Steve K9Pro

If your dog stops barking because the can rattles, what will it do when the can can't rattle because your not there?

But that's what I thought the idea of conditioning was, whether through reinforcement or punishment. That the dog (or human or whatever creature) comes to associate the consequence with the action and therefore continues or discontinues the action based on the consequence.

We toilet train dogs to take themselves outside through dog doors to toilet outside whether we are home or not using positive reinforcement, does punishment work differently? (again genuine question, I want to understand).

You cannot eliminate yourself from the equation so when your not there the conditioning isn't either. Toilet training is creating a habit where the negativity is being around your own waste. Barking is a habit your trying to stop.

If your dog stops barking because the can rattles, what will it do when the can can't rattle because your not there?

If your dog hates going outside when it rains, does it stop going outside when it shines?

Eta it is also linked to you so will not deter barking when your not home

Of course shaking of the can is simple and cheap, also will be considered by the dog as punishment if it works. Punishment applied by the can shaker.

The dog does not need to injest citronella to cause harm, applying to the skin has been known to cause severe reactions

Citronella is a poison though. You also get what you pay for

For example, Sassy jumps up to greet people: her owners have tried pushing her down and kneeing her to knock her off balance when she jumps. This has not worked, in fact she now jumps from further away to avoid the knee. Sassy should be ignored if she jumps and only receive attention (including eye contact) when she has four paws on the ground. Only when she is standing or sitting should she be rewarded with attention and treats."

K9: Hmm, so, Sassy jumps to avoid the knee, this likely means that she is jumping with a high level of enthusiasm.

Now when she jumps we ignore her?

This will produce an extinction burst, just like the knee did.

How does one ignore a dog that is jumping on you with force and tearing your skin off with its nails?

hi k9pro

I started TOT with Digby this morning.

When he saw the food bowl he automatically sat.

The program says though that in a few days I should ask him to sit when I am standing beside him.

So what should I do? should I just tell him to sit before he sits, or should I give him a different command when I get to his right side (drop for example)?

K9: Just work from where you are, whether he sits or he doesn't, mark the eye contact and go from there

Hey K9,

So I am doing really well with Elysia and she's improved greatly. The only issue is that she still pulls ahead when she can and wont walk by my side? Can you suggest how I might be able to get her to walk at my side? She doesn't strain as much as just pull a little, and the liver treats don't seem to hold a high enough value to her when we're out in the "world" walking down the street. I walk her on the same 1 block section each day so she can get used to it but do you think its just that she's not used to being out on walks and wants to smell everything or is this something I can correct?

K9: Training the loose leash walk is something you can reinforce in the TOT but you really would be better teaching it and then proofing it under distraction. This is the point in which you should engage a trainer near you to help.

Hi K9,

Just wanted you to know that using the triangle method I've been able, in one day, to teach my friend's labrador to take treats without snapping them from my hand and have gotten her loose leash walking with me in less than half an hour. I will keep up the training of course, and spending the time to play with her and walk her (my friend is very ill and can't do much) is now easy and enjoyable for both Elysia and I!

Thanks!

(I've also managed to do it in front of my friend who now knows just how eager her girl is to please and be trained, hopefully in time, Elysia will be loose leash walking most of the time, and her owner will be able to take her on walks :D)

K9: Great work, hopefully your friend will be able to run the TOT as well

Place the food down and give her some time to build a little frustration, a minute or two? if she starts to get excited then encourage her with your voice, like "where is it?" or "want your dinner?" see how she goes

Joke: Of course the Steve having plenty of the email training clients, is nice little earning for him cutting out local trainer for the job.

K9: I guess the same can be said for the trainers that make DVDs then hey? People buy them all over the world and cut out local trainers?

I guess that you haven't noted the referrals page on my site with recommended trainers in every major city.

Joke: No trainer in the world having ability to properly work out behavior on the dog from email

K9: Except you of course who diagnoses just about every dog on here as fear aggressive and weak nerved, from as little as one post.

L: Don't know what your problem is mate!

K9: I would hazard a guess at passive aggressive tenancies with multiple personality disorder. Anyone who has this many log ins needs help.

Joke: The point I make here is said a thousand time before on this board too is true that you cant assess a dog properly on the email chat, there would not be a competence trainer in the world who say you can

K9: no where is this program designed to address behavioral problems, it is a program to train a dog to walk on a loose leash. It just so happens it and more support helped with Skyes reactivity.

Joke: If the Steve think is email training is better than trainer of his standard on the job for real hes pulling your leg, of course his email training is better than useless trainer on the job, but my point is on my opnion if asking what is best email training or training in person I say training in person is always best decisoin and email training is comnpromise.

K9: Some people send me video's taken under lights at 3aqm, not too many trainers are available at that hour of the person is a shift worker. Some people cant make the scheduled times trainers are available, some trainers are crap, some people have no trainers anywhere near them.

No where is it stated or do I feel that a trainer in person of the same ability as me is not as good as email, but then again, you know that from the emails we have exchanged when you were looking for help...

Joke: Dearest Skye I have seen you postings on the dog and behavior you telling us is high drive is not.

K9: This wouldnt be an internet diagnosis would it?

Joke: High drive is not going after other dogs is nonsense, your dog behavior for the email training is fear biter scared of other dogs is why she react.

K9: Another internet diagnosis...

Joke: Stable dogs of high drive dont care about other dogs

K9: if their drives are satisfied through other measures...

Joke: I hear many time a lady Kathy her name is best in WA for reactive dog, you ring her for advice first Skye, maybe she even better on the result training in person than the Steve email training is what I think of?

K9: lol so you know nothing of Kathy Koppelis Mcleod, but you would rather Skye go see her even though I am providing results? lol Funny. In fact the trainers that use methods you criticize all of the time would welcome Kathy. BTW I know Kathy and refer to her too.

But then again I also know you...

It is quite obvious you are on a mission here, like I told you on the other forum, everyone knows who you are and your million log ins, so drop the fake accent and either post as yourself of shut up.

K9: Of course if a dog has a high reward history with another prey item it may not tug either, nothing at all to do with nerves.

Does anyone know where I can order these from? So far I can only find collars with tips. Whereas, I just want to buy the tips for a collar I already have.

K9: Yep we have them!

J: Mr K9, my point is you ignoring the view of MJ to suit your prong collar argument,

K9: No I am not ignoring this at all, and as you can clearly see it is just not my argument. Do you think prong collars should be banned?

what MJ says is true and can happen is what I say.

K9: Although I note your English has improved greatly in this post since the last one ;) maybe you didn't read what I wrote or didn't understand it.

So I feel the 2/8 ratio is not common.

Finally, not saying it never ever happens, just saying it isn't par for the course when using a prong collar.

J: There is big difference between prong and flat collar to raise aggression on agitataion training,

K9: sorry if I missed it but, who other than you is talking about protection dogs or agitation training?

J: prong and ecollar is good tool for taking the dog to the fight and can happen with pet dog if someone with little experience just slap a prong on the wrong dog.

K9: Oh so your saying the that trainer that put the prong on the dog in MJs story put the prong collar on the wrong dog? I am pretty sure I said that, lots of times.

What you say argue with MJ says to the readers here the prong wont be lifting aggression the same can happen on a harness, I tell you now, if a dog go the handler on a harness he will go the handler harder on a prong which in my opinion is wrong tooling for handler aggression, is better on the Eds DD collar to taking the drive off the dog not ramping up with the prong yes?

K9: I didnt say that a prong collar wont raise aggression in some dogs, I said I am not having that reaction commonly, my clients are not having that reaction commonly, I put this down to the assessment I carry out on the dog and the method in which I use the collar and teach others to. So that said means the problem is not common to the tool if the tool is chosen based on the dogs temperament, the problem at hand and the skill of the handler.

Air blocking collars are designed to take drive out of a dog, so they have their place of course, like every other tool, but if you air block a fearful dog, it too can redirect aggression as the dog panics, correct?

MJ say he/she know of dog when fitting the prong caused handler aggression, yes this can happen and I seen many times this too same on ecollars and plenty people could be having pet dog like this is what MJ saying and in your position MR K9 where everyone stand by your word, you needing to acknowleging what MJ say not saying as I reading from you it wont happen, it can.

K9: Read what I wrote, I didnt say it CANT happen. I can avoid this problem of occurring in most if not all situations by assessing the dog and choosing the right tool for the dog. When that is done correctly, you will not get aggression increase.

If people choose to listen to what I say, its backed by the results they have seen.

If you know what you talking about in protection training, you swap flat agitation collar for the prong next time to lifting aggression to generate fighting drive in a good dog and tell me I am wrong please?

K9: Why would I do that Joe? I know the what the outcome would produce.

As I saying before, if the prong or ecollar shutting down the dog on the bite, you training the wrong dogs in protection, a good dog needing elevation in the fight otherwise he run away when you need him the most you see?

K9: now your making shit up and I dont mean your user name! Where did I ever say such a thing? lol

Hey whilst your reading this, there was a black shepherd that you linked us to a while ago, is that the sort of working dog that you wont use a prong collar on?

Just curious, what training courses do you run for Customs?

K9's written about the courses he's run for AQIS etc on his website before. http://www.k9pro.com.au/pages/AQIS-Training-Workshops-%252d-Handling-Dangerous-and-Aggressive-Dogs.html

AQIS is not CUSTOMS....... They are completely separate organisations.

He said that he runs training courses for Govern agencies, including Customs in his thread. I was curious to ask what courses for Customs he has run???

Cheers

K9: sorry I missed the question, last year I ran multiple drive workshops aimed at scent detection for AQIS, there were a number of Customs handlers in each of those courses, the link should be this one.

Yes as the tool and handlers go hand in hand. It is futile putting prong on the dog without the handler making it do it's job.

As you said trainers make mistakes, even experienced ones, and with the right dog this can dangerous for whatever the dog associates the correction with.

If the tug and the food mistakes resulted in 2 out 8 dogs becoming aggressive yes I would be very dubious. I have never seen that ratio applied to any other tool. The dog coming back at me with a harness on was 1 in many many many dogs, with factors that increased the liklihood of that happening that weren't present in the prong situations.

K9: I might like to see the criteria that was used to determine why prongs went on these dogs, even in hindsight it was clearly not the right call or was misused. The results tell us that.

Having that said, I dont disagree with anyone that would say that delivering a "insert correction collar here" to some dogs can produce aggression. The prong surely isn't a one size fits all fix.

I think from memory,you have seen me train with a prong MJ and I will hazard a guess to say that it didnt produce any aggression toward me.

I also haven't had a dog redirect onto me from a prong correction for a good 18 months maybe, and I can tell you that I A: work with a lot of aggressive dogs and B: work with a lot of prong collars. There are a heap of people here and on our facebook page that are telling of how I taught them to use a prong collar and they aren't being bitten.

So I feel the 2/8 ratio is not common.

Finally, not saying it never ever happens, just saying it isn't par for the course when using a prong collar.

C: But K9, surely in this discussion the tool should be the focus seeing as it is the tool that is controversial.

K9: I dont have a problem with that Corvus, what I am saying is that, there is no point in saying that the experiences MJ reported are limited to the prong collar.

I'm sure we can all agree that any tool can be misused by trainers and that is the very thing that colours people's opinions of them. But if it can be said of any tool then how can it be used as an argument for or against any tool?

K9: I guess it can be used as an argument when they are only talking about banning one tool and the reasons they give aren't limited to said tool. For example, someone says that they think the prong should be banned because it supplies an aversive. If it is one of many tools that supply aversive s, why is it being singled out?

The issue in my mind is not whether it can be misused but its potential for harm when it is. By harm I mean physical and emotional.

K9: I agree, but both of those harms can be caused by many things too, even just cruel handlers, inconsistent rewards.

The way it is spoken about you would think it was either a torture device or made of cotton candy.

K9: Agreed, by people who sit on either side of the fence, it isn't either really.

Why can't we just have a rational dialogue about it where we don't have to take sides? It appears I've already been categorised as anti-prong by virtue of the fact that everyone knows I like my clickers and counter-conditioning. As it happens, I have been on the fence about prongs for years because no one has ever given me a simple list of pros and cons. I have never seen a rational weighing of the pros and cons. Only marketing.

K9: Box cutters can be used to cut boxes or take over aircraft, we know this, so the potential for harm in those is great. The prong isn't as wide spread as that, but like everything, including a simple box cutter, it can be missused.

This isn't something the prong promotes, nor is it limited to the prong collar, so I don't think it should be a reason to ban.

There are many ways the handler can use the prong, when Joek said if you give a prong correction... we would need to look at what a correction is in his mind and compare that to mine. What is the state of mind the handler must be in when they pull the leash, how is the timing, what level of intensity is the correction delivered at.

Now go back to the start and change the word prong to "insert other tool" and the same applies in his correction schedule. I may put said tool on same dog and not get the same reaction.

So to me it is more about: -

Is the tool useful to help me help people with their dogs? if the answer is yes then I will use it.

Does the tool cause harm no matter how you use it? if yes then I wont use it.

Just about every other argument that seems to pop up is in relation to trainer error or hearsay, things such as: -

*Sharpening prongs, I have heard this so much but in all my time never ever saw a sharpened prong collar

*Redirected aggression, this is not happening to me and I use prongs, why?

*They cause injuries, never have I come across any proof of these injuries, many chiro's prefer the prong

*You can't use them on soft dogs, I have and the results have been amazing, not in my head but in front of a crowd of people in seminars

*They are cruel, No they are just metal, some people are cruel and stupid.

I could go in but have work to do but I will say, many times people will bring me an aggressive dog for rehab, I may choose the prong collar to teach the dog how to walk on a loose leash and thus develop an impulse control foundation. I do not ever advise people to correct the dog for being aggressive. I don't believe this is the fastest way forward.

People will say, "cant you teach a dog to walk on a loose leash without a prong". Obviously I can, but for me to coach the owner on this and get it reliable may take say 10 hours. Which is fine if all they were looking for is a loose leash walk, but walking on a loose leash is a tiny part of the rehab program and if we just focus on that for 5 weeks, the time spent could have been used on desensitization and then counter conditioning.

In under ten minutes most times I produce a dog that walks for the owner happy and receiving rewards and not pulling the owner, we can then use the time right after that to start with aggression work.

Why the rush people say? I agree, come to me 20 times dog owner! But the reality is that it is a mental game, if the owner cant see light they give up, the dog loses. There are many ways I can rehab aggression the best for the dog is the one that keeps the owner trying.

Once owner stops trying, dogs life is limited.

Ok to spell it out.

The prong collar applied pressure to the dog.

The dog became aggressive due to the collar correction.

Instead of becoming aggressive toward the collar that supplied the pressure, the dog REDIRECTED that aggression toward the handler.

No Mr K9 what you saying is wrong.

K9: well of course your welcome to your opinion.

The dog is reacting on the handler because the handler try to fight the dog applying pain on the collar.

K9: well I guess that you use the collar much differently to me, I dont fight the dogs.

Many working dogs wont be taking collar correction challenge lightly, you try a nice working Shepherd, a Malinois or Dutchie on the prong in fighting drive and see what is happening or try on a dominant dog with good level of social aggression you dont be using prong collars or ecollars on dogs like this unless you want getting bitten. The prong is good tool, but MJ giving good advice on the wrong dog it can be elevating aggression or causing handler aggression, many good working dogs wont be taking prong and ecollar corrections without a fight, you should know that Mr K9 is too late to blame handler error after the dog attacks the handler.

K9: So Joe, you have been able to tell us here that if for instance I had a dog in front of me that has a good level of social aggression,I shouldn't use prong collar. So if I did and got bit, would it be my fault or the prongs fault?

I also noted that you edited your post, I don't think the breeders you mentioned would be too happy if you were promoting the dogs they breed as handler aggressive...

J: Mr K9, is very common for good trait in the protection dog to elevate aggression from pain, is what you want from a good dog get more nasty from the pain if someone fight him, if you training dogs that closing off in the prong collar for protection, you train the wrong dogs for the job. Is common for aggression elevating on the prong in some dogs is the reason we use often the prong for agitation work on the decoy, what MJ say is true, Many handler and trainer have been bit from the dog with prong and ecollar correction.

Joe

K9: I cant see anywhere I said that people have not been bit after delivering a prong collar correction. What I did say was it was and IS a trainer issue when you make the call to use a tool and you make a mistake with that dog. Dogs have redirected on front attach harnesses as MJ said, it is not limited to or only with the prong but the dog in question coupled with the trainer in question.

So you blame the collar because it highlights the mistakes of the trainer?

I must have watched at least 2000 people use a tug toy in a way that reduced drive.

I can't even say the tug they used were all of a common type, so should we be dubious of playing tug.

I can recall many dogs that have learned thongs other than what the trainer was trying to teach them with food, is food risky?

I am not trying to single you out MJ, I am just trying to highlight that the tool should not really be the focus.

The trainer chooses the tool, the trainer decides how much pressure, the trainer decides if the level in stimuli is correct to proceed with grainy / behavior modification.

When the trainer applies a correction and the dog does anything other than what the trainer was aiming at - it's trainer error.

It's a TRAINER error lol. Ban trainers lol

Ok to spell it out.

The prong collar applied pressure to the dog.

The dog became aggressive due to the collar correction.

Instead of becoming aggressive toward the collar that supplied the pressure, the dog REDIRECTED that aggression toward the handler.