Steve K9Pro

K9: Thanks Guys for the kind words, I really enjoyed the day too. I cant think of a time when one of my workshops was so full of great dogs that were so well behaved all day. They are really a credit to you all. We did take some pics & will go through them & put some here, for now here are a couple. I would really like to take this opportunity to thank all who attended for giving me the opportunity to present my methods methods & materials to you & your dogs. They all worked very well for me & made life easy for me.

K9: sounds like the person that corrected you was full of their own self importance.

K9: Most people have some feeding regime, but what it can look like from the dogs point of view is your dominating the dog by raising & lower food with you between the dog & the temptation (food). The TOT allows the dog to experiment through various behaviours until it looks to the Alpha for guidance. This makes you part of the solution not part of the problem & also communicates to the dog that self control & asking the Pack Leader what to do is better than pulling on the leash. K9: send me an email & I will send you back my phone number, I will give you some tips on what to do with your dog for now.

K9: Of course I agree with you on this one, in fact when I brought discussion of e collars & prongs to DOL, yep it was me, every mention of them brought an uproar, but with it came education & now there are many threads with only the odd negative comment. Some peoples posting styles could use some work to get the message across clear I do agree, but in the end its a forum I guess & I guess you can please everyone.

K9: your pup probably is in the late stages of the Rank & Shaping period, this is followed by the Selective deafness or independence period. You will see these periods in my Puppy Development Calendar at the top of the Puppy section or my website here. This is not abnormal behaviour but it is a indicator that you need to step up your leadership with this pup now. My Triangle of temptation program is also a sticky here, get that running in your pack as a foundation & see what impact it has. If your still having these issues after two weeks shoot me an email.

K9: True perhaps he had intentions of adding more info later? who knows. K9: Horses for courses, a training club is of little use & possibly more harm if the dog is overly distracted by other dogs. K9: Perhaps, but I dont think it is necessary for anyone even to reply, but they do, that's what makes a (good) forum. Perhaps if the OP had shown interest he would have continued the same line of thought. K9: and... they may not... There is a lot of speculation here... K9: Maybe, but all threads go in different directions, some times were happy with the direction, other times were not. One thing for sure is, information is exchanged & recorded for future learning, that isnt a bad thing.

K: If you read my first post I did explain how to do a recall with long line, though I guess it could have been more comprehensive It certainly gave more information than "use a long line" in response to Midol's "use an ecollar". K9: I just took another look, I don't see it as a training guide though (your post that is), but then again I don't think training via a forum would be a wise idea, too many little details that can be missed that will effect the out come. If someone was to read a post, follow those steps & not get results, it can make them feel like its hopeless & give up.

K9: I didn't perceive it that he put forward there was no other option. I read that in his opinion & he actually even included it was his opinion, the e collar was the best tool. K9: sure there is, plenty of people posted suggestions, including me but he still is entitled to write a post how he feels best will help the OP & as I mentioned, I didnt see where he said there was no other way, just his preferred way. K9: possibly, but people have suggested a long line without explaining what to do with it?

K9: You sure? don't seem that way... K9: so if people accept the blame you think that will remove the problem of a dog that wont recall? I see clients all the time that take blame with the use of hind sight, but it does not cure the problem. I agree people cold take a more pro active stance on training a young pup but when they dont, the next best thing is to try & cure what (inadvertantly?) have caused. K9: The e collar used properly involves no pain or any suffering, more like the fastest return to freedom known to man or dog. K9: educate them? K9: personally I think you are talking from a hypothetical point of view as I believe you have never ran a class of e collar trained dogs. As I have, many times, this doesn't happen any more with this tool than mistakes happen with any other tool. K9: And without the e collar there would be many more, world wide. K9: but it does seem to point out that you have not trained a reliable recall in 7 months.... I think the e collar was put forward by a member of the forum who has had great results with it, as a member he has every right to share his experience. The inappropriateness seemed to come when he wasn't allowed to make a suggestion & was advised to get a Gold Fish. I wonder would that be an appropriate comment on a Gold fish forum.

K9: there are many tools that fall into most of these categories though & I agree whilst the OP is probably new to DOL, this doesn't really indicate where they are at in training. I think it would be wrong to eliminate any tool that gives results from this thread simply because of these reasons. I also believe that everyone has equal rights here to put fourth their thoughts.

K9: Oh wow, so everyone who hasnt been able to train a recall should see there is no point to owning a dog? K9: Yes that's clear in your posts. K9: wonder why they would do that? K9: after reading some of your posts one might ask a similar question of you? Why should new posters be subjected to your discriminatory style posts on the e collar fir the lack of your understanding? K9: Arent you human? :D K9: Sorta similar again to your posts right? P: K9: This world speeches arent really aimed at helping the OP are they? They just seem a little soap boxish to me.

K9: This is correct, however there already is a foundation, a foundation that is built on the dog blowing off the owner. K9: I cant see where anyone said "the only way is"... & I am not sure your qualified to advise people on what pets they should stick to. The e collar is definitely one way & probably the most reliable way. K9: if the dog has engaged in barking or has little pack drive this will serve no purpose. K9: if he hasn't gotten himself into trouble by running onto a road whilst the OP is hiding behind a tree. K9: If you don't have experience with e collars then I agree, you should not use them without pro help. K9: I always marvel at people who try & paint quick fixes in a bad light? I wonder what the benefit of a slow fix is? If a slow fix is good, then no fix must be excellent? :D

K9: one thing that people don't realise is that practice doesn't make perfect, it makes permanent. By recalling your dog & getting the dog to comply some times means your making permanent his lack of reliability. I would go back to the rule that if you don't have a reliable recall, he doesn't go off leash. This may mean the use of the long line also. K9: More good reasons to keep him on leash. K9: This is the best tip I can give you, seek out a pro trainer in your area that will help. I have had a brief read of the rest of the replies & all were really hearing is others beliefs in which I will add mine, but as I said, get a pro on the job & things will come easy.

Or would be it such that every dog would have some degree of drive in some form? K9: every dog has some level of drive, some have such high thresholds to drives that drive itself rarely manifests other have bnerve issues that raise the thresholds to positive drives making them unseen & unusable also. K9: Even more so in dogs is the difference between sub conscious levels of thought & conscious levels of thought. K9: more or less that's pretty much it...

K9: sort of, training increases the dogs mental capacity which enables the dog to progress throughout the modes of drive with control. K9: Yes of course, but this can be done sveral ways, the most common being to add aversives to raise the dogs threshold to prey drive. Meaning the dog begins to see the prey item as something that leads to pain no prey drive satisfaction. There are of course other ways & some people will tell you that it isnt possible at all. K9: Their instict allows them to triger prey drive, the rest is trained in. K9: If a young dog was let out to sheep & it was harrassing attacking or biting the sheep, it wouldnt be out there for months doing this. K9: The conditioning to work in extreme conditions isnt anything to do with choice, like our soldiers that were sent to the Middle East to become aclimatised to the weather. They already knew how to do their job, just needed to get the weather distraction under control. No different to a Police dog that is trained to clkimb stairs etc, the drive reward may be waiting at the top of the stirs but some training is needed. K9: In drive peak the adrenalin flow is at its highest, in times of high adrenalin the pain threshold is raised considerably, this exists with all mammals including us. K9: Adrenalin is a powerful chemical that can & will over ride pain.

K9: Drive is a subconscious reaction to stimuli, you cant force a dog into drive or condition drive when it isn't there. In dogs not trained through drive the dog has very little choice when it goes into drive, the trigger (rabbit?) being chased for example has more control over the dog than the dog does.

K9: Although I am thrilled at this story, it doesn't surprise me much, Shell followed the programs with Military precision & the results have come fast for Zero. She has done the program I designed more than justice, few professionals are pulling these results with dog aggression at Zero's level. At the Dog Aggression workshop people kept asking me why Zero was there? Had to pick a few jaws up when I told them he was very dog aggressive not so long ago. His behaviour was faultless with many dogs displaying aggression both around him & toward him. Bombproof My hat goes off to you Shell! Well done...

K9: This is freakish behaviour, not common. Anything I say about this cat would be but speculation as we don't know the history & or the genetics of the kitten & I just don't have the time to speculate here. I have contributed much time to this thread, answered all your questions about how dog temperaments work & this comes from a dog behaviour specialist, & just more questions with examples of parallels come up, & always will. There are many cross overs between all mammals but they do also vary greatly. Its my belief that hares, kittens & dogs all have similarities but are also not the same in either behaviour or genetics. The very best thing one can do is stick with what works for them, if they want something that works better then I have some super programs that work very well, all which I discuss at lessons, consults, workshops etc. I just don't have the time to fully explain each & every step right here so that everyone will be completely educated on the subject, one reason is that every dog is in someway different & it would take a full over all explanation, then many small adjustments for each persons individual dog.

K9: Many thanks for the kind words...

K9: Sort of, its as simple as training the dog in drive to recall before the dog learns how to gain prey drive success on its own. K9: yes or specific times of the day, or common areas the triggers have been before. K9: I start to work with the raw drive the moment I get the pup 7.5 weeks. K9: sounds like a plan. K9: Even the weakest nerved dogs can show dominance in the right (or wrong) circumstances. K9: It would depend on whether the Alpha & whether they considered it dominance or not actually. K9: I rest my case. K9: No reason to. Neutralisation does not make a non nervous dog into a nervous one. K9: No problems, my own dogs stay at kennels without issue. They don't dislike people, but just when I am around no one else exists. K9: Independence isn't created through a reward structure but rather a pattern of being left alone at times.

K9: Contact Jane Harper, [email protected] she is very good.

K9: Its only difficult if he had no interest in the ball. teach him to hold a piece of wood, do this with food say, its a calm step. Then when he will hold it, teach him to stay. Walk backwards then call him to you, take the item & give piece of food. When he is doing it well, swap the food for the ball & he will do it in drive...

K9: Show the dog the ball, through steps you teach the dog to fetch the "insert your desired item here" & you will give the ball..

K9: Absolutely, the example I gave of SARDOGS lab is a perfect example, I can give you many of my own dogs, but for some reason as they are mine people expect that so I really like giving examples of other peoples dogs, to show it can be done, by other than me. K9: It is my belief that the movement of a rabbit will trigger the dogs raw prey drive, the dog will give chase & when it does or doesn't catch the rabbit, it will absorb the scent. The scent will transfer into a trigger for the dog in later times. With high prey drive dogs, people make the mistake of doing nothing with the raw drive, then the dogs natural desire to achieve drive satisfaction kicks in, the dog finds a way to satisfy the drive, perhaps chasing rabbits, then it will take a corrective measures to try & regain some obedience... If your anywhere near one of my Training in Drive workshops, you should come along, its explained pretty well there.

K9: goes back to the prisoner theory though doesnt it... K9: or some could be born with greater pack drive & some with less, which will give you the same results. K9: Isnt that a bit of a "predication"? I might.. I havent seen your dog.. How do you feel that your dog would go in a wild pack, running ip t the Alpha & bahaving this way? K9: & I only yell & bang on the bar when I want a drink... lol wouldnt be acceptable under any terms would it... lol.. The "he wants" section is where the dominance lays. K9: Maybe we use the term snuggling differently, but there isnt any pic in that thread that I cant give you a realistic reason for the occurance. K9: It is the point of the thread though, neutralisation, I have dogs with very high prey drive, they wont chase what I dont say is prey. My son can hold my prey toys in front of them & they dont see it as prey. If he gives me the same item the same dogs light up. It is a common problem but one that is easily over come with neutralisation. K9: Most dont recognise that it is a problem. K9: So these dogs will really go where its best for them, I just cant call that ok in my book.