Steve K9Pro

K9: Lets keep in mind that there is no such things as neutralisation, it is a name I added to get attention from my clients so they would not assume I wanted them to socialise as normal. There is no real way we can see whether there is an actual neutral value or slightly positive value. In my diagram I suggest set the value of otehr dogs & strangers for most pets at around 0 to + 3, the numerical value is just for us to understand don't go over the top but certainly get away from any uncertainty of what a dog is, what it represents, or what it can give you. It could have well been named "selective socialisation" or "careful socialisation".

K9: The idea of neutralisation is to set low values to other dogs & people outside the pack, not leave the dog as un socialised & have no skills in dealing with other dogs. There is plenty of interaction with other dogs, just we dont allow the interaction to lead to overly rewarding activities that the dog will seek over the Alpha & the alphas rewards & motivators. K9: Say you have a neutralised dog & you walk it through a dog park through dogs that come up to yours, your dog would ideally look at the otehr dogs & look back to you & the walk progresses on, similar if your dog saw a park bench, its there, no big deal lets keep moving. K9: pack skills are not diminished through neutralisation they are more importantly level headed not over the top excited wanting to play. K9: there are no effective downsides other than you wont be able to go down to the local park & have other peoples dogs excercise your dog & or entertain it, that will remain your job.

K9: Physically or mentally? I feel you think that only physical harm is the risk here. As you like to explain things in human terms, if the little dog in the video was a child, what that be ok as long as the child wasnt physically hurt? K9: what is the small percentage? Perhaps if you sat in my consult room for a week that percentage wouldn't be as small as you think. K9: Our social environment has changed & dogs have evolved, yes that method has been around for a long time, just like hitting a dog on the nose with a rolled up newspaper, we know better now. K9: You also see nothing wrong in that video, you feel that dogs are safe as long as they physically are & you have admitted that your own dog socialised in your method will do anything to play & that your obedience has been compromised. There really isn't anything else you need to say.. The risks of what you do are mental injury, not physical, compromised obedience, dogs invading other dogs space, lack of respect for the owner & of course physical injury. K9: Based on? You have never done it? K9: It is not a fear of either, it is an avoidance of both when they serve no purpose only to add negativity to the bond between dog & human. If you haven't figured that out in the numerous times I have written it I don't know how many more times & or ways I can write it... K9: Lots of people steal, murder & rape... is that how you tell the best thing to do? If lots of people do it? lol... Perhaps it would be best if you read the original thread again & take into consideration the people on that thread & this one that have said that they will neutralise next time because X happened to their dog this time. For the record, no one here is being asked to neutralise their dogs, neither method is sure fire means to success, I believe that done correctly, neutralisation stands a much greater chance of keeping your dogs temperament safe & having a better bonded dog that respects you & is obedient. This opinion comes from someone who has socialised many dogs in both ways & has the finger on the pulse of what is going on in our world rather than just my back yard.

K9: I have no doubt! Your a winner & Zero is now a winner too... An absolute dream client...

C: Uh huh, I'm aware of that. It's why I like having dogs. They are so freaking forgiving. They naturally want to spend time with me. It's like a holiday. Still, dogs are animals and there are similarities. Before I'd raised a wild animal myself I didn't recognise the diminished trust in my own dog. My guess is you won't see it. Doesn't mean it's not there. K9: What do they forgive? What do they need to forgive you for? How did you diminish the trust? & if they are forgiving, why is it (the diminished trust) still there, even though I cant see it? Whilst there are similarities, I bet you don't take your wild Hare to the Dog park? C: All the things you have brought up could happen anywhere. I've seen C happen on my driveway, although thankfully my dog was safely behind it all with me. No one got hurt, but one of the 5 dogs involved was the one that bit my mother in trying to get to my dog once. K9: they will never happen when there is only one dog.... Now if this can happen in your driveway, cant you see that a dog park full of dogs has a much higher elevated risk? C: I've been to loads of dog parks and beaches at really busy times and I've never seen anything that has been as scary and potentially dangerous as the things I've seen just walking my dogs on leash around the neighbourhood. Play that turns aggressive is hard to pick because sometimes the dogs are just being rough and noisy. If you are scared of it then I guess it's a worry and a risk. I've only stepped in once because I've thought that play is turning aggressive and it was much like the video you showed only the dogs were about the same size. K9: Ok? but what your describing is your experience, there is no guarantee that the next time you go to the dog park, trouble wont arrive just after you. Do you think the dogs were playing in the video? C: It only happened because my dog is an idiot that will put up with anything to play. K9: This is my point exactly, why would your dog put up with anything? IT HAS TOO HIGH A VALUE FOR THE PLAY. Your are the perfect example of why neutralisation is much safer for dogs... This last sentence only stands to prove that your dog wont read another dog & stay away, it wont back off at the first sign of aggression, because it is too intent on getting what it wants to notice the other dog just doesn't want to play. C: She tried it on a few other dogs and they all walked away and she left it. So I do think it is a risk for my particular dog, but every time I've seen it it's been easy to put a stop to it and calm everyone down. They go right back to playing nicely afterwards. K9: "Your particular dog"? That's what you have been using as evidence that your way does work? Now your dog isn't a good example of your way? C: Personally, I don't like to see my dogs frightened at all, but sometimes it happens anyway. K9: Because your at the dog park perhaps? lol.. I think if my dog was able to grasp the concept of "would you rather we never went to the dog park so that you never get scared" he would answer "god no! Bring on the puppers!" K9: I know you think that... But as dogs are incapable of that type of thought, what you think he would say is what you want to hear. C: If we went to the park 100 times he might get scared, say, 4 times. The other 96 times were funfunfun. If we went 100 times and he got scared 20 times, I'd be questioning if we should keep going with him, because he's a resilient little man. For some dogs getting scared 4% of the time is too much. K9: Ok so your limit is 20%, what is your dogs? Oops w=he cant tell you. I know dogs that have changed the way they view other dogs after one attack, previously they played 1000 times. Would you apply the same rule to crossing a highway with your eyes closed, you only get killed once, the rest of the time its just dumb dumb dumb. lol. C: My dog wouldn't run away. Penny wouldn't go near it in the first place and Kivi would be belly up looking away and with his tail tucked and ears back. K9: & then the rank dog attacks anyway, what now? C: Even Penny, who is a snarky old so-and-so these days, would absolutely display full submission to a so-called rank aggressive dog. K9: she would or does? Are you typing what you want to believe will happen? C: She's not suicidal. K9: dog not capable of suicide. :D C: But that's all beside the point. The scenario in the video didn't look that bad to me. K9: And I guess that explains it pretty well, I would have that happen to my dog, it isn't fun, it isn't safe & if the little dog wasn't fast it may be injured or dead, hardly a fun walk in the park. The on lookers don't agree with you either based on their comments. C: It was hard to see details, but the dog didn't look to me like it intended to hurt anyone. This is why you don't take dogs that scare easy to dog parks. K9: OOO kayy... The larger dog was attempting to maul the smaller dog, MAUL. C: As my dog isn't human it's a moot point. My dogs don't link events that happen more than ten seconds apart. K9: who wears the watch, you or the dog? ten seconds ... hilarious. C: To make it clear, my dog was starting to find trips to the dog park very exciting and his recall was slipping. K9: Hmm, thats what I said happens. C: I cut back the trips to the dog park and made a few trips to quiet places without dogs instead where we ran around and played with the dog and practised recalls with fewer distractions. K9: or in other words, you took him to play with dogs until it compromised his obedience, then you had to retrain it.. I think that is what I have been saying all along. You summed up pretty much in this post that the things I warn against have all happened to you, including your dog getting so intent on playing, it wont back off from an aggressive dog, there have been fights, you have diminished the trust & the obedience of your dog suffered by your actions. Now that you have yourself written this I wonder if it is more clear to you or will you still explain things off as you just want things to be the way you want them, even if they are not. C: If you depend on neutralisation, what do you do if you are walking your dog on leash down the street and a dog without an owner comes trotting up to you, hackles up, tail up, ears forward, eyes staring, growling? K9: I stand out in front of my dog & chase the otehr dog away. That is the job of the Alpha. C: In my 13 years of dog ownership I've seen a lot of tense situations and very few of them have had much risk of anyone being injured K9: well yeah but that's coming from someone who thinks that video is perfectly fine. C: People seem to forget that aggression in dogs is largely ritualised. Now bunnies, when they fight they set out to do damage and they can and do kill each other. If they start fighting you have to stop it as soon as possible every time. They don't mess around with all the noise and show that dogs do. Dogs are like rattlesnakes. Every capability of causing serious damage or even killing, but rarely do it without warning. K9: Dogs aren't rabbits, bunnies or rattle snakes & they are not like either of them no matter how much you want them to be. You know what they are like though? dogs. Good luck Corvus..

K9: Dogs aren't wild animals, wild animals wont go up to other wild animals to play that they don't know, their thresholds to defence are much lower than dogs (due to domestication). If my experience laid with Elephants for example it would natural for me to draw lines of conclusion between the two, but the the two aren't a like just because I can draw a line. K9: Thats quite a list of skills & things you have to keep an eye out for, but they are all flawed. A. Not all dogs start off by looking aggressive, play can turn aggressive. B. Your dog may not have read the other dog correctly & look quite ok a millisecond before it is attacked. C. Three dogs tearing yours apart means no matter how close you are, you cant do a whole lot. Like I said, many don't start aggressive, they turn that way in a flash & I would wonder just how much fun it is if you have to stand on guard waiting for trouble the whole time? D. A dog that doesn't scare easily or recovers from a scare? But above you said that dogs will lose trust in you if you frighten them? Now it is ok to frighten them if they recover fast? I am a bit lost in your train of thought. You have also neglected to tell us what will happen when your dog comes up against a rank dog, the one you described above is defensive/fearful. The rank dog wont air snap, it wont be trying to shoo your do away but to dominate it. If your dog runs away, the rank dog is as likely to chase it down & pin it, see the video at the bottom. When this happens it wouldn't be unusual for another dog to join in, pack mentality means attack the weak & have two dogs, maybe even your second dog, attack your first dog. Numbers don't have to stop at 3 in the fight, it is a coin toss. In seconds your dog could be torn apart. K9: You have said in previous posts that they slink up to others to join in the play. K9: Unless they display full submission, the rank dog doesn't need an excuse, plus you have suggested that most dogs bark, growl or snap at them, they must be doing something... K9: A dog that has been aggressive for a while can easily turn into a dog that attacks first, they don't run off your rule book nor mine. I don't know how fast you think you are but I have seen dogs fights kick off in the blink of an eye. If in your description above, your standing by & a dog tries to attack yours, your dog runs into your legs, all of a sudden your both under attack. K9: Neutralisation means your dog wouldn't be there. K9: Agreed, but risk isn't singular, or linear, there are higher risks & I believe dogs parks are the highest. The methods you have in place so far have worked for you but they are calling on what I would call a lot of luck. Not everyone is that lucky, & as I said, others read these posts & may go trying what you do to their dogs detriment. K9: probably, but that most likely is as you wouldn't want me to know? I have people here every day tell me what their dogs do & why, when it is explained to them the real reason & what the dog is really feeling, often they agree instantly saying that makes a lot of sense. K9: Above you have come up with 4 things that you need to remember, watch for etc, one of those means you have to be able to move at the speed of light, another means that you hope that all dogs will be fear aggressive. Another means you have to stand on top of your dog so you can be there just in case & the last means you have to have a certain type of dog... As I mentioned those (flawed) reasons are a big job for an un necessary gain, which may turn into a loss fast. To make it as simple as it can be: 1.Dogs playing playing with each other is not something they need. 2. Dogs playing with each other can easily turn nasty in the blink of an eye 3. Dogs that gain a high value for other dogs will require more training to regain or obtain obedience (fact) & some people may never regain or obtain that obedience which opens up a whole new can of risk worms. 4. Dogs approaching dogs they do not know isn't natural pack behaviour. 5. Dogs approaching other dogs isn't always welcomed even by the other dogs owner. 6. Something as simple as an air snap at a pup in a fear impact period can turn that pup into a fear aggressive attacker in one instance. 7. Many people cant read dogs well, many dogs cant read other dogs well & many dogs give very little signs that they are going to be aggressive. I could go on. K9: Anthropomorphism (the humanising of dogs) is the creation of many do problems, your dog doesn't think that way. They work on an associated value system & not much else, but say this section is true, in your last paragraph you took your dog to a park to let him play with other dogs, he got to look it a bit too much, so you took that away & did something else? How would a human like that? Finally it is worth taking a look at this clip, you cant see the body language before the aggression started but look at the bigger dog after, no signs of aggression. If you had arrived just after this large dog looks like no threat. Also when the smaller dog finally was rescued from the larger dog, note what the larger dog does, it jumps on the owner until she had to hold the small dog above her head. Not so easy to do with a bigger dog & there is solid risk that the larger dog could have attacked that lady in the process. Dog park

K9: By the pic in your sig it looks like you got a flying dog lol

K9: The Story of Grace is always a good reminder of how the best intentions can steer a dog downhill fast.

K9: Its clear that your becoming defensive as people point out sections of your opinion that they don't like or see holes in that could cause it others to fail. If I may offer a suggestion it is that many people on DOL are aware that the posts serve many people for many years, & they strive not so much to disagree with you as they try & highlight to other, less experienced readers & future readers that there may be some things that you point out that may not be the case with all dogs. I personally don't have an issue with what you have written but I would like to say that, the experiences that you describe with your dogs are not common, the actions you describe would be high on the list of things done by people who I now consult with as their dogs have become fear aggressive. All I say is that, in what you do, comes a lot of risk. k9: Have you tested this or speaking hypothetically, because most dogs when pushed will display submission, they seemingly beg harder for your attention, not lose trust. If there were no socialisation value to a person that was hard on the dog, this may not be the case but when it is the owner, not so. I have seen people beat their dogs only to have the dog squirm at their feet the next time, licking their face (submissive act), so all is not what it would seem to be. From your descriptions it seems that you haven't caused fear in your dogs, but who knows, I have heard for years on here how well some people have trained their dogs & when I saw the same dogs it was laughable. I guess the problem is that others may read what you write, try & copy that & the risk of failure is high.

K9: There are other considerations but this one is important to me, many people will watch their puppy play, jump on them & so on. When the pup turns into an adult, running off to play, not coming when called & knocking over the owner when jumping on them often means the dog will get punished, in the dogs eyes it is being punished for simply getting bigger. The behaviours were all ok when he was small. This is not aimed at any poster here, but there will be people reading this that have done exactly that.

K9: Great points, this group of people have invested time & energy into controlled interactions & worked their way up to a comfortable & largely predictable social group. Seeing their dogs play from afar may lead one to believe that it is a free for all, & unleash their dog to play also. Well it wasn't free for the group, they put in all the work & an unwelcome addition to that group could upset or destroy the pack dynamics they have worked so hard to maintain. It isn't as simple as loving to watch a dog play.

K9: & that's fine, but crediting dogs with decision making skills can lead to disaster. K9: True, but these skills are learned through a trial & error system, its the error part I am concerned about. K9: Incorrect, only dogs with dog experience have reading skills, not every dog. For example, lets say I get a young dog that's 12 months old, never seen an unknown dog before, you think it will posses skills to read other dogs? No chance. K9: Iagree with all this but the path to get where you are is somewhat dangerous & not the easy to replicate for your average person as it is not a neccessity I rate the risk too high for my clients & I. K9: So your experience is what I try & avoid. K9: I wouldn't for a second try & convince you that my programs are good for you, I already have hundreds of people on them now & thousands in the past. Undrstand that I am looking at things from a much greater perspective than you, I am looking at many thousands of dogs over 20 plus years of doing this vs you looking at your own dog pack. So I try & give people the best chance of success based on my experience. Clients have the choice to take from me what they wish, but when we do puppy programs & people opt for high positive value situations with other dogs, in future lessons they always ask how to train a better recall on their dog that wont come back anymore when playing with other dogs.

K9: I don't go to off leash parks, but if I did I would not turn up & unleash my dog & hope for the best. K9: Then your experience is rare, many will tell you that, over a number of visits, dog packs can occur & when a new dog tries to join in, pack fights can break out. K9: But you cant control the other dogs, so no way of gaining balance with them... K9: why should they? K9: or get attacked or learn they can ignore the owner etc etc K9: thats right, & he knows that not every dog will be his friend how? K9: Maturity doesn't train dogs though, training does. If he is allowed to re enforce not recalling, no amount of maturity will correct that. Also when you dont do any testing, your simply guessing when it comes to what degree of compliance you will have. As I mentioned last time, everyone makes a choice for their own dogs, I have made mine based on the amount of people I see that fall into trouble allowing all manner of dog play.

K9: Ok sorry, take away tug & ball & you dont have 10 000 ways, you have 9998 ways. K9: In many cases the drive for other dogs increase to a point that meetings are calm & even any longer, the dog with the high value for other dogs bolts up to strange dogs & can get attacked for it. K9: I dont think you have to understand them, Im neutral, dont like it, dont dislike it. K9: If he comes away then I guess you have nice balance, I think in the last thread though we discussed that there are things he wont come for? Maybe that's improved. I would also say that if I wanted to exercise my dog off leash & your dog just wanted to come up & play, I would not be as happy as you would be about it. Some people just dont like your dog coming up all the time. Specially of they are trying to rehab maybe some aggression in their dog.

K9: yep of course, just send us an email & we can give you some options. [email protected]

K9: The Innotek BC200 is an automatic collar that detects barking & adjusts the correction level based on the dogs barking & raises the correction level when the dog doesn't stop barking. The idea isn't bad but the same collar also has written into the software that it will stop correcting the dog under certain circumstances & I have found those circumstances appeared to often to promote those collars. The BC200's predecessor the BC100 was a manual set bark collar much like the YS300 we have & it was a better unit IMO but both BC100 & BC200 reliability hasnt been great. They no longer sell the BC100 anyway. We have under test a new Model from Tri Tronics that so far is going very well. have more testing to do though but at the moment the YS300 from Dogtra is the best on the market.

K9: I met a guy once that said he stole ladies handbags because the running away was good exercise.. There are 10 000 ways to exercise your dog without the need for dog to dog play... K9: Thanks for the kind words, if your aiming at that, in my opinion that is a good direction, but I don't achieve that with corrections, you will most likely end up associating a negative value to other dogs & this may manifest in fear aggression. You have to have a strategy that will have the dog come to the conclusion that other dogs just aren't that interesting. This usually is best achieved by the dog in self discovery mode, not through avoidance training. If the dog however already has a value to other dogs that is not desirable, & that value is a positive value, then a program that uses corrections may be the way to go, but not just correcting the dog when it looks at another dog. That isnt so much a program as it is just a correction.

K9: What the correct method of socialisation is for someone's dog is not as simple as 123. I wrote a couple of treads here that cover what I believe works best with the least amount of risk. Thread 1 Socialisation & Neutralisation Thread 2 Puppy Socialisation I don't agree with delivering severe corrections under any circumstances during socialisation but I don't think having dogs play with other dogs has any benefit.

You havent met my dog Actually I was really impressed with her reaction the first time I tried it. She's obviously not as dumb as she looks - just incredibly spoilt by us because she was sick as a puppy and is still being fed 5 times a day. K9: No such thing as too much drive in my book...

K9: Say your dog is 1m long, you get a piece 2m x 2m & tie him i the middle of it, so he is standing on the board, he cant walk away as his own weight holds the board down.

K9: You can even use a large piece of ply wood, place the dog on top of the ply & tie the dog to the ply, they cant move..

K9: If your dog has a lot of food drive, you may end up with a way above normal dog...

K9: Yep it is pretty important that you don't withhold the food in any way, the tie out must do that or you wont get the mind set you need from the dog. Tie out the dog, go make the food, place it in a place where the dog isnt going into drive peak, stand back behind the dog quietly & wait for the dog to calm itself.. Then mark, untie & release...

K9: The TOT is a great foundation program, in many cases it will extinguish the aggression a feeding time as a prodedure gets put in place. Begin training all dogs in the program, all in separate areas or separate times in the same area. When they are all trained to the level where they are off leash & obeying commands, put all three on tie outs & long lines. Then bring out the food bowls & begin the TOT. When you release them hold the long line of the main aggressor & see where your at in terms of aggression. The extra leadership gained in the TOT will have many benefits also.

K9: Thanks for the kind words Amanda, some dogs need simply be shown some rules & boundaries & they fall right into place, I am delighted that your Staffy is going so well. Well done for implementing it so well too!