Steve K9Pro

Well in Australia we killed 75000 dogs last year, wonder how many could have been saved without tool prejudice.

K9Pro, on 07 August 2011 - 03:49 PM, said:

K9: So if the dogs that reacted with handler aggression had been wearing flat collars, what would be the reason MJ?

The dog that I knew before and after didn't react when wearing his collar or when put into a no pull harness. He didn't like it as he couldn't get what he wanted when he wanted but he didn't react aggressively. The other dog I have no idea if it would have reacted on a flat collar or not but he was quite happy to wear the check chain before and after the demo, but as I'm sure you know several hours is only a very brief look into that dogs life, maybe that dog would react on a flat collar, who knows.

Sorry MJ, this is a case of redirected aggression as the handler / trainer didn't control the stimulus level. It happens, we dont know how the dog feels at every moment.

In the first case, this dog would have reacted in the same manner each time the dog was placed under the same circumstance which was "He didn't like it as he couldn't get what he wanted when he wanted".

In the second I guess it should remain undocumented as you don't know the case history of the dog.

I had a dog here on Thursday that when I gave him prolonged eye contact (5 seconds or up),he would attack you. He was wearing a harness, he displayed this behavior regardless of what tool he was wearing, and in spite of the tool.

The trigger was eye contact, ban eyes? lol

The examples you give are good support for people seeking help, not whether a prong collar can cause harm, as I pointed out the above was a handler / trainer error, the handler / trainer just used the prong collar to make the error.

[i think they key here is that ALL tools can cause harm but when used properly- does the prong have more chance of causing harm than any other tool?

I think you could get the same response from using a number of other tools inappropriately/incorrectly.

I've seen a dog react and bite its owner when given a correction on a flat collar.

I see what you are saying and agree but I've been to quite a few seminars, handled many dogs with other training aids on, a lot more than 3 times, and have had one dog react with me on a no pull harness, the dog was fully loaded so I wasn't surprised. Neither of the two dogs in the examples that reacted were loaded.

The experienced trainer is highly regarded and has been an advocate of prongs for many years so you would assume that the trainer would know how to use the collar correctly.

K9: So if the dogs that reacted with handler aggression had been wearing flat collars, what would be the reason MJ?

When it doesn't work the dog pays.

I Often see people come here with aggression issues and them receive advice of "buy this book and ...", honestly DONT!

This is a lot more dangerous than any tool.

Thanks Jules that's a good point, we don't hand them out like lollies. None of my training in drive programs have any physical corrections.

Thank you Shell.

I had a think about this thread for a few minutes and wanted to put some things in perspective.

Rusky if I have said anything in the past that was out of line to you, I apologize, like I said nothing personal. I just knew I hadn't said what you said as I a firm believer of learn don't guess.

I am going to take the Cult comment as a compliment, yes I do have a lot of very loyal clients that support me in any way they can, mostly by referral. I would have to put that down to the service I have tried to give, which is my all.

Someone mentioned Zero to me the other day saying Shell must have practically lived here to get Zero so good.

To tell my version of the story, Shell was not always a Cult member lol... Yes recently she has become our official photographer because she takes the nicest shots, she is a nice girl and looks amazing in Camo lol.

I met up with Shell at the MDBA awards that just past and I had to tell her that after working with her, I wouldn't have known her if I bumped into her on the street. This happened because I guess we both focused pretty hard on Zero.

I cant and wont take credit for his rehabilitation, I do remember telling her that he would need a lot of work, she said "I don't care how long it takes, how much it costs".

I only saw Zero three times and I read a lot of email updates.

He came to an aggressive dog workshop about 8 weeks after I first met him, he was totally non reactive and looking very happy and there was trust in his eyes. People kept asking me why he was there, and another Border I had worked with too, Dave. I told them he was aggressive not three months ago, people giggled at me as I am always joking around, but I said I am telling you true here. They would not or could not believe it.

I have not seen him must be 2 years maybe until he came up for the Sydney workshop just a couple of weeks ago. He remembered me very well and I did him. He has an amazing look in his eyes now that when he looks at you, its impossible not to smile back (and give him a treat or 9).

The prong collar was a tool that enabled Shell to move forward, like she said after about 12 weeks it was off and has never been on again. Could we have done it without a prong collar? Yes probably, but could I have convinced her she could? if the answer is no then a dog that I truly believe is one of the most engaging dogs I have ever met may not be here. I believe Zero has changed Shells life and they are such a great inseparable couple.

It is insane to remove this option from trainers who can use them and help others.

If that means restriction, no problems with me.

My clients are very important to me, I am in their cult...

Huski can you pl;ease forward several "cult points" to the cult members who have helped me in this thread please, throw a few in for yourself too lol

GG: I did fall weak to my own curiosity and did a search too, and I found a thread in which Rusky took offence to Steve quoting some things they said with factual answers (albeit a bit of jest and humour was also involved)...perhaps this is why Rusky has posted what they did?

K9: Probably, look if I debate something on a forum with someone there is definitely nothing personal, I don't play favorites, if I don't agree with what is written, I will say so, no matter who writes it.

I don't remember ever debating anything with Rusky (shows it never was personal, for me at least).

I am interested in facts and helping people with their dogs, not politics. Too much politics keeps me away from DOL.

Thanks GG and Corvus. So back in June 08 I pretty much said word for word what I say now.

Rusky I run training courses for Government including Customs, like I said importing restricted items by false declaration is a Federal Offence.

I be waiting for your aplogy Rusky

If someone had a prong collar YES I would be happy to teach them how to use it. Now tell me how education is wrong.

Lol seriously ...

How do you control the user? You can't. So ban everything that can cause harm or be miss used. That would be everything.

Rusky your either mistaken or a liar. Look at any or every old post of mine and you will see I have never said any such thing. Miss labeling anything you import is a federal offense.

I also don't agree with anyone buying any tool and not being trained to use it. Why would I? I am a trainer.

Cult ? ?? Get a grip

K9: My Staffy is food OBSESSED. I have tried doing sit and wait exercises with her food in front of her - she will wait but she gets very stressed out and trembles uncontrollably, whinges, makes grunting noises and her eyes bulge etc.

K9: Of course I haven't seen her but many of the symptoms your describing are that of drive,m not stress.

When she is waiting she looks like she is trying to restrain herself because she sort of moves around in different positions. My problem is, as far as I know there is no amount of time that I can wait until she stops this behaviour if there is food in front of her. I have tried waiting up to 2 hours (sometimes eating my dinner while she waits for hers) with her food in front of her and I am worried that it is unhealthy for her to be in this state of stress for so long. When she finally does get her food she eats it so fast that she usually has to regurgitate it and chew it again (she is raw fed so her food is in large pieces, not kibble)

K9: Move the food further away and monitor the changes, teaching a dog self control will help the dog in its life and yours, you will not do any harm if you follow the program.

I would really like to get her food obsession under control because she often starts whingeing if she hears someone preparing food and won't stop for hours.

K9: Yes again, I really think that she is not stressed at all lol, but if she can make you think she is, well that will work.

Also I feel I should mention that she is not food agressive at all and will let anyone put their hand in her bowl or touch her while she is eating, but if she is waiting for food and someone goes near her or or the food her level of stress seems to accelerate because she thinks her food is going to be stolen.

K9: And this can lead to undesirable behaviors, so the TOT will be helpful for you, Training in drive with food as the motivator would help too!

sorry if this has been asked already... am trying to get my head around the tot method! How does this training relate to improving heel work?

thanks!

K9: I develops the reward system and a marker or communication system that can be used to train just about anything, including heel work.

K9: These are the ones we use

Training Gloves

K9: and she is doing a super job, very proud of her!

K9: Do you mean whilst your preparing the food?

K9: This is an old thread that may help...

And the ones that will be laying around grossly overweight from eating the endless supply of treats lol

No problems, miracles we do at once, the impossible takes a little longer

Hi DOLers,

So I bought a new leather collar from K9 pro about 6 months ago that was meant for my dogs birthday yesterday. So of course I just assumed it would fit, and tried it on him today and it is too big!

So I am wondering if there is anyone who can make it smaller? I have have no idea what they would be called...a leather maker?

I just want it shortened and more holes in it.

Random question I know, hope someone has an answer!

Thanks!

K9: Yep just email us and we will exchange it for you

K9: The Bob a lot has a removable lid you can screw off to fill with treats, it also has an adjustable food release door that you can adjust to increase the difficulty in getting out treats.

The Kong Wobbler is flat on the bottom, it will sit still until the dog nudges it, Bob is round on the bottom, he will wobble in the wind.

Wobbler $26.00 here

PS: What I disagree with regarding purely positive trainers is limiting resources to train on the one size fits all basis because not two dogs in temperament and drive are the same.

K9: I agree that this does happen, but I don't think it happens just on one side of the fence, I see many trainers do this from both sides of the "religion".

I also think that training without compulsion is the only way to achieve certain things with certain dogs. All of my Training in Drive programs are non compulsive, there are no correction collars, e collars, no harsh verbal tones,. nothing at all that will apply any type of aversive to the dog other than removal of the reward.

At times drive has attained a level of destructiveness or self destructiveness that remaining positive is almost counter productive to the outcome, not primarily the outcome of the dog but the outcome of the situation. That includes the handler, dog and environment.