Steve K9Pro

K9: Thank you all very much, I had a great time also. It is really great when everything comes together so nicely, great people, great dogs & a great venue. I am also very grateful that your attendance allows me to teach my programs all over the country. It was clear that the group were all dog enthusiasts with a passion for learning, it showed in your dogs just how much time you have put into them. I wanted to say a special thanks to all those who brought their dogs & let me work with them, including the Black GSD that gave me the kiss lol... PS: definitely would prefer to take the shepherd on before the Frenchy..... And a warm thanks also to Seita, who organised the whole thing for me, I was extremely well looked after & look forward to the next trip, & of course her little girl who all can clearly see is an amazing performer... We covered a lot of topics which I hope pleased everyone & didn't over load too many of you, it has been too long since I was in Qld doing one of these. I will aim to get back next year & will design the workshop around a more specific topic so we can go a bit further again than we did this time.

K9: She could be a late developer & be in her Fear Period, so being left alone, with a stranger could trigger an episode like this, although if she lost her bowel it must have been quite an episode. K9: well I cant? I would expect that when offering training advice they may give you an idea of what this training would be in hope to achieve? K9: I am not sure you need to do anything? One episode that you didn't see is something that would make me want to observe my dog, rather than try to fix something I haven't seen? Watch her with strangers, see if you can hold her still & do a mock eye clip in case something specific is freaking her out, but also look at http://www.k9force.net/index.html?row2col2=develop.html

K9: Not a particularly old model so not too many used ones floating around. They are a very effective tool if you follow the simple set up procedures, they are suitable for most any block. If you email us we have some good prices on these ATM [email protected]

I'll report back in 4-6 weeks so 9: I will be waiting

K9: The law is not sympathetic to those with aggressive dogs, they know little about them, dont want to know anything about them other than how to punish them.

K9: yes & no, someone reporting her for trying to grab other dogs could see you or at least her, in hot water. We don't take it lightly and make pretty damn sure it can't ever happen, but if a dog ran up to her and she was onlead, wouldn't it be the other owners fault for letting their dog rush her? K9: In reality yes, in the eyes of the law? Maybe not if your dog is aggressive & the other dog isnt. This is just all hypothetical but if the other dog was off leash in an off leash area then they would look at who was the aggressor I feel.

K9: yes & no, someone reporting her for trying to grab other dogs could see you or at least her, in hot water.

K9: I know you are, I dont read many posts (far too busy) but I dont see too many of your posts talking of how well some things are going, wins are wins, & you are getting some wins... K9: Not maybe, probably & even more probable genetic. Yes I would be painting that behaviour unacceptable to her. Any behaviour that is rewarding & ignored by the Alpha is acceptable in the dogs mind. K9: teaching basics opens up communication, communication basically tells a dog how to get rewards & when they are acting in ways that wont get them rewards, so yes this is the foundation. K9: If you give her a hard shove (training wise) for about 4 - 6 weeks you should see results that you will be proud of.

K9: These are the bigger concerns IMO.

K9: I am not offering any comments on whether the dog needs to be building drive, that's the owners call not mine. K9: Different breeds make different sounds. Any time anyone plays tug with their dog undesirable actions can emerge, this type of growl to me wasn't a concern, seen it thousands of times without a problem. Better results can be gained by looking at the posts I wrote earlier in the thread.

K9: Many dogs growl during drive building activities, but most of them do it on the tug rather than a ball toss for example. The clamping effort to hold the tug energises the neck muscles, this often creates a noise of some kind, some dogs naturally growl in the fight for the tug also. It has never bee a concern for me unless the dog has stopped tugging (exited prey drive) & is holding the item & making eye contact with me (entered rank drive). I had no problems with Trixies growls.

K9: It certainly sounds like it from your description, it is late but it could be peaking now. K9: Not really, any reaction you have to this fear only empowers it, ignore this behaviour & try to avoid taking her out too much over the next few weeks.

K9: An info mail will be coming to all attendees with all the info you will need.

K9: She may be fear aggressive outside the hoem with new dogs, but this wont be the problem when she is aggressive with your pack. K9: I wouldn't put this down as a nerve issue in every case, more a learned experience perhaps. K9: This indicates to me that she is unsettled in the pack K9: consistency & leadership often help with nerves, & whilst you may do a "lot" of leadership, she may need more than other dogs do. I try not to over stimulate these types of dogs, give them little in life to deal with & just work at simple rules & be consistent in the beginning. Measure the results by video & when you get a good foundation then increase the work you do. K9: throwing the ball for two dogs at once can create unhealthy competition & start pack fights, tethering one can add so much frustration the outcomes are infinite. Not taking her again will do nothing to reduce the drive already created. K9: again frustrating thus drive buidling for her. K9: As I mentioned then, different Alpha, which help confirm that is at least a part of the problem. I havent taken three dogs out & played ball, or taken her away from the dogs running at training so she would see me as a leader who wont tolerate her lunging & that she is so far below me that she wont feel its her job/responsibility to react / act towards other dogs. there were a few dogs there that as soon as I took the leash, displayed completely different behaviour, there were a few previous clients of mine there too who's dogs behaved just perfect with them as they had mastered the pack relationship with their dogs. I didnt feel Trixie to be a weak nerved dog, I more felt (during the prey drive work) that she had a nervous energy that stemmed from not being able to satisfy her drive with any predictability, in other words, any thing that moves could be a target when she is under guided. This means that prey drive is manifesting & not being corrected, there is no self control, no self limits when it comes to prey drive triggers & possibly not enough Alpha direction there.

K9: yes I can & thats a good thing!

K9: I have attempted plenty of times to re direct the thread, your right it shouldnt go this far off topic, but most threads do, for many reasons. K9: I don't use check chains or prescribe them on any dogs, I use Martingale collars on pups, purely from a safety stand point. They wont slip over the pups head. I don't advise people to use corrections though on pups under 20 weeks as I have mentioned. Also be aware of the development calendar posted in the puppy section, this can be a great aid.

Good for him! K9: Thanks for your comments, as I have said many times words to the affect "its not what is said, but what is heard" in this case, read. Maybe I was wrong? Only NB knows.

M: It should be read as a guide only, your pup may fall perfectly into these age groups or slightly out of them, it may have severe fear periods or rank periods or quite mild ones, but from my experience, all pups go through each & every one of them at some time to some degree.. 10 weeks is slightly? OK.... K9: working with dogs temperaments is not done on a slide rule, many factors can influence these development periods, in many cases they are all over by 18 weeks, which in the dogs life span is slight. If the threshold movement is only small, the novice may not be aware of the start & or the end, so when going to the styles of training that may involve corrections, 20 weeks is usually a good time to start if required, that's the rule of thumb I use. Hopefully, the owner would have set in place good training measures that will remove the need for corrections, but if they haven, having a safety margin doesnt hurt. K9: I will take that on board, but I think it is explained clear enough & if anyone is considering taking on some advanced training measures, they should of course have a professional on hand. That article was added to help people.

K9: Sorry I wasn't try in to be supporting or non supporting, rather pointing out that when you talk about dogs in the hundreds from different breeds temperaments, there is no hard & fast rule that works with all of them equally. Maybe I should have said it hat way. K9: Ok? K9: The topics of using different tools has come up man times, it is my belief that the abuse is not in the tool but in the user, so if user says that they wouldnt use a tool, I wnder if it is because they feel they mught be included to miss use it, thats why I asked a question rather than made a statement. K9: What criteria should I use, dont you use yours? K9: I guess it would be if I were the only one saying it. K9: I am not here promoting anything, I simply post on here beacause I want to. I dont need you refer dogs to me, if you did they would get the best advice & care I believe in & I believe that would be helpful to your clients/students. I didnt talk down to you in my opinion, just like Erny said about corrections, I guess it is about how they are perceived by the correctee rather than the corrector. If you feel I spoke to you out of line, for that I apologise. Jus participating in the discussion. I dont think you can get a true picture of how I work with clients & or their dogs from a forum.

K9: I know, I wrote it there. From that link.. The purpose of this calendar is to be used as a tool or guide for those raising pups to use to identify temperament changes in their pups during development. & later in that article... It should be read as a guide only, your pup may fall perfectly into these age groups or slightly out of them, it may have severe fear periods or rank periods or quite mild ones, but from my experience, all pups go through each & every one of them at some time to some degree.. So given this I wrote: We make sure the fear period is over, clearly, which in most dogs of both sexes is usually by 20 weeks, taking the safe line means 26 weeks Hope this clears that up for you..

K9: I wouldn't hand her back either, thats why I didn't type K9: not so simple as 123... K9: just replied to what you wrote? K9: It wasn't going to be a chargeable event, wasn't. Thanks for the compliments, I wont attack you in return though, I don't think its necessary, shame you do.

K9: Who is "we" & where did I skirt? K9: Perhaps a quick look around DOL will clear up whether I ask people not to discuss my e collar training methods or any training methds here, you will see many talking of them, no one is ever told don't talk about anything we do, so you need to think through your assumptions.

when you get an 8 week old puppy with below workable drive you hand it back. Why accept a dog that means more work and has a chance of not being usable at all. When we're talking about pups, yup it is 123. If you're pup has a bad experience at 8 weeks then you have the critical period to work it out, not withhold it from other people. K9: You forgot to type, "in your opinion". Not all dogs, as I mentioned are going to be security dogs, not all my answers are aimed at them either. I also mentioned the OP posters doesnt seem to have this in mind. K9: Again we would have t go through the complete program to understand the adjustments in socialisation values both positive & negative. Maybe next time in Vic we can catch up & I will explain what I do. K9: I don't think I have ever turned out a "stereotypical animal" K9: why didn't you hand her back? Isn't that what you said to do above? Like I said, its not 123. K9: Well if I used to do similar socialisation steps that you do now & have moved to something else, aren't I the one who isn't sticking with my "favourite method"? I really feel, as others are mentioning it now, that taking this conversation an further in this thread isnt helpful.

K9: Sure he does, but just to set the record straight, I am not handling that side of the work. I only instructed him on the e collar methods. K9: Dont be, were having no problems here. N: What happens if LM is very subtly just a little off the mark. Something a professional trainer can see but he may not. K9: Exchange the e collar in this case for a clicker, check chain, prey item, all the same can happen, we try as any trainer does to avoid this happening with good information & consistent follow up. K9: A I have tried to explain subtly man times, you would need to view the complete program, including his regular training with his regular local trainer before making assumptions. K9: We make sure the fear period is over, clearly, which in mos dogs of both sexes is usually by 20 weeks, taking the safe line means 26 weeks. K9: Some people feel, who have had many years of e collar experience, that the dog should wear the collar for up to three months before a stim is given, so it all various doesn't it. K9: I would be happy to, but were talking about LM & what instruction he has been givem not what I do or have done.

K9: or the dog has a medium level of drive or some previous learned experience may be adding complications. This is wha I mean by everyting isnt as simple as 123. K9: my comments are more designed around many different dogs dogs many different jobs, if were want to restrict the answers to dogs with nerves of steel & drives through the roof then yeah a lot of steps can be missed, but I work with more than dogs made of gold. K9: have a read more carefully of what I have written, the difference is in the details, the dgs do meet people, & other dogs & many other distractions, they just arent set up to get high value rewards from them. K9: You cant convince some people no mater what you do, snuggle or not...