Steve K9Pro

But that's what I thought the idea of conditioning was, whether through reinforcement or punishment. That the dog (or human or whatever creature) comes to associate the consequence with the action and therefore continues or discontinues the action based on the consequence. We toilet train dogs to take themselves outside through dog doors to toilet outside whether we are home or not using positive reinforcement, does punishment work differently? (again genuine question, I want to understand). You cannot eliminate yourself from the equation so when your not there the conditioning isn't either. Toilet training is creating a habit where the negativity is being around your own waste. Barking is a habit your trying to stop.

If your dog stops barking because the can rattles, what will it do when the can can't rattle because your not there?

If your dog hates going outside when it rains, does it stop going outside when it shines?

Eta it is also linked to you so will not deter barking when your not home

Of course shaking of the can is simple and cheap, also will be considered by the dog as punishment if it works. Punishment applied by the can shaker.

The dog does not need to injest citronella to cause harm, applying to the skin has been known to cause severe reactions

Citronella is a poison though. You also get what you pay for

K9: Hmm, so, Sassy jumps to avoid the knee, this likely means that she is jumping with a high level of enthusiasm. Now when she jumps we ignore her? This will produce an extinction burst, just like the knee did. How does one ignore a dog that is jumping on you with force and tearing your skin off with its nails?

K9: Just work from where you are, whether he sits or he doesn't, mark the eye contact and go from there

K9: Training the loose leash walk is something you can reinforce in the TOT but you really would be better teaching it and then proofing it under distraction. This is the point in which you should engage a trainer near you to help.

K9: Great work, hopefully your friend will be able to run the TOT as well

Place the food down and give her some time to build a little frustration, a minute or two? if she starts to get excited then encourage her with your voice, like "where is it?" or "want your dinner?" see how she goes

K9: I guess the same can be said for the trainers that make DVDs then hey? People buy them all over the world and cut out local trainers? I guess that you haven't noted the referrals page on my site with recommended trainers in every major city. K9: Except you of course who diagnoses just about every dog on here as fear aggressive and weak nerved, from as little as one post. K9: I would hazard a guess at passive aggressive tenancies with multiple personality disorder. Anyone who has this many log ins needs help. K9: no where is this program designed to address behavioral problems, it is a program to train a dog to walk on a loose leash. It just so happens it and more support helped with Skyes reactivity. K9: Some people send me video's taken under lights at 3aqm, not too many trainers are available at that hour of the person is a shift worker. Some people cant make the scheduled times trainers are available, some trainers are crap, some people have no trainers anywhere near them. No where is it stated or do I feel that a trainer in person of the same ability as me is not as good as email, but then again, you know that from the emails we have exchanged when you were looking for help... K9: This wouldnt be an internet diagnosis would it? K9: Another internet diagnosis... K9: if their drives are satisfied through other measures... K9: lol so you know nothing of Kathy Koppelis Mcleod, but you would rather Skye go see her even though I am providing results? lol Funny. In fact the trainers that use methods you criticize all of the time would welcome Kathy. BTW I know Kathy and refer to her too. But then again I also know you... It is quite obvious you are on a mission here, like I told you on the other forum, everyone knows who you are and your million log ins, so drop the fake accent and either post as yourself of shut up.

K9: Of course if a dog has a high reward history with another prey item it may not tug either, nothing at all to do with nerves.

K9: Yep we have them!

K9: No I am not ignoring this at all, and as you can clearly see it is just not my argument. Do you think prong collars should be banned? K9: Although I note your English has improved greatly in this post since the last one ;) maybe you didn't read what I wrote or didn't understand it. K9: sorry if I missed it but, who other than you is talking about protection dogs or agitation training? K9: Oh so your saying the that trainer that put the prong on the dog in MJs story put the prong collar on the wrong dog? I am pretty sure I said that, lots of times. K9: I didnt say that a prong collar wont raise aggression in some dogs, I said I am not having that reaction commonly, my clients are not having that reaction commonly, I put this down to the assessment I carry out on the dog and the method in which I use the collar and teach others to. So that said means the problem is not common to the tool if the tool is chosen based on the dogs temperament, the problem at hand and the skill of the handler. Air blocking collars are designed to take drive out of a dog, so they have their place of course, like every other tool, but if you air block a fearful dog, it too can redirect aggression as the dog panics, correct? K9: Read what I wrote, I didnt say it CANT happen. I can avoid this problem of occurring in most if not all situations by assessing the dog and choosing the right tool for the dog. When that is done correctly, you will not get aggression increase. If people choose to listen to what I say, its backed by the results they have seen. K9: Why would I do that Joe? I know the what the outcome would produce. K9: now your making shit up and I dont mean your user name! Where did I ever say such a thing? lol Hey whilst your reading this, there was a black shepherd that you linked us to a while ago, is that the sort of working dog that you wont use a prong collar on?

K9's written about the courses he's run for AQIS etc on his website before. http://www.k9pro.com.au/pages/AQIS-Training-Workshops-%252d-Handling-Dangerous-and-Aggressive-Dogs.html AQIS is not CUSTOMS....... They are completely separate organisations. He said that he runs training courses for Govern agencies, including Customs in his thread. I was curious to ask what courses for Customs he has run??? Cheers K9: sorry I missed the question, last year I ran multiple drive workshops aimed at scent detection for AQIS, there were a number of Customs handlers in each of those courses, the link should be this one.

K9: I might like to see the criteria that was used to determine why prongs went on these dogs, even in hindsight it was clearly not the right call or was misused. The results tell us that. Having that said, I dont disagree with anyone that would say that delivering a "insert correction collar here" to some dogs can produce aggression. The prong surely isn't a one size fits all fix. I think from memory,you have seen me train with a prong MJ and I will hazard a guess to say that it didnt produce any aggression toward me. I also haven't had a dog redirect onto me from a prong correction for a good 18 months maybe, and I can tell you that I A: work with a lot of aggressive dogs and B: work with a lot of prong collars. There are a heap of people here and on our facebook page that are telling of how I taught them to use a prong collar and they aren't being bitten. So I feel the 2/8 ratio is not common. Finally, not saying it never ever happens, just saying it isn't par for the course when using a prong collar.

K9: I dont have a problem with that Corvus, what I am saying is that, there is no point in saying that the experiences MJ reported are limited to the prong collar. K9: I guess it can be used as an argument when they are only talking about banning one tool and the reasons they give aren't limited to said tool. For example, someone says that they think the prong should be banned because it supplies an aversive. If it is one of many tools that supply aversive s, why is it being singled out? K9: I agree, but both of those harms can be caused by many things too, even just cruel handlers, inconsistent rewards. K9: Agreed, by people who sit on either side of the fence, it isn't either really. K9: Box cutters can be used to cut boxes or take over aircraft, we know this, so the potential for harm in those is great. The prong isn't as wide spread as that, but like everything, including a simple box cutter, it can be missused. This isn't something the prong promotes, nor is it limited to the prong collar, so I don't think it should be a reason to ban. There are many ways the handler can use the prong, when Joek said if you give a prong correction... we would need to look at what a correction is in his mind and compare that to mine. What is the state of mind the handler must be in when they pull the leash, how is the timing, what level of intensity is the correction delivered at. Now go back to the start and change the word prong to "insert other tool" and the same applies in his correction schedule. I may put said tool on same dog and not get the same reaction. So to me it is more about: - Is the tool useful to help me help people with their dogs? if the answer is yes then I will use it. Does the tool cause harm no matter how you use it? if yes then I wont use it. Just about every other argument that seems to pop up is in relation to trainer error or hearsay, things such as: - *Sharpening prongs, I have heard this so much but in all my time never ever saw a sharpened prong collar *Redirected aggression, this is not happening to me and I use prongs, why? *They cause injuries, never have I come across any proof of these injuries, many chiro's prefer the prong *You can't use them on soft dogs, I have and the results have been amazing, not in my head but in front of a crowd of people in seminars *They are cruel, No they are just metal, some people are cruel and stupid. I could go in but have work to do but I will say, many times people will bring me an aggressive dog for rehab, I may choose the prong collar to teach the dog how to walk on a loose leash and thus develop an impulse control foundation. I do not ever advise people to correct the dog for being aggressive. I don't believe this is the fastest way forward. People will say, "cant you teach a dog to walk on a loose leash without a prong". Obviously I can, but for me to coach the owner on this and get it reliable may take say 10 hours. Which is fine if all they were looking for is a loose leash walk, but walking on a loose leash is a tiny part of the rehab program and if we just focus on that for 5 weeks, the time spent could have been used on desensitization and then counter conditioning. In under ten minutes most times I produce a dog that walks for the owner happy and receiving rewards and not pulling the owner, we can then use the time right after that to start with aggression work. Why the rush people say? I agree, come to me 20 times dog owner! But the reality is that it is a mental game, if the owner cant see light they give up, the dog loses. There are many ways I can rehab aggression the best for the dog is the one that keeps the owner trying. Once owner stops trying, dogs life is limited.

No Mr K9 what you saying is wrong. K9: well of course your welcome to your opinion. K9: well I guess that you use the collar much differently to me, I dont fight the dogs. K9: So Joe, you have been able to tell us here that if for instance I had a dog in front of me that has a good level of social aggression,I shouldn't use prong collar. So if I did and got bit, would it be my fault or the prongs fault? I also noted that you edited your post, I don't think the breeders you mentioned would be too happy if you were promoting the dogs they breed as handler aggressive...

K9: I cant see anywhere I said that people have not been bit after delivering a prong collar correction. What I did say was it was and IS a trainer issue when you make the call to use a tool and you make a mistake with that dog. Dogs have redirected on front attach harnesses as MJ said, it is not limited to or only with the prong but the dog in question coupled with the trainer in question.

So you blame the collar because it highlights the mistakes of the trainer? I must have watched at least 2000 people use a tug toy in a way that reduced drive. I can't even say the tug they used were all of a common type, so should we be dubious of playing tug. I can recall many dogs that have learned thongs other than what the trainer was trying to teach them with food, is food risky? I am not trying to single you out MJ, I am just trying to highlight that the tool should not really be the focus.

The trainer chooses the tool, the trainer decides how much pressure, the trainer decides if the level in stimuli is correct to proceed with grainy / behavior modification. When the trainer applies a correction and the dog does anything other than what the trainer was aiming at - it's trainer error.

It's a TRAINER error lol. Ban trainers lol

Ok to spell it out. The prong collar applied pressure to the dog. The dog became aggressive due to the collar correction. Instead of becoming aggressive toward the collar that supplied the pressure, the dog REDIRECTED that aggression toward the handler.