Steve K9Pro

K9: I have always found that having the dog retrieve the reward isn't the best idea. It creates a number of problems that will need to be over come. I teach people to train the dog to value the toy & then teach the dog to bring me something to buy the toy. K9: Not for the same reasons but many people face this same problem, they train manners into their dog & later on decide to give training in drive a shot, but the previous training has built in a reluctance to go into drive in there presence. It can be a b it of work but usually can be overcome to a degree.

.K9: Seems you would have been right to say it! lol

K9: Your pup is probably just trying to get you to play, it seems it is being triggered by your raised voice? I would try grabbing the pup & holding it still & see what effect this has. K9: Vets are good for curing a sick dog, they are not stand out in training & behaviour so no it isn't true. How are you training when your pup is deaf?

K9: Agree too, number one drive building tool is frustration, so it needs to be part of every development session if you want to increase drive. K9: It sure does as is having a goal before you start, many people with dogs that have great drive cant utilise drive as their early training ideals have taught the dog to stay out of drive around the Alpha, this can be tough to break the dog out of. In our Training in drive training courses dogs being too well behaved around the Alpha is number one problem.

K9: I actually remove all toys & lower all outside stimulation so that all of the dogs energy can be put back into training in drive. K9: Absolutely, people see their dog go into drive & keep going so long they tire it out of drive... K9: Yep & the people we train to compete make sure they turn up to trials with a hungry dog, one that has not eaten for at least 24 hours. (within reason also) K9: I more look for a toy that will A) last B) wont pull dogs teeth out like some rope tugs do C) fits in the dogs mouth witout making the dog stretch (jaw pain reduces drive) K9: This type of activity is good, but some people need to watch out it isnt developing rank drive in their dogs & the dogs end up fighting at later stages due to pack unrest.

K9: Some dogs just have high threshold to prey drive & no amount of training or playing will develop their prey drive into a usable training tool. I agree many people give up way too early but we need to know that some dogs just wont be useful for training in prey drive, but then we can look at their other drives & see what they have that we can use. K9: I strongly agree it isn't breed specific, no training or motivation really is, but some dogs will not work for a toy, ever & if prey isnt theor primary drive then trying to work with a toy is counter productive also. K9: In my eperience we use moist meat, it creates a scent & doesnt jam in the throat of a driven dog, but, if food is used right in a training program the TASTE of the food isnt that important. When many dogs go into full food drive, they often dont eve eat the food after they have captured it. Eating & the taste commonly becomes secondary to tertiary to winning it. I would be very careful with this one, games like two ball & two foods often produced a mouthy dog when it comes t dumbell retrieval. K9: just playing devils advocate here, I would take a guess that your body langauge & excitement level oround the jackpot container may have something to do with the excitement exhinited by your dog. K9: It is also goal dependant, if were trying to build up a solid hold for say a sleeve snathcing it out will increase the grip. Again I never teach people to use two toys, the mouthy / nervy dog that it can produce can take a long time to fix. I prefer to gain the toy back by making it (the prey) go dead. Then the millisecond that the dog opens its mouth I give release command & move the toy again. teach thst if you give me back the toy I will make it live again. For dogs that already have a very high value for the item or have developed a conflistc of hwo toy it is, I have a leash technique that helps them out the toy without corrections. K9: I have a rule that says "never let the dog start the game". Once you do you can find that you have trouble starting it when you want as the dog has the start switch. Some of these suggestions though are great!

K9: Many thanks, Stamp is a great dog...

K9: Its pretty straight forward; It sounds to me, from your posts only, that your dog may not be fear aggressive. If I am right & your treating fear aggression in a dog with rank aggression the problem will only worsen. Yes, he felt she was fear aggressive- the ol' get the other dog before he gets me routine which I am in total agreeance with. He has seen my leadership skills and witnessed her behaviour first hand with her nemisis down the road. He also witnessed my response at the time (terror!!) and gave me advice based on what he felt I could cope with in those circumstances. It has been management of the dog's issues combined with our home environment. Now that I am more confident (thanks to his coaching) I was looking for other people's experiences on how they have stopped the actual acting out. K9: If you have had a qualified behaviourist assess your dog & you have a program to follow, stick with that if you feel this person is correct. Just so you know though, the offence is the best defence is common in fear aggressive dogs. But, being offensive is also the action of a rank dog. Aggression is not as simple as many forms of dog training, it can be quite in depth & have many layers of different types of aggression to unravel. These need to be teased out & dealt with. I hope this makes it more clear for you.

K9: I am not saying really, I haven't seen your dog to say. K9: certain temperament types will never show dominance to people but will to other dogs. K9: It sounds like your playing what I call "the see what happens game". This only ever turns out good or bad, so at best what your doing would have only a 50% success rate, yes? K9: none of the symptoms you describe are what I am talking about. I was just commenting that many of your posts paint the picture of a rank dog not a defensive dog, but, I haven't seen your dog, worked with her or anything so it is just a hunch. A lot of people put a lot of faith in my hunches though & as I said, the programs - treatments & therapies for each of these aggression styles is totally opposite. I wish you all the best.

K9: still have the client sheet you filled out outlining your goals. Yes showing was one of them. If you still call yourself a Novice handler after the amount of time you have spent, you are playing something down. K9: You brought it up not me. K9: I never forget any dog trusted in my care. I forget people all the time, always remember the dogs. K9: Yes thats true, I like to think the information I gave you will last a lifetime though. k9: You keep typing about the past though....

K9: there are various forms of rank drive, but often rank drive is a product of over confidence, lack of leadership or fear aggression turned confident. Rank driven dogs gain drive satisfaction by exerting dominance, commonly through aggression.

K9: when someone comes to me with a dog & tells me their goals, if I do not see those goals happening with that dog I don't sell them lessons until they get board, I tell them up front it wont happen. What you have achieved with her is great, however, it isn't what you wanted to do back when you got her, you set different goals since then, based on the dogs nerves & drives. So, I guess you followed my advice whether you intended to or not. Well done.

K9: Deelee, there are some things in your posts that don't suggest to me your dog is fear aggressive, rather rank aggressive, the treatment of the two different styles of aggression is totally different. This may be where your problems or some of them lay.

K9: I did not on any occasion tell you to get rid of any dog. I said that if she did not meet your goals & you didn't want her that would be your choice. I could count on one hand the amount of dogs that I have seen for aggression or other behavioural problems that I have recommended the dog be euthanised. These were cases in which the danger to the family & their lack of experience outweighed keeping the dog. None of your dogs fell into that category. I am only interested in discussing facts with you.

K9: I am sorry to hear that he isnt well. K9: Agreed K9: There was more a degree of urgency on your part to keep moving on, & without a solid foundation on the bottom level, that wouldn't have been wise. K9: as long as your happy, all is good.

K9: To wean off a tool is the choice of the handler, weaning off is right for some people, not others & better to have a reliable recall with an e collar than no recall at all. Sometimes, to get what you want, you have to focus on what you have first. Look for the positives. K9: You have to start somewhere & I suggest again, you have to look at the positives to move on. K9: The program works by increasing the pressure, using the same non reactive dog over & over again wont be any therapy for the dog in treatment. K9: Of course, & that means that if he met dogs without them getting in his face he would be greatly improved, have a super recall, stop command & other valuable improvements & skills he has learned. PLUS PLUS PLUS. I do agree with you that your set goal was too high in the time frame you set, but far from impossible to achieve given a longer time span or stepped goals.

K9: It is of course a good idea to set a realistic goal & work with a professional to achieve that goal. I would also like to point out that some people whom have had an aggressive dog, think that rehabilitation means that they would never see aggression from their dog in any situation ever again. This simply isn't realistic because a dog that isn't dog aggressive will show aggression under the right or wrong circumstances. Exposing a dog to twenty off leash dogs that run up to it with out a hint of control can very often present reactions from any dog including aggressive reactions. The reality is that under the right provocation or impression, any one or anything can display aggression. I have had many success stories in which people have achieved outstanding results, they did follow the program to the letter, they did have their ups & downs but never did they give up or vary from the program. They didn't continue on with activities I warned against, they didn't invent their own steps into the training program & they didn't just take small prices of the training program & apply the parts they wanted. They did every part & reaped the rewards. The rewards were "They met their goals." They didn't need countless decoy dogs, unlimited lessons or finances, but they did need to be seriously committed. K9: This is true, having a reliable recall that you can depend on relieves a lot of stress as you can run your dog off leash & not carry the negative feelings of fear that are often read by the dog & encourage negative reactions by the dog/s. The last time I saw Rex he had an outstanding recall, I also watched him run toward a dog that was aggressing toward his younger pack member & he was commanded to stop, in which he did instantly. Perhaps he has a few more tricks he has been taught that you dont give credit for? for example: K9: I remember using my entire male to do exactly this whilst I handled Rex with no aggression displayed. I was very proud of Rex that day, it was a big step for him. ******************************************** . K9: It is a delicate subject where good ground work of aggression must be taught first, I wouldn't do it just by teaching the steps of the e collar & leave people no idea on how aggression works in a dog. Therefore it would be quite in depth. teaching it one on one however is a lot easier.

Hey, what about past demonstration dogs? K9: I cant think of a time when one of my workshops was so full of great dogs that were so well behaved all day. Meaning the whole workshop was FULL of great dogs. I have had the pleasure of having some great past demo dogs, Stamp is one of those.

K9: It isn't a matter of using the e collar, it is a mater of adding the e collar to a good complete training program. The tool alone will do very little for you. K9: Do keep in mind that possibly an increase in aggression would have occurred anyway. I have been using e collars to treat aggression for many years, they are in many ways an emotionless correction that is easily converted to a communication cue when the owner is taught how to use one within the training program. Aggression in most cases can be rehabilitated, but most people taper off in their training because they have reached a level of success or maintenance they are satisfied with, others however progress on to total rehabilitation. It in the end it is more to do with the owner than the dog. I would say though, I would not attempt to learn this from someone without any experience in using the e collar to treat aggression, someone experimenting wont help. Some things work better on some dogs or with some owners but it is also essential to have a behaviourist assess your dog to make sure your treatment is designed off the correct diagnosis.

Maya the GSD doesnt spend a lot of time on the ground...

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