Steve K9Pro

K9: I will have recent client videos but would have to ask permission to post those, I have some of my dogs but they are on tape lol... When I started e collar work digital media lets just say wasn't perfected. When I say you need to see it in the dogs, I mean put a collar on dogs, set levels, train dogs, not everything will always be as it seems on video. K9: Research isn't one dog though, always remember that. K9: It is the attention getter, the attention stays with you until the move is complete. K9: Keep in mind to that, when I demonstrate methods in my workshops, they may not be the exact way I train, what I demonstrate also takes into consideration that people will interpret results differently. I also only run workshops for learners with untrained dogs, so what people will see is what they will get with their own dog.

K9: Then I am not sure why you posted it & stated "i think this vid refutes that lowering of drive definitely/ always occurs when using the stim after the command. I am still looking for more." I was responding to that comment as were talking about training with the e collar reducing drive not finished products weren't we? K9: I have many hours video, cant see how that can help? I can also give you links to loads of people that are training in drive with me, the work in a lot of these videos looks much like what you linked us too, but doesn't prove or disprove what I said. The point being is that, you posted a video to prove somewhat that drive can be maintained, I simply responded to that. I will agree that drive can be regained in many cases but often is lost through avoidance training. K9: Ok & you may not where others may. This conversation would now go into your ability to read & understand drive reversal/reduction etc, nothing really to do with the question though & probably not productive. The method you are describing compels the dog to comply, the reason has to be that it is a correction, a negative stimulus that reduces the likeliness of the behaviour that was happening just preceding the correction. This means that it is a correction, & you agree corrections reduce drive. Can drive be regained? sure in most cases. K9: because the behaviour that precedes the stim can be different each time. K9: Then why would it work? I know that you cant see the difference, that doesn't make it not true though. K9: The difference is you are asking the dog to do something, the dog fails to comply for any amount of reasons, you apply the stim (the dog see's this as aversive or it would have no effect). The dog is not able to pair this correction with anything twice. Unlike when you stim first, this gains the dogs attention, you give the command & the dog is already within your control & you have its attention, you can guide & teach a new behaviour through the dogs self experimentation. EG: stim command drop, the dog can try a load of behaviours but when it achieves the drop position, the stim turning off marks the position the dog is now in is what buys the reward (reward = stim off) As I have said, both work, no disputing that. But I use the collar as a teaching tool not a replacement for a check chain,I also use them a communication tool, the stim cues the dog that a reward is available, the dog knows I give commands in these circumstances that helps the dog achieve the reward & switch off the stim. I used to use them as you do but, I found through research & testing that the way I use now works better. If you try it, take all things into consideration, you may too? Or you may not. Doesn't really matter to me but if you really want to know, hearing my point of view, comparing it to others wont help, you will fall to the side of the best explanation perhaps, when really you need to see the results in the dog/s not the forum.

K9: Nice video but this work is trained in prey drive, have trained many dogs to this level & not needed an e collar. Note the prey item under his left arm, that is what the dog is heeling for, not in avoidance of an e collar stim (in this video). You will see at the 12 second mark Bart adjusts the tug to gain slightly higher focus, he didnt tap on the e collar (that the dog isnt wearing btw). The work is very good, there is no getting away from that, a good example of training in drive not e collar training. As for refuting whether the stim after the command reduces drive, I would just like to remind you that you asked the questions & I am answering them from my experience. As to whether it does refute what I said, here are some things that will govern the results you see. 1. The dog in this video has a very high amount of prey drive, how much did it have before the e collar was used? Got video of that or any way to measure the level of drive before or after, I woukd suggest no so an after video doesnt really prove much. 2. If the dog is trained in prey drive & polished with the collar, this can eliminate the loss of drive when the dog has very high prey drive, but when it doesn't your just left with reduced drive. 3. The dog in the video doesnt appear to be wearing an e collar nor is it lacking in drive. Just one other way to create this is to create a collar smart dog, plenty of drive collar off, not as much collar on. This is probably not the case here, but it is one way that many trainers will lower drive to shape new moves, then whe they are right indicate to the dog the collar is off & drive pops back up. 4. It is known that, the purpose of corrections are to lower drive, that's the whole reason for no corrections in drive or motivational work unless absolutely necessary, so whilst this dog may not have lost drive overall or the dog regained drive or any other reason, corrections reduce drive. Thats a known fact. 5. When I made that command it means "generally", some dogs have so much drive, you would need a lightning bolt to reduce it, most though dont, and in my experience, those dogs when stimmed after the command lose drive. Show avoidance, overly submissive & nervy behaviours. The above five points are some of things I look for over many years of training to help guide me to better methods. I too started with the avpoidance method but switched & developed the method I use now around 6 or 7 years ago. I am not trying to get you to use my mtehod, I do very well with it & I find that I can train people in this method very easily meaning less mistakes / stress on the dog.

K9: Agree 100% Erny, the dogs gain confidence as there is the absence of correction in the first step. When any type of avoidance training is used, command - correction etc, the dog seems to be always second guessing as to whether the correction is looming. I have come to the conclusion this is because when the dog is asked to come, & it refuses the first time, it recieves a correction. The next time it is called to come, it looks at another dog (for example) & is corrected. The next time the dog wants to go sniff something interesting, is called to come & then is corrected again. The correction is not being paired ideally with not coming as much as it is being applied to several different distractions. Of course avoidance training works & has for years, but I believe that whe we use the stim first, it highlights the right move not the wrong move. The stim can be applied throigh several distractions but turned off only when the right resppnse has been offered (usually with giudance from the handler).

K9: Yep thats correct, the training can be self discovery fo0r the dog t achieve success through guided movements when the stim is applied. K9: With the stim being switched on first, then you have the diog attention, then you give a command & help the dog shape the movment & then the stim turns off. This means the dog completing the correct movement is marked at the time of success, just like in clicker training. I know of some trainers whom have take the next step & press the collar stim, & at the removal supply a food treat, to replicxate their prevous clicker training.

K9: Yep of course, happy to answer anything I can. K9: I would happy to show you some time that it would be possible, for us both, the fact that I use the level that the dog can just perceive means that no harm will come from poor timing or poor association. Any time that we are going to test or try anything new, it will need to be tried on a dog at some time to get accurate assessment. Can be your own dog if need be. K9: Well, first, the ability to feel will not change based on the command unless the command changes the dogs level of drive. Secondly, applying the stim before, then giving the command, then guide the dog to success then turn off the collar means a longer stim that has a greater effect at a lower level than a shorter stim at the same level. The reason that I feel that the stim after the command needs a higer level is the duration of the stim is shorter & the stim needs to compel the dog to comply. It is simple avoidance training which is basically adding a correction for not complying with the known command. No different than replace a jerk on teh check chain with an e collar stim. This of course works but when I find that a higher level (than mine) needs to be used, some dogs show strong avoidance to the stimulation making learning slower & more difficult. It also seems to take some (un neccessary) time with some dogs to over come the fear. When training others to use the collar you have to make sure their timing is more accurate with avoidance training than with my method. Timing in my method isnt as important. I beleive the stim at a lower level over a greater time also gives the dog a chance to think through the excercise more clerarly & comply withpout avoidance (fear). Another added benefit is that when yo aply the stim, it holds the dogs temperament & a dog that is moving on with training knows that a command will be coming. Some dogs we dont wean off the collar for certain reasons, for example, a dog running away from you in pursuit of someone will respond to a heard command, if there is background noise, head wind etc the dog may not hear the command this cannot comply, the stim will signla the dog that a command is coming. Others we have a procedue that is started before training starts & progresses through (too many steps to mention here) until the dog is compliant without the collar.

K9: I guess the word "high" is a relative term, the low level I use doesnt have an effect when used after the command. K9: What happens when you dont have the collar on & give a command then don't stim? same thing, you can wean the dog off the collar. K9: No of course not the dog would then not be trained but just cuing off the e collar. K9: I guess I would put it this way, if your asking questions it would seem that using the collar my way isnt within your experience, so having a preference is based on you prefer the only way you know? Until you have been through both methods on many dogs, not sure you will be able to make a good judgement. It inst unlike saying I dont like e collars, never used one, just dont like them...

K9: On most occasions, the stim applied after the command needs to be applied at a considerably higher level than if it is applied before the command. The reason is that the duration of the stim when applied after is much shorter, giving the dog less time to think. The higher levels can often startle a dog & or the dog can negativity pair the stimulation (correction) with the command when the command comes first. Applying the stim first can be applied at the level the dog can just percieve, not the level that generates a reaction in the dog, can mean that just about any dog can be trained effectively with the method. Also the stim being applied at a lower level doesnt reduce / extinguish drive to the level that higher levels often do. Another benefit is that the stim being applied will transgress into a communication pre emption, the dog knows after feeling the stim that a command is coming. This is technically known as a "behavioural interuptor". Which can turn a dog off a chase with very low levels of stim. Kavik I feel that you need some one on one training (which I think I remember offering you free) so that you could learn more effectivley on how to use the collar. Trainers who hang up a tool when it doesnt work for them the very first time will end up with a lot of tools hanging. I have had hundreds of novices learn to use a collar in this method & gain easy success without problems.

K9: Other than the import restrictions, any device imported must be processed to have "C tick" compliance. This must be done in Australia & cant be done overseas. Without the compliance the fine for possessing these devices is huge from what I am told. All of ours are of course are fully compliant.

K9: Yep sure is, you can also if need be add a "no reward marker" which is like uh uh to indicate that getting up isnt the right move.

K9: Debarking is the last option really, all surgery carries risk, sometimes the tissue removed grows back & other times the sound they make after debarking is worse than the barking. I have also consulted with people who have debarked their dogs as they developed behaviour problems later on, & of course there are success cases for debarking too. There are also laws governing debarking that differ from state to state, so they must be considered also. You should know the risks before proceeding.

K9: Your welcome, food refusal isnt hard to teach but it has it good & bad points..

K9: Thanks for the kind words. I've got a couple of questions with the technique: I started doing TOT but I did it wrong, did distance before time so I'm intending to start all over again from tonight and do it properly. I have read all 20 pages and your main post again so I should be right for tonight. I still have these questions though: K9: Not normally, no. Some dogs that have high values for other dogs etc may take a little longer but they all get it soon enough. K9: yep, you should be able to give the sit command, go inside & make the food after a period f time, or many prefer to walk out with the food after the foundation if the program is trained, & then give the sit command, place the food & begin other exercises. K9: Yes when he looks, then command sit, then mark yes again when he sits. K9: No, when he sits it is marked with yes, along the way of the sit it is sometimes helpful to mention yes throughout the stay. At the end of the time you release with OK! K9: Do give the command or the dog will just experiment. The eye contact we don't call for because I want to make sure the dog is looking for an answer in the first step & asking the alpha. K9: It sounds like the food is to close overstimulating him yes, I would move it further away to start with. K9: No, the dog will only be more eager to eat if A. the dog has a high food drive & or B. the dog is left hungry. K9: I think any dog not trained in food refusal will go for the bone depending on how threatening or rewarding the dog see's the person as. But, the TOT will not change this negatively, in many cases dogs learn to wait for the releae command to eat, meaning unless the intruder says ok, they don't eat.

K9: lol I am not pissed off, lol you can still type.... Maybe I am just harder to please than a wild Hare?

K9: whilst that is true (& amazing), the more amazing side is that we didn't use any over the top drive trigger, he just calmly stares at Shell & it is clear in his eyes he knows nothing will happen. He is totally relieved of duty & that is a very nice thing to see in a dogs eyes, never mind one that was aggressive previously, THAT is just stunning.

K9: I didn't question you, I said your wrong, quite a difference. Spend some time with more than a couple of dogs & it will be blatantly obvious.

K9: Caught you out a few times. Never even met me, hardly a fair call. K9: Thats basically treating all handlers the same though? Just the flip side of the coin but the disadvantage is the owner not the dog. I have had a ton of people leave trainers like that to come & get help as they haven't been able to become "attractive" enough. K9: Natural is form a pack, keeps others out of it if these were wild dogs. K9: It was never meant to be a thread over winning prizes, I am not a debater, I am a trainer, in my field I don't take second prize. K9: Heart over head decision perhaps, doesn't matter to me, but I have said that a number of times. K9: Hey I have always said, having your dog play with other dogs gets you off the hook, means your almost commitment free, but that's not why I have dogs, I actually like them wit me as often as possible. K9: No matter how you seemingly try & twist around what is being said, you still don't get your point accross. Thre is no les fun with me, fun comes from me, but if peope dont want to spend time with their dog, they now have two options, take it so somene else or their dog can play with it for you or just dont get a dog. This isnt about conditioning dogs to a recall or not, its about not creating problems you have to fix later on. K9: Above you call on whats natural, but you dont susbribe to pack theory, I guess it doesnt go along with your other theories. K9: It is called your job as the Alpha. K9: Perhaps slide the keyboard in front of Penny, she appears to be the Alpha here. Either her or the wild Hare perhaps...

K9: me either, his pic is still up here... Hall of famer! K9: It is simple balanced distraction training. So we take into consideration what your dog is distracted by, supply that in a controllable fashion & rebalance the temperament.

K9: Just keep in mind guys, this is not the program I give my clients, this is just a discussion on the subject. Reading it here is far from the information needed to get it right.

K9: No, once the value has been set it can only be changed with training not socialisation. It can be undone so not all is lost.

K9: Lack of interaction = lack of socialisation learning = ignorance = fear in dogs, so no, plenty of interaction, but coming out your way. Another example is cats, they can be set as a relaxed part of the pack or a prey item... All depends on the interaction yes? K9: aha, now I know who your are lol.. With Monsters prey training, neutralising him would have made him even better!

K9: sure, but they meet all types, but are prevented through control from engaging in high end play, they can go for walks with other dogs etc, hang with other dogs, just no over the top stuff.

My 'neutralised' dog was exposed to heaps of other puppies and dogs as a puppy and adolescent and regular exposure continues to this day. As a puppy and adolescent, she was allowed to play in a controlled manner with other puppies and "safe" older dogs occasionally. More often, when there were other puppies or dogs around, I would engage her in games and training with food rewards and cuddles. From an early age, (6 - 7 weeks) I could call her away from playing with others and get her to interact with me and this became a learned behaviour. I made sure she was comfortable in the presence of other dogs, but I intentionally devalued the presence of dogs. So she became accustom to focusing on me, my food and my toys rather than the dogs around her. As an adult dog, occasionally I do give her permission to greet another dog, but only when I know the owner and the dog and am certain the other dog will be socially receptive. So yes, I think she is reasonable fluent in dog speak, or at least as fluent as I want her to be. She's never shown any fear or aggression. She has seen fearful and aggressive dogs in training classes so I think she can recognise those kind of body postures and vibes. But she's never been allowed to interact with that kind of dog, and we only get as close as the distance where she doesn't feel the need to defend herself. I think it does go back to what kind of outcome you want. If I wanted a dog to go to the dog park with, I would have pushed her into a puppy free for all on a regular basis and left it at that. What I conditioned for and now have is a dog who is perfectly comfortable with other dogs around, but finds interacting with me much more engaging. K9: pretty much sums it up.

K9: I think Q was hinting at the dog bouncing around the back of a van unsecured, but as for transporting with other dogs, no problems. Leash them up, on your map (size dependant). K9: sure you can, like you have dogs with different levels of drive for food, a toy or people.

K9: yep & therefore a dog that plays with others, develops a high value for it is then unbalanced in the pack. BTW You mention dog being transported in a back of a van without you being there, surely common sense would dictate separate crates, you wouldn't put your child in a car without a harness, same applies for dogs. K9: Yep I think them all bouncing around the back of the van is a pretty poor looking picture but I have had quite a few dogs in the back of my truck, all leashed up with no issues at all, my dogs, others dogs, all no problem. I have also had my dogs out with 30 working dogs all off leash & doing their jobs, the dogs bumped into each other, all dove into a bush scenting, were rewarded with tugs, various prey items & food & then laid down whilst we (the humans) had something to eat. Not a problem the whole day. If a stern look was exchanged by one dog to another, there would have been an "eh! get back to work" & no more would be heard or seen of it. When you go out with a group of working dogs, there just isn't the time to be sorting out squabbles.