Steve K9Pro

K9: sure & briefly. I don't think all dogs in a breed are the same, so labelling a breed difficult is a bit wide spread to me. I have been brought lost of dogs from so called difficult breeds, once assessed for what drives them I had no problems training them. K9: f the dog is going to be trained with an e collar, the collar goes on for conditioning purposes, (get used to the box & collar on its neck) somewhere around 20 weeks, no button pressing necessary at this stage.

K9: If you use the e collar as a high level correction tool then that's right, high level corrections through the use of any tool, remote collar, check chain prong etc in young dogs especially before bonds are made can be hazardous. But if its a low level communication tool then there are benefits to using one early, same as using a clicker to shape behaviours/movements & aid communicaton. K9: My understanding is that LM is doing that. K9: yes of course, we do little else really, but I was commenting that I wasnt concerned about the skeletal impact, not that I was. K9: I guess it depends how much you call complete, man people have done it this way I were not having an problems at all. He sisnt going to be a pro trainer running around with the e collar attaching it to various dogs, only how to implement the collar without causing issues.

K9: a long time ago, there was an idea (a bad one) that if you didnt let your dog get to know anyone, it was a good gaurd dog. We know better now & what they were doing was playing on the nerves / defence drive of an unsocialised / frightened dog. These days good programs socialise the dog but don't let i aquire a high value for strangers, so that the dog is socialised, knows what a stranger is, but doest hold out any value for them. This means there is no fear, defence or suspcion of strangers so it doesnt help or hurt protection work but gives better foucs on the handler often through drive which helps with reliability. Does hat make sense? K9: Perhaps try it the other way & see whith your next pup? K9: If your happy with the results then there is no mistake, as I said, after having tried this both ways, with many, many dogs, I feel what I do now gives me the best results. K9: It may not happen your way, it wont even be thought about mine. People come to my place, they have no issies with my dogs running around. Consider it, maybe next puppy. K9: Everyone is welcome to their opinion Julie, this type of work can be quite in depth so it takes questions & answers before people can get a feel for what the other is saying, & a small difference can make such a large one in the dog, the discussion is worth having. No one is wrong or right in such that there are more righter ways sometimes.

K9: yes I must give that a try K9: Again as you havent read the complete training program, you are making assumptions that aren't correct. K9: Neither can I? cant see where I did? Also LM has owned his collar for probably three months, so I dont think he is strapping the collar on at the first opportunity. K9: so your advice is to wait until after fear period two? Better consult the e collar manufacturers then, they say six months you said? Anyway this is way off topic & I am sure unhelpful to the OP.

K9: Sorry I didn't see where you were wondering, you actually typed it was ridiculous? K9: True, but I didn't make the comment about a young dogs hips & bones you did? K9: Are you saying that because a handler doesn know absoluetly everything about dfog traning they cant start? or that they cant learn anyting new along the way? I also dodn think LM gave ou a date on when he learned when he was surprised by the effect praise had on training, could have been yestderdsay or three years ago? K9: Of course it does, LM has a 50 page training guide that I have written on e collar use & has partaken in a 2 hour theory & practical lesson, I don think he was trying to type a blow by blow description of wha he has learned in this thread. K9: I didnt say you have a problem with the tool, but you did advise LM to go another way & stated reasons why. I dont think those reasons are a concern give his complete training program. K9: yep I remember you & your dogs there? You should know that motivaton is the cornerstone to all my training programs. K9: There are peobably 20 sides lol, few of them any good, but I dont think LM is a heavy handed meathead who will do wrong by his dog. One has to assess the client in terms of intelligence when selecting a program or a tool, I personally found him to be well within his intelligence to complete hos work, he also had someone wit him who also has some good understanding & skills from one of my other courses. I dont feel concerend at all about his dogs well being.

K9: yes exactly, I am glad you see my point. If one is recommending drive training over e collar work, it should not be anything to do with less impact on young bones. Didn't make sense to me. K9: If I wanted to say someone is wrong I have no hesitation doing so, so your wrong. K9: I read that Nekhbet was warning LM off using the e collar, & one of the points in that thread is regarding young hips & bones. K9: Well if was writing that reply to you, then that would be of concern.

K9: perhaps you should read my reply again. K9: Nice saying wonder where you heard that... wish I had thought of it oops maybe I did.

K9: Yes Kavik your correct...

K9: I guess thats the way the economy works, sad but true. There is also the other end of the argument, if it takes a trainer three years to get a dog to working level when another may do it in 18 months, there must be a lot of wrong steps being taken. K9: Any day a dog saves a life is a good day, but no one ever trains a dog knowing it will pass away saving them, they know its a possibility & is avoided at all costs. K9: At certain ages, dogs & people lose some flexibility, fitness & drive, its a factor of age, it would be a rare dog of any breed that goes as hard at 8 as it does at 2 or 3, & perhaps I guess it is nice to retire them to an easier life rather than pushing them to work until they have no life left?

K9: Your clearly pointing out once again that the fault would belong to the handler... But say I wouldn't use e collars? Does that mean that you don't trust yourself? K9: perhaps you could explain how you think e collars are used?

K9: Not sure how that makes you weird? It makes you just like most pet owners. K9: Thats something that no one can say, you cant run two time lines with the same dog which means you cant say what difference there would be if you did someting else. K9: That would be the actions of a dog with weak nerves, one that had poor learned experiences or one that had no socialisation. Nothing to do with whether they are patted or not. K9: Yes it is, but not because they were Afghans, I have never found them a difficult dog to train. But any breed can be trained without correction if: The trainer has the experience The dog has a enough useable drive or can have that drive developed. Things dont go wrong.

K9: I think the key her is the "a", one of. How many dogs did he try this with & fail? how many dogs would he fail with vs succeed with. We have accomplished some awesome success with my Traiing in drive programs, but at the end of the day, if the dog has learned drive success before training in drive starts, if the dog has low drive, you may need a corrective measure, that is the reality. K9: Isn't the above yo telling me what can be done, but your telling it from the persons point of view that hasn't done it? lol... I can breathe under water, but, for various reasons, one of them being I would die, I choose not to.

K9: 3 years to get a security do ready to work? That would be a very expensive dog with a short lived career...lol. K9: good e collar methods don't diminish drive... K9: I think your making a lot of assumptions here. Here is what I mean... Your telling him not to use an e collar but use drive, stating one of the reasons are that K9: Training in prey drive would run more risk of injuring these immature bones than wearing an e collar...? K9: This is true, but they occur not by the use of a tool but the actions of the handler & decoy. Just seems another person is jumping on the tool when the abuse is always in the user, not the tool... If you haven't gone through the training program that LM has, how can you be critical of it just because he owns a tool or two? I am sure you own the same tools & would be branded by some an abuser because you own the tool, but that doesnt make it true, does it?

K9: When the prong collar is fitted to the dog & the dog is just allowed to self correct then yes, when the collar is taken off it will pull again, but that would be the fault of the trainer. This will happen with any correction tool but it is more likely to occur with tools such as the halti or GL as they are more difficult to use in a training method. When the prong collar is used correctly the dog will learn to walk with no collar or leash on, next to the handler, fast. Some people who dream of the perfect world also forget that even when a dog has become collar smart to the prong collar & wont pull when wearing ine but will pull when one is not fitted, this is a drastic improvement over the dog that was pulling like a seatm train regardless of what the handler did before the prong collar... K9: Does that mean they dont exist? I have never seen air but breathe it daily. K9: The most desired direction is to teach your pup to walk with you, not pull you. This is done with a motivator & consistency. K9: Not if in those occasions you used them incorrectly. A: I agree, we own "difficult breeds" and do not use prongs or train with check chains. K9: I have never met a "difficult breed" in all my life...

K9: yeah we will see, I turn up & you all go quiet I bet lol

K9: excellent, my workshops are about communication & we all know that works both ways, I want to hear you all telling me about your dogs & asking questions!

K9: This should be a great workshop, I hope you are all so talkative when I arrive

K9: absolutely & exactly! She has done a wonderful job!

K9: LM has the 1902, largest of the Dogtras, the Dogtra 280NCP is for little guys & works very well.

K9: Its all in your mind, just like the Spider...

K9: wow that's a lot of Beers. lol...

K9: Thanks, it was meant to be smooth... I just didn't want to highlight again that I don't think you would know whether it would have made a difference or not. K9: but so far they haven't met a dog, right? Si far, noting bad has happened?, BUT, haven't your worst fears been played out? I really cant offer you any more advice, it is too hard to break through your beliefs regardless of the outcomes your dog has suffered. Think over what everyone is saying

K9: Playing the "see what happens" game can only turn out two ways, good, or bad. Thats a 50% chance of something bad happening, most people wouldn't bet on those odds. K9: why play then? It seems crazy to me that you promote this type of thing? You might be prepared to get bitten, break up a fight, but like I said, it is so much easier to avoid this? I dont crash my car because I have an Ambulance on stand by? K9: Some say pigs can fly too... I wish you luck....

K9: your welcome, as I said its a fine line, it would be best each & every time to have the dog assessed by an expert, but when that option is weighed up against costs, waiting time, complaining neighbours, council orders its a tough call on what is best. Some times we just post out a collar with the option of returning it & observe the dog, video if possible.

K9: Its fine line between using a bark collar on a stressed dog, barking causes stress so anything that stops barking can be of benefit. As I said, its a fine line & more info is needed.