of dogs & people who are not needed... Police are always under intense scrutiny, when you line up for something like this its best to give yourself the best chance of success.. K9: pretty normal, until given a command to follow, it is just a normal dog... K9: It would be down to the officer in charge at the time... I cant see them deploying the dog past or through another though...

K9: I have tested this type of collar & was not a fan, we had 20 on test & decided they werent for us.. No need to re invent the wheel so to speak... There is a rule of thumb that says that corrections are a no no on a pup under 6 months.. I feel personally that as long as you are aware of fear periods & no corrections in those periods, your ok.. I would feel a correction or two before six months is better than an out of control 6 month old dog...

K9: when I have worked dogs in similar circumstances I too have asked that all other dogs be put away, the concern was FOR my dogs, I didnt want them being attacked by someone's dog that was lose... Police Service Dogs are worked in environments of high distractions all the time including other dogs being around, barking & working on other tasks, so I cant see that being an issue...

K9: Just keep in mind I have no available appointments left until just about end of January...

K9: This is true, many travel from interstate & yes we can organise accomodation for you & your dog... K9: I absolutely g/tee that I wont say I cant help... K9: Thanks JJ, better do my best then or I might have to set you up a bunk.... K9: as Rom said, I may be heading that way next year... But if you do come down, we set you up a weekend package with two or three sessions, your dog will go home a lot better, but maybe not reach the levels you desire? Not sure...

K9: not complicated if you know the answer lol... In a class setting, your dog has it all figured out, how it can get drive satisfacion etc etc.. This comfort needs to be taken away, frustration added, new paths to success taught... K9: Scenting is part of the hunting insticts which are part of the prey model, it can be done...

K9 : roflmao

K9: Frank is reading by the way, you must not have scared him off.... lol..

K9: thats me! (humble)

K9: http://www.dolforums.com.au/index.php?show...5&hl=drives K9: It sounds like your dog has already found a way to gain drive satisfaction, scenting, this means as you try & interupt that, you become part of the problem not part of the solution (drive satisfaction), yeah? I like to teach dogs that "scent work is the way you earn your rewards" not that it is rewarding all on its own... Does that make sense? (or scents? lol)

K9: lol I will just accept your apology humbly... K9: well I guess he just doesnt have the faith in you that I do....

K9: I can let it slide just this once... K9: often I think, specially here this can be driven by those that arent familiar with modern day behavioural training.. Lost of those people believe even the simplest dogs cant be rehabbed... We seen that recently with the biting cattle dog... I think people give up on pro help before investing in it... But as you know, the people that do invest in it are saying its the best $$ they ever spent... K9: people often thinking the programs we will give are time sonsuming and complicated, when in reality, I only give people the amount of work that will get the job done & nothing more, keeping time schedules high on my list of things to consider... He may feel working his dog is a 24/7 task...? K9: I see the more someone almost immediately jump into what has been suggested, people just seem to try harder to make them commit, when it really doesnt work that way... If people arent ready to commit to a program, 74 more replies pushing them will not help... That becomes counter productive... K9: possibly, but this in itself is an internet diagnosis as we havent seen the dog, the dog could have many issues in which Franks input would be of no use... Whilst we may know all the answers to Franks problem, & maybe nothing is wrong with what has been offered here, but the result of the 8 pages is that we now think Frank has gone, when his first post was clearly asking for advice/help... It is easy to justify what we say, but if it has the opposite to our desired result, maybe the delivery needs some work...

K9: I havent anything planned in stone, but I would say I will be in Vic & Qld in 2008... & if there are people who would like a private consult, then I am sure we can swing that... The best bet is, if your not on our mailing lists, send us an email & ask to be on it for your state. They fill very quickly & there are always people who will miss out if your not quick. The email lists get first notification.... [email protected]

Yes, the same could be said for some trainers as well. So what is the difference? K9: no excuses for a qualified trainer not to know...