Steve K9Pro

K9: You made the comparison between a child & dogs earlier, this seems to me that you would expose your child to all manner of undesirables just so they could learn to cope on their own? K9: if they don't escalate past air snapping, what does this mean? K9: You might be happy with your dogs behaviour in this situation but I wonder if your dog is happy with the situation? I wonder when an old dog gets relieved of duties rather than spending a lifetime trying to keep all manner of dogs in line... I wonder if your aware that some of your dogs "natural" reactions could see it declared dangerous. K9: I think its is easier to avoid problems rather than take risks, create them then try & cure them. K9: It conveys to me your dog does not at all consider you a leader. You played the "see what happens game". Say she had resisted being pulled away, you stopped, the other dog came over & she attacked it, what now? You cant say "I knew she wouldn't" you just wrote you cant read a dog that well? What would have happened if she had stood there just as she did, & the other dog attacked & killed her? Why wait & do things under the dogs terms? K9: Its your business under several headings, Alpha, Leader, Responsible dog owner, Protector of your pack. K9: Cant see why she would be rooted to the spot in terror when she can read & handle dogs so well? K9: You keep saying the same thing, it has been explained several times now. K9: I really find it difficult when people start bringing in other species, one because I am a Canine Behaviour Specialist & the other is because no other animal is like a dog. K9: Your not making any decisions, your letting her do it, thats why she thinks you suck (your words). Look, these are your dogs, you are free to do as you feel is best, no matter what anyone says, but that may not be the best for your dogs or other peoples. I personally feel that your letting your dog call the shots your allowing this to water down your alpha status, which puts a heavier responsibility on your dog, which at 13 I really feel is not fair. There are better ways, we know better now, lets use this information to guide us to better lives with our dogs...

K9: Hey thanks for getting back to me, that's really great news.

K9: sorry for the late reply, I didn't get an email notification there was a message here? Anyway, they are not mandatory but they do occur in every dog, just some dogs go through a more serious change than others.

K9: As Nekhbet mentioned, Anti Bark collars are the most effective solution in a high majority of the cases, this article can help you understand more about barking dogs also... http://www.k9force.net/index.html?row2col2=barking.html

K9: really, how do you know he knows that, I am fascinated. K9: I really mean no offence when I say this but, you are the one that come here & started a thread on stopping aggressive signals & asking (simple) questions on correcting early signs of aggression, I would think that if you did your honours in dog behaviour & are fluent in dog & had dogs that didnt show the remoteest signs of aggression, you wouldn't be asking? Correct me if I am wrong. K9: why? do your dogs roam the streets with out you? K9: Maybe, but this is not a kid, its a dog, a pack animal that lives & dies by leadership & pack structure.

K9: & thats your choice of course, but it is fact. K9: This occurs as Penny doesn't regard you as the pack leader in tese circumstances. K9: I would suggest she has gained this from your actions, rather than hers. K9: Dogs will always read dogs better than humans will read dogs when ever they are reading with a clear head, if the dog in question though has a pre conceived idea of what will be read in the other dog, you will be surprised how often dog makes that happen. This also isn't the only reason it is important to have the lead role, I might have replied to this thread in full defence & called you lots of names perhaps if I had felt threatened about something you have written, but of course the Alpha here is Troy who has set the rules. Do I read posters better than him in relation to dog questions? Probably, but its his leadership that keeps the board as good as it is today... Same goes when it comes to you & your dog, if you sit back accepting that your dog handles things better than you & your dog can read other dogs better & make better decisions, thats just another way of saying your dog is your leader under these terms. K9: Hence no leadership. K9: sounds great, but this is how she is supposed to think of you... It is my suspicion that one of the reasons she is so freaking awesome is because I was a kid when she was a youngster and I didn't know the first thing about stepping in, so she had to work it out for herself. She did so without starting any fights accidentally until she met this dog with the screw loose. She is a master at defusing tense situations with strange dogs. I can only admire her and feel proud of her.

K9: Not only is it possible but quite common, its something you definitely want to avoid though as those signs prior to aggression are our keys indicators on how we rehabilitate these dogs. K9: The concern with this isn't in the dogs behaviour but in yours, your dog is behaving this way as it is feeling undesirable pressure & is left to deal with this pressure (by the Alpha). This is a very common thing to occur but it usually ends up in a ggressive dog at some point. K9: they are wrong. K9: This person was correct but its not about distracting as much is it is about controlling & protecting. This is of course not talking about three of your own dogs in a pack but dogs your dog meets outside of your home.

K9: lol anyone that paid or pays before the 17th will receive the discount.

K9: I wasn't saying you should contact me, I was saying you havent but if you had, if anyone does looking for PPT I assess the need before beginning training. K9: No were in NSW. K9: This is the point I have been trying to clear up for you, adding protection will not add control. K9: sure I can understand that. K9: Stimlartion for the dog anyways come from drive satisfacton as we have discussed. K9: You might look into 4 Paws, Trish posts here o this board & they train motivationally.. Hope it all works out for you & your dog.

K9: There are lots of private trainers, training clubs & training companies especially in Victoria that will train in drive, I don't think that a lack of training facilities is the problem nor the reason to train protection either. K9: Forcing control on a dog vs the dog learning self control to achieve drive satisfaction is a no win situation for forced control. You often end up combating an off leash dog that can see your lack of availability of force & flips you the finger. Of course there are ways to combat this too, but its a lot of combat that you don't need to have. K9: of course not, but that isn't limiting drive as much as not allowing satisfaction to be found there. K9: This doesn't have to be taught through corrections though? Corrections by nature are to reduce or stop a unwanted behaviour, the behaviour must be learned before its there... K9: what I am getting at is that we don't need to Protection train ANY dog just to achieve drive satisfaction, its written throughout all my posts in this thread. K9: This is a learned condition not a genetic feature of the canine. K9: yes. K9: dogs that are not in any way afraid of the decoy & have not gone through any defence training do see the decoy as a tug toy, & I feel that's is a way to lost reliability of the dog in the face of the prey item (decoy). .K9: These are signs of nerve issues either present due to genetics or poor decoy work (learned experiences). K9: Cant see where I suggested that you didnt, when you questioned what I said I just provided information I felt would help you & the others reading this thread. The clear message I posted was this Owning a high drive dog should encompass some training in drive (IMO), that doesn't need to be driven towards or limited to Personal Protection training, there are other, less liability attracting & less risky types of training that will achieve the exact same results in terms of drive satisfaction for the dog. The OP hasn't contacted me for PP training, if they did I would be assessing the need for a Personal Protection dog, assessing the dog & making my decision from there.

K9: I am not a fan, its not teaching the dog to stay rather forcing it to, its also could invoke a little bit of avoidance leaving the dog with a stranger & this can be the reason for breaking the stay.

K9: It seems to me that the dog doesn't know what stay means & has no command exit strategy, hasn't been taught. Not hard to do though... Teach the dog that any exercise is only over when the dog hears only one of two things, a release command or another command. Then once you have that done, you can teach the dog to sit next to you, for a short period of time & finish this with a release command & reward. Then use this formula, time, before distance before distraction. Unfair to say no when the dog moves when he or she doesn't know what is expected. Instructor holding dog is a mistake from the start btw.

K9: In most cases they are satisfying prey drive where it wasn't being satisfied before. K9: Lots, how many dogs do you see chase a ball with the same enthusiasm? (ps dogs seeing the decoy as the 100% prey item is old school IMO) K9: No I cant, nor would want to, see in my post above I said "K9: If by "repetitive obedience" you mean mind numbing pacing up & down a field with little to no motivation then sure, I agree, but we all know (or should do) that obedience training through drive would be just as rewarding / drive stimulating as protection work." So, I said & repeat that, training obedience to achieve drive satisfaction will provide the same stimulation as protection work. In the old days, obedience was trained through compulsion, protection through some form of drive, that no longer has to be (or should be) the case. Compulsion by design is reduce/extinguish/limit drive so when I am training in drive I steer far from any type of correction. K9: The only appreciable difference would be the nerves of the dog, but this is not what I am discussing. K9: I guess everyone reads posts differently, I see a person that has put more work into this dog than the old dog with less results, so they were thinking that the only difference was that the old dog was Prot trained, & I think the type of training isn't where the problem lays, and although it makes no real difference Knucklebuster is a female. K9: Sorry, I didnt explain the drive process thouroughly, drive satisfaction is the same for every drive in other words, if the dog goes through the drive sequence of prey or defence, the reward to the dog, drive satisfaction is the same, its felt by the dog as internally rewarding, through a chemical change in the brain, therefore, if you satisfy prey drive or defence, its the same currency so to speak. Having a dog that will only gain satisfaction from one specific prey item is a little limiting also. Here is an old post that has quite a bit of info in it Prey drive control & focus

K9: I know what you mean, but no two dogs are alike, if this dog doesn't do as well with more training than your other dog, I doubt Protection training would go as well either. This dog either has less drive than your other dog or your not using something the dog finds rewarding. K9: If by "repetitive obedience" you mean mind numbing pacing up & down a field with little to no motivation then sure, I agree, but we all know (or should do) that obedience training through drive would be just as rewarding / drive stimulating as protection work. I see a lot of dogs come through here that I could recommend protection training for due to the great drives & nerves they have, but I could equally recommend Competition obedience, Sch, SAR, Retrieving, Herding & the list goes on. I have trained protection for many years but hesitate to recommend it to anyone that doesnt "need" it... We also start (I do anyway) with obedience training (in drive) so we have control before any aggression is considered, that way if someone drops out half way through, all they have is a very obedient dog with no bite work. K9: Not sure, I assess each dog on its own merits rather than a breed standard written as a guide. K9: The payment (reward) for any drive is the same in the dogs mind, be it prey or defence, its all the one chemical that flows in the animals brain. One is no more rewarding than the other if triggered & utilised correctly. Otherwise, it seems as if your saying that every dog of certain breeds should be protection trained to ensure drive satisfaction is complete.

K9: never seen a dog work for the "sake of it", dogs only work for something they find rewarding. Dogs like jobs as they find the job rewarding, in terms of prey, pack or food drive. If you can utilise these assets in protection you can utilise them in Obedience...

K9: There is no reason why obedience cannot be trained to the same level without protection training? Perhaps you achieved a higher level of training with your last (protection trained) dog as adding protection training to a dog may have required a higher level of obedience to satisfy the trainer that you had control of a dog that could (potentially) cause harm. Personally, I would protection train a dog "just" to get a high level of obedience...There are many good reasons to train a dog in personal protection, this one wouldn't satisfy me to train your dog though..

K9: Oh yeah I will be there too.. Our aggression day is going to be jam packed full of info that will blow the mind... sneak peak... Topic: AGGRESSION Theory explanation of drives, dog aggression & factors that affect aggression. Asserting yourself as a pack leader Fast risk assessment of aggressive dogs Safe handling techniques for dog handlers, vets, vet nurses, rescuers etc Management strategies Steve’s recipe to solve aggression The effect of the Alpha on aggression Setting yourself up to win Training Tools & their benefits How to break up a dog fight Hands on handling / training / assessment of aggressive dogs Adding control to an out of control dog, fast.

K9: we have a little Rotty that has been in Box training for 3 weeks, she explodes from the heel position to the box, then back again on command. Its truly the most enthusiastic method for training this step...

K9: have a super method for you Seita, will demo it for you when I am in QLD!

K9: Plenty have been made, just not here...

K9: really sounds like the handler & dog communication was, or is still poor. The dog has been corrected possibly in a fit of rage & coupled with no communication & I would guess attempting to correct before the exercises was correctly taught, has your dog acting this way. I would be getting a good training program organised with a good trainer & I feel you will get over this problem fairly easily. I am sure the dog doesnt know what is expected of him if he pulls then acts this was after a correction...

K9: we run workshops on various topics here in NSW a couple of times per year, there wont be another this year, probably mid next year but probably not on aggression as were running this one now... If you want to be on our mailing list, email us with your location on [email protected] & we will add you...

K9: We will be putting together an info sheet with all the details before the workshop, so you will be well informed of what you will need.

K9: more than anyone would believe... K9: yes thats usually easily achieved once the play is under control... K9: I am really glad to hear she is going well, your doing a great job by the sounds of it, very, very well done...! Really proud of what guys are doing! There's still a few bits of your other advices we have yet to implement properly though - I'll PM you! K9: Yep I will be awaiting the email, your very welcome.. W:

K9: Spot on... There is no better advise than what Wobbly has written... Nice to see you remembered it exactly as I prescribed it & its working for you!