Steve K9Pro

K9: I haven't had time to look at the studies, but, in our own tests cold spray collars return around 70% success rate in the long term. Static pulse about 99% successful. Also keep in mind that Citronella is a poison, so even if it did work, it should not be used on an animal. I have witnessed some severe skin reactions to citronella. The Material Safety Data Sheet on Citronella. SECTION VI - HEALTH HAZARD DATA PRIMARY ROUTES OF ENTRY: PRODUCT CAN ENTER VIA INHALATION, INGESTION, OR SKIN CONTACT. EFFECTS OF ACUTE OVEREXPOSURE EYES - MAY CAUSE IRRITATION SKIN - PROLONGED CONTACT MAY CAUSE DERMATITIS BREATHING- VAPORS MAY IRRITATE SWALLOWING- MAY CAUSE STOMACH IRRITATION HEALTH HAZARDS - LIQUID MAY IRRITATE SKIN AND EYES EMERGENCY AND FIRST AID PROCEDURES IF ON SKIN - WASH WITH SOAP AND WATER IF IN EYES - FLUSH WITH WATER, LIFTING UPPER AND LOWER LIDS OCCASIONALLY. IF SWALLOWED - RINSE MOUTH WITH WATER; SEEK MEDICAL ADVICE IF INHALED - REMOVE TO FRESH AIR

K9: Looking at the pics I wanted to add something that people may not think of, I have a few clients like Shell that come to me with a very aggressive dog, they not only have regressed the aggression but are now trialling their dogs. To get a dog past something like Fear aggression & then be able to add motivation & train for competition amongst a field of strange dogs takes real dedication & a dog that is pure gold. It is very hard to put into words how proud I am of these dogs & their people.

K9: The multiple popping I am speaking of was quite high to increase adrenalin through pain, dogs can work in many ways quite an amazing animal really. K9: There are so many ways to utilise drive that you (well I) just never stop learning better ways to get things working. K9: I ran a workshop about 5 years ago, there were 42 attendees, all of the compete with their dogs. I asked for a show of hands who had ever used an e collar, 0/42. By the end of that day, 31/42 approached me saying the did use them but didn't like to say they did in public. I still work with many top triallers who use e collars, but just say they dont, thats not saying the ones that you know Ness are in those same people, just my experience is that what people say isnt always what they do.

K9: yes but the important difference is that I created the program & its far from only my opinion. K9: I am only replying to you, the results aren't in my own mind, I think they are public record now. Were talking dog training not the dictionary meaning of force.

K9: I am very humbled by the way you have posted about how I helped you with Zero, the truth is though that Shell rehabilitated Zero & not me, she carried out every step I gave her with nothing sort of exact precision & dedication making sure every step was done, even the hard ones. I got regular updates allowing me to tune the program with Zero's improvement, Shell never stopped until she made sure Zero was 100%. In an aggression workshop I ran maybe 12 weeks? after we started with Zero, who was a Red Zone dog, people kept asking me why he was there? Dogs barked, growled & lunged at him & all he did was look at Shell with eyes of complete trust to see what she would have liked him to do. All my research & experience would be nothing without owners who do not give up. I am blessed with many, many fantastic clients who never give up. *************************************************** Just on CM, I watch the show at times, I will watch anything with dogs & did attend his seminar here in Sydney. Many people do knock his techniques & I woukd suggest that he has no formal training (once you have had formal training you can see that), but he is instinctual & it is clear that he does love animals & wants to help as many as possible. It is true that he shuts dogs down, but many dogs do need to be shut down in some aspects so he can be right on the money with some of his ideas. It would be fantastic if every dog I saw, I just stroked its head & it went away fixed, but in reality, many of the vets and trainers that refer clients to me feel that I am brought some of the worst dogs there are & we do get some great results, Zero being just one of those. To me these days, not much looks bad or not fixable because I am drawing on a daily average of I guess the worst there is to just plain out of control... lol..

K9: Not again, many years has past since I was a target... You said "We're all to frightened these days of making our dogs do anything or we feel like we're being mean but how will they learn?" K9: I can as I designed the program & the force that people refer to in dog training is physical force. In the TOT, there is no physical force only a range of options placed before the dog in which choosing the right one will release the reward. K9: You can see it that way but the important factor is that the dogs don't, physical force installing pain creates avoidance in dogs, I only use food drive that transgresses into pack drive in the TOT, not avoidance therefore the dogs dont suffer by the drive flattening aversions of physical force. K9: Your welcome to your opinion, even though its wrong. K9: Nope, that's called restraint. Force is something that is applied when were talking dog training.

I would suspect that most people who read the training Forums would have seen that link. However, I suspect that most hadn't seen the link I posted. I have to say I really wonder about the self promotion that goes on in this forum. From the Forum rules: K9: Still stinging I see Corvus over the nuetralisation thread lol...

K9: Who is supplying the force? Not me? If the dog pulls on the leash it is by its own choice & pull on the leash will not buy the food, so it actually teaches that force disables rewards. N: K9: No, it isnt, it is just unable to get to the food. As the tie out is attached before the trigger of food, the handler isnt seen as the reward remover. The dog is free to whine, jump, sit drop or stay, but, the only behaviour that will have me help the dog hain the reward is eye contact by the dogs own choice. K9: No the dog is free to ignore me, not look, it just cant have the food in this case, doesnt bother me. There is no force but a positive advantage to give eye contact back to me. K9: I have never agreed to being mean to a dog to get training done, though I am certain that you are aware that I am far from frightened to give corrections. My TOT program really engages the dogs respect, by teaching the dog that its advantage lays by asking the Alpha what to do. There is no force applied to the dog from the handler at any time in the TOT.

K9: If it was self promotion I would have linked to the TOT on my web site, the copy of the TOT is put here to help people, read the thread to see just how many it helps. K9: As I said, I could have posted my own link. K9: with 3600 posts I hardly think I joined just to self promote.

K9: After reading the thread I just replied to set things straight where I thought they weren't. Your posts about not being able to use e collars & training in drive were incorrect. K9: Whilst you doubt it, I know it. K9: well the whole post just below doesn't read that way. K9: At times with some dogs marking early creates the exact problem Sieta has, so it is always different strokes based on the actual dog & actual problem. K9: Ivan also uses prong collars... It used to be quite common for the trainer to multiple pop a prong collar to build intensity or drive, the tool is but a tool, they can be used to communicate, correct, punish, add consequence or devalue certain behaviours or rewards, ruling them out in fear of losing drive means you my not have full grasp of the way tools can be used & may be missing some crucial knowledge on dog training.

K9: Here is another link to Leadership without force...

K9: Then I know what's wrong, the technique your using will give you results for a short time only & it usually will raise other weak areas of training. I will send you the fix via email

K9: I agree, may help with many things but not needed for this problem I don't think. ************************************************************ ******** K9: As I said before, many triallers do use e collars, correction collars etc, just not so many of them talk about it openly. There are many drive problems that can be greatly assisted with the use of the e collar, a possessive monster of a dog that is becoming rank & will not give up the tug can be greatly improved by the use if the stim for one scenario. A dog that has had drive rewards of perhaps chasing another animal can have those particular drive rewards de valued by the use of the e collar, & his can also raise the value for the desired prey itme by displaying the contrast. These are two common examples but they dont apply to Seita but worth mentioning also.

K9: In fact your probably right, but if the problem was that simple this girl would have sorted it, her dog is very good. K9: Just because they are not broadcasting it doesn't mean it isnt true. K9: As is your right to that opinion, but there are many 200 dogs out there that are using e collars. The NRM is not a correction but a communication tool that helps guide the dog. NRMS used the right way increase drive in many cases. K9: Very much depends on the ay that it is used, there are no breeds that an e collar cant be used on. K9: I would pay special attention t how the NRM is issued, many people just call a verbal correction a NO reward Marker, when in fact it isnt. K9: corect it will train the dog to crouch. K9: This often does work, but in this dogs case where the reward is remote it often creates the crouching problem.

K9: Not always, depends on many variables but loosing drive doesn't go hand in hand with using an e collar, unless you want it to. K9: You absolutely can, done it guzillions of times. K9: Advantage is that you can use stim for longer period of time. K9: I do find that people say the word "drive" and being too unspecific, big corrections increase drive, that's drive is avoidance... K9: Your not trying to stop something so I wouldn't go for the correction just yet. I haven't seen your dog in a while but I would guess it looks something like. Your heeling along & she maintains eye contact, you stop & she increases focus & crouches to an almost sit & as time passes, her bum slowly touches the ground. Does it look like that?

K9: Are you still using the remote reward I have taught you? If so you will need to modify this slightly. Te dogs can think of a sit as a delay in reward so it needs to be modified. Shoot my an email & I will tell you how. I will also add some comments to answer some thoughts that others have added next.

K9: I agree, you may have a hard pup or just a high drive pup that is learning the wrong way to deal with you, for a start , begin the Triangle of temptation so the pup knows that energy & noise wont buy success, this may be all you need or it may not. I would back off the corrections until you see a pro, the pup will not know how to process the negative information at that level of drive...

K9: First step is to get an accurate diagnosis, then a strategy or program can be written to reduce focus on triggers if the problem is SA. If not a regime will be created to teach the dog that whining or barking will not solve the problem. Yes the 500 is fully adjustable. In some cases we trade old collars for upgrades also. Him behaving this way when he thinks your at home suggests to me that it is not SA, rather him controlling the situation or trying to, but, there are a thousand more questions & tests I would carry out before ticking any boxes & beginning in any direction. My behavioural work always starts with getting the diagnosis 100% correct, then when I write up a program we retain the best results. Shoot me an email & will be able to help you hopefully. [email protected]

K9: The BC50 & BC200 (both Innotek collars) are self adjusting, they also have built into their software to switch off if the dog doesn't respond to the corrections, some dogs learn this. The manual adjusted collars are better IMO. You can also adjust the BC50 levels sort of, you run the collar across your bench top & it will deliver corrections, when you keep rubbing it, the collar will auto adjust up levels, when you get it to a higher level, fit the collar to the dog. Using a higher level on an accomplished barker can stop the problem, but I too recommend more investigation into the cause. If you email me I have a few recommendations in Vic.

K9: I guess that no one was there to see the state of mind of Chopper, so he could have been tearing at that crate, ears up tail wagging & making a good Ol game of it or, he could have worked himself into a state of high anxiety & was frantically trying to break out of the crate? It would be one of those two, how do we progress? The loose stool could be stress related or something he ate, this breed though is proned to suffer from Separation Anxiety. No one knows, but the therapy for each is completely different. As know one knows, it is anyone's guess. If I guess, I usually guess in the direction of motivation, rather than pressure, locking him in the crate assuming that his state of mind is positive is flooding. In my opinion flooding is a risky direction to go even when you know what is wrong with the dog, too risky when you don't know what is wrong & your guessing. I feel the best direction would be to set up a video camera & tape him in the crate, have that assessed by a behaviourist, this is a behaviour issue, not a training issue. If he is suffering anxiety, then some of the suggestions here, possibly coupled with medication & desensitising may be required. I personally don't like muzzles on dogs when no supervision is available. Here is an article that isn't about a tantrum throwing or aggressive dog, it is about a dog suffering SA. read it here Finally, lets keep in mind the ideal of the crate, it is not an area of punishment, rather should be trained a s good place satisfying the den mentality of a dog. I think that positive place may have been lost here. Good luck.

K9: Its pretty hard to say what is causing the pack disruption but, by you stating / allowing / treating Daisy as top dog, when in fact the pack order will change often in a day depending on the resource at the time, could be adding to the problem. Many people who highlight the top dog actually are allowing acts of dominance as it all flies under the top dog banner, & sometimes this is causing the problems. K9: short answer is "do anything you have to that will avoid fights, I would also consider seeing a behaviourist to have your pack assessed.

K9: another way to look at it is, a four level collar jumps 25% every time you go up a level, a ten level would be 10% & a 100 level would be 1%. Think of the lowest level on each collar as the same & the highest level on each the same, important difference is the amount of steps. Some dogs on say an Innotek 9 level collar cant feel one but level two is too high for them, using my just perceivable level of stim, so that collar has to be modified or replaced.

K9: Low stim training is accepted but not practised by many, many still use the higher end of the scales. Some things such as food refusal & snake proofing are still trained by many on the highest level of stim they can find. Another reason is that all dogs feel the stim at different levels, so a variabnce is needed. I use the dogtra because the models we recommend have 127 levels. I am not interested in higher levels, just the fact that each level has less than 1% change of stim level at the collar, meaning I can find the perfect level of stim for every dog. level one is so low, never met an animal that coulkd eve feel less than about 5.

K9: in all cases but a few the dog is weaned off the collar, meaning no stim will be needed once the dog is solid on each command under distraction, in my experience the dogs not weaned off comply anyway. K9: The weaning protocol removes the stim being needed or the collar being needed.