Steve K9Pro

K9: Maybe I am wrong but I don't see anyone promoting Training in drive as a new thing? That seems to be coming up often in your posts, that "we" have been doing it for years. Whilst I don't doubt that, perhaps you can tell us who "we" are? K9: As we have discovered you dont know what the program envolves but and this may help but, we often have people still attending their club whilst supporting them through this program, call it extra help in many cases. there are some dogs that we build drive in an environment in which the dog is confident, then when drive is available they can go back to their club & use what they have built. On more than a few occasions people have been turned away from dog sport clubs being told their dog doesn't have enough drive, then drive was built through my program & the dogs went onto compete, and compete very well. I hear you about it was a suggestion, but when someone comes to a forum & makes their very first post in the nature you have, it doesn't go down well at times. K9: who is saying it is? K9: Ok well there are a thousand ways to train in drive so saying you get the same info & more is just rubbish. You don't know what you get as you have never done it. Many clubs are light years behind in terms of training a competition dog, but many aren't & they don't have to be dog sport clubs. You have put your opinion forward, thanks for that.

K9: Hi there & nice first post on the forum. Some dogs don't do so well in group environments & neither do some people. My program is not the be all & end all & it isn't advertised by us like it is. It doesn't work for every person or every dog either, there are a number of reasons for this but we try very hard to get people the very best results we can. K9: Hey Sparky, your not seen as a failure by me, just one waiting to get that moment. As you know there is no time limits either so I am ready when you are. K9: Some of your videos show real improvement, I would not give up on yourself just yet. K9: Thanks Sparky, life gets in the way for everyone at times, & so it should! Take your time, look after your growing bundle of joy (& congratulations), I be here when you need me.

K9: Clunk. I had to watch it again myself, some very nice distraction work there from a well above average dog!!!!!!!! :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D Stun Ning.

K9: I am sure there are, I just haven't come across someone who has mastered both when only practised theory. K9: Yep that would be me too! research & development is part of my every day life when working with dogs, if you heavily rely though on one & not the other, you don't get a true picture. K9: In my experience with clinicians that are heavily theory based on a wide variety of species, when given a problem to solve with one species, they always seem to quote another & rarely come up with any useful usable information. A professor I studied under only ever answered questions on new material, when someone asked a question on an animal that was more behaviourally driven, he sent them into the field. He said "go and ask a dog, ask many dogs, the answers all come from the source." K9: I agree, when I work with new trainers, they often spend time translating the practical steps I give them into scientific jargon, they stop doing this when their practical experience tells them information their theory doesn't. Sorry no offence was meant to Scientists, maybe I should have used the term theorists.

K9: Lol no one else does... K9: It becomes an issues when the dog thinks opposite to your goal and this happens this way sometimes. K9: I will answer this leaving you a base rule. I have seen dogs work & compete from all over the world, all the top workers & competitors alwats have one thing in common. They are clear headed. To a dog that means it knows what it has to do, when & how it will be paid. If sometimes the toy is on the ground, sometimes you go to the dog, sometimes the dog comes to you & sometimes yo throw the toy, the dog will have a hierarchy of which one of these reward systems it finds more rewarding. So it prepares for that one & fears and or considers the others, on top of these thoughts, I guess it has to run commands right?

K9: No it doesnt? K9: I never met a scientist who could train a dog worth a dam. K9: I have noticed that, any time someone questions you you strive off onto another species, if it isn't your Wild Hare its the Zebras in Africa. Children, Zebras, Hares & Dogs will all have similarities, but they are not the same. Instead of reading paper, as I have mentioned, if you really are keen to learn, grab a leash & go work with many dogs, the answers aren't written on paper, what is written is someone else's answers to their questions. K9: There are moments of drive but your letting (in this clip) the dog decide if it is in drive or not, this will suffer in reliablity I would suggest based on hunger. K9: Whilst this is the foundation for drive there is a lot more to it. K9: Ok what makes you expect that? It also means there will be some noise, but it isnt a contributing factor. K9: Ok but in other words, thats what I said to Long Coat, but low drive isnt no drive. K9: Every single dog in the world (living) has drive, they all stem from one species so they all operate on the same principles. Some dogs have very high thresholds to drives, = no usable drive. Some dogs have very weak nerves & the inhibitions this creates makes it impossible to trigger drives in certain circumstances, = no usable drive again. K9: I too when started training dogs in drive was schooled in a method that required dogs with massive drives & nerves of steel to (survive) succeed. But over many years I have been able to soften some of the steps & maximise drive through modified methods. Learned to sepate the drive model & focus on specifics to gain results. Looking at Huskis Daisy the Beagle for example, her natural desire was to be scent driven & ignore all else, where other training aspects pailed, Traing in drive has worked, but 10 years ago, we would have given up when she didnt blast out full of drive every time we looked at her. We know so much more now it opens up exciting new channels that were not possible before.

K9: In actual operation, I find that remote rewards that are in a fixed position & not flying or moving allow the dog to focus better on the task until the release. When the dog expects you to throw the ball, they sign track looking for the first change in bosy language that will alert them to the throw, so their major focus is on that rather than any of your goals. I prefer better communication to act as an encourager which in time becomes a secondary reward. K9: This is the establishing operations as mentioned though, its learned exercise but it may not be what the dog wants to do. K9: I find though that, when you throw the ball to the dog in the box & then train a recall separate, you do get a slower send away & often you get none when the dog thinks the throwing has stopped. I train the box in a line which is a flow on exercise, a stop on a full circle exercise if you like.

K9: the price is in line with the level of the presenter and the cost of bringing him out here. There are his travel costs, his costs for being away from work and of course it needs to be worth his while. I am booked out but if I can clear my schedule I will be there. I find if I pick up one thing or am reminded of something I had forgotten, the three days would be very worthwhile. Any one going who spots me there, come up and say hello!

K9: Yep perhaps! K9: Nothing wrong with rewarding the dog in position but, it rarely comes out reinforcing the position you were happy with, but rather the position the dog receives the reward in, think about it. I prefer better communication to act as an encourager which in time becomes a secondary reward. K9: Pretty close. K9: Yep but this also tells me your dog also prefers to gain the reward away from you, this is not what I try & achieve, I want the dog to earn reward with me. Right with me. K9: Good TID means a dog is in drive only when you want them to be. K9: I like to think of the reward as the release, not how good the toy is, or which toy it is. I find when I have different rules for different toys, I dont create a clear headed dog that works well, I fill the dogs head with rules on toys. K9: The key is (and I have highlighted it now) I said most cases. there are other ways to train the moves without throwing the ball, so when the whole picture is considered, we can decide which is best in that situation. I guess that's why I tailor make my TID programs to the goal. K9: If you taught a dog to send away by throwing the ball to where you want to send the dog, how to you get the dog to come back in drive?? There is no need to throw a ball to teach a send away in fact it can slow the process down.

K9: There are a number of different stages to the drive motor pattern, at times to differentiate between them & prevent the dog crossing into another stage or dropping the dog out of a stage corrections can be used with some dogs & not lose all drive. K9: AN adrenanalised dog may be pain insenstive so may not feel the correction as a punisher, yes. K9: It may stop him from going faster... Or they could just be poorly timed. K9: It has been common practice in protection training to increase a dogs drive for the fight by issuing multiplie pops on say a prong collar, this resembles the movies you see of footballers slapping each others faces when revving up. Pain at the right time helps increase adrenalin. I wouldnt refer to them as corrections though.

K9: 100% agree there, the reason that further study, research & development has occurred is to better understand how to break down the drive mtor pattern & work more effectively with it, rather than leaving success to pure genetics. K9: Agree here too, but when genetics provides just short of what is needed some drive development is needed, also the better understanding has made it possible to get them to shut off when needed. K9: Dogs without natural drive never get it, dogs with just short of the requirements or perhaps nerve levels just short of desirable can be trained in drive these days were in the old days they would fail.

K9: Training in drive is teaching the dog to achieve drive satisfaction by interacting with the trainer. K9: What your really asking is, what is drive? It is an adrenalin based behaviour the stems from a high desire. I know you need a theoretical 18 page thesis on everything to understand it, this just reiterates my point, you need experince not more books. Just because we cant see air, does that mean it isnt there? K9: To you it does. K9: A dog that is highly fearful is in drive, just not a positive one. The physiological state of the body / mind is the same, the outward actions may be different.

K9: Holding a toy is very much like eating a meal though. The path to get to the meal can be the same as the path to capture the tiy, if you do it right. I also do wonder how you can make these statements when it is clear that you have no experience in training in drive? K9: Then you need more experience reading body language in dogs. K9: I want to see the first one, the one you didnt record lol

K9: there is no reason why not to use a ball for TID, I just dont throw the ball for the dog to retrieve if I want focus from the dog. K9: I havent really thought of Labs as food "driven" dogs, because as retrievers they primarily are prey driven by breed definition. K9: They sound great, the first thing we would do in my program is stop throwing the ball. lol.. K9: The same action can desensitize the dog to the ball throw. Your not locking the reward system into the handler either. Dogs arent born ball driven they are born prey driven, then converted. One major problem is that, the dog often focuses on where it thinks the ball will land, then it starts to field & wait for the throw. None of this will benefit training in most cases.

K9: It should be noted that, in "my" training in drive program I don't advise throwing toys/balls/rewards in early stages of training. There are about 50 problems that can arise from this (in my experience) so its not done. ******************************************* K9: If your dog was highly motivated by the toys, this would be an accomplishment, but if he is not, dodging toys is like running on grass, not dodging anything really. Many people feel that something that has been defined by someone as a reward will always be a challenge to overcome, the thing to remember is "the reward must be rewarding to the dog". K9: Whilst ever you let the dog call the shots, you wont train him. K9: & it also provides satisfaction which provides balance in the dogs life. Without this in a highly driven dog, many unwanted behaviours form. K9: Sorry about the criticism but, having a driven dog leap at your armpit to steal a toy isnt the goal either, it is one of the reasons people dont like training in drive, they think it will produce a dog that will do this and its dangerous. Its developing a subconscious behaviour that has no benefit.

K9: This dog isn't in drive, drive can be described as an "adrenalin based behaviour" & there is very little of anything going on here. This doesnt mean the dog has no drive, just you haven't triggered it with the action you are using with the "prey" item. ********************************** K9: Yep 100% by pairing the game & reward process with the handler, the handler becomes the reward source, even if the reward is obtainable by the dog, it isnt complete without the handler release, which is part of the trigger to partake in the reward. K9: Training in drive can really be any adrenalin based game that ends up with the dog learning something. Good training in drive programs ensure the handler is in control of the reward systems & triggers, then & then only can moves be reliably trained. K9: Its also about the dog becoming aware that it has no concerns about the alpha issuing punishment in a drive sequence & can enter full drive without concern. IE Trust. K9: Another way to say this is that, many training programs teach exercises on a conscious level, meaning the dogs understand perfectly how to complete the request. This is like std obedience through repetition. The problem with this is that, when the dog is trained this way & confronted with a drive trigger, they leave the conscious style of training & go after the drive trigger. They also can lack the enthusiasm you see in Seita's dog. Training in drive approaches this problem from a different angle in that, we use the drive to train the dog so it is the ultimate distraction. K9: Your did well! But of course your videos prove that!!!!!!

K9: In another thread there is some feedback on our distance learning packages, we also have one on teaching the Loose Leash Walk, that may be of interest to you.

K9: This is called a concomitant cue. Happens plenty in all dogs just has to be predicated & trained around.

K9: K9: no, what you need to do is mark yes when you get what you want, then move to remove the back tie but hold the collar, release the collar & say ok at the same time. You will see the dog start to wait for the release, when you do, delay the release, this is how you teach the stay in the TOT.

K9: Yep remote rewards are one way we teach the dog that the reward does not have to be seen on the handler. K9: Never say never.... K9: 5 kilos of power though lol, she has awesome drive!!!

K9: You dont handle it, you direct it, enjoy t & teach your dog how to use it. K9: lol why would you Zuma is a machine!!!! I am pretty excited about this one & were only just started!!! K9: Busy isnt the word lol, but sure I can still talk on the phone, usually have an hour a day so if you need to hear the voice & will understand better, shoot me an email & I will let you know a time. & yes they are all great replies, but like I said, spend time with some of these people who have done the course & their enthusiasm will rub off on you, they all rock! K9: There are usually no corrections, we need to preserve as much drive as we can get & rule of thumb is corrections reduce drive. There is the removal of the reward, which is in fact an aversive to a driven dog, but we move in incremental steps to allow the dog to learn how to win more often. We wont break your dog K9: Part of a complete program is to consider all things, for example my 2 shepherds are trained to work in drive for an orbee ball, my 6 year old boy who has watched Dad train the dogs walks out with the same ball I use to drive my dogs. The dogs will not trigger on the ball in his hands, or any one else's hands. Drive is triggered by "trigger phrase + me" not toy or other prey. I dont have to have the toy, move the toy or the dog believe the toy is there to have drive. K9: In some cases with some dogs yes.

K9: Yep I really think that you will never understand a driven dog until you help the dog achieve drive satisfaction too, puts the final tick in the box for a lot of people. K9: This is the case with many dogs, they dogs genetic desire for drive success ends up helping the dog learn behaviours we would rather they didnt, so best to start with a young dog with no drive history, then write the book! But Mica is just more proof like Dyz that its never too late! K9: It is pretty standard still for people to jump on drive the minute they see it, as it is usually linked to bad or hyperactive out of control behaviour. When we train in drive it is still hyper active, just controlled good behaviour, 2 minutes looking at Seita's vid will demonstrate that. K9: The course is on Training in drive, I run them for all positive drives, Prey, Food & pack & Yep Ella's work is awesome. K9: Most people are the same, & it isnt anything wrong with the info, its that its a number of programs mixed together leaves holes. Making mine work meant every step needs to be done before problems set in, so getting the order right for each dog is the key. Some dogs we put in the release early, other later, depends on 4 major points. K9: Each module prob gives you about 30 - 40% of the info you need, the rest comes from me through back & forward emailing etc. You must keep emailing me every week so I can keep tuning. So we will be stuck with me lol. K9: I think our site says 4 months, not many are running to that schedule lol, there is no time limit.

K9: Thanks to all you guys that have mentioned how happy they have been with the results & those that posted your video's & pics. I am really pleased with the program in its current state of development, all the programs I run are always under development so that they stay up to date with my most current strategies etc. I initially had a lot of difficulty coming to terms with running these programs over the internet & began this by only having a module to help develop drive when I was going to be working with people one on one, sort of gave them a head start before the lesson. Through great feedback from my early participants and a lot of time dedication on my part & also a lot of research & development with dogs I work with here at home, I was able to create a basic template for a number of programs, then with initial feedback we get from the first questionnaire sent out, I can personalise the program to suit the specific dog, handler & goal. Once we get started then its feedback - feedback - feedback and constant tuning by me to work toward the end goals. I have to say though that the people who have told of their results through this program are the real stars, they put in the work, give the feedback & train the dogs. They make my job easy & deserve the credit. I also love it when I travel to say Qld & get to see the dogs work right in front of me, like I was able to in my last workshops in Qld. I saw Huski & Seita runhttp://www.dolforums.com.au/index.php?act=post&do=reply_post&f=9&t=185863 their dogs and I think it was easy to see how very proud I was of their work. I still get emails from people months later now raving about how happy & motivated both Daisy and Ella were! I also got to see some of Dysney's, Laerals & Kayla1s work when I was in Melbourne doing private consults and again, lovely to see the actual results in front of me. Again dogs that loved the work! Seen plenty of Shoemonsters Ed as well, Super Ed (as I call him) transformed into a machine right in front of me (on video), driven dogs just really thrive on this program. I will try & add some answers to individual questions now...

K9: Your welcome & I am glad its working for you. K9: Yes I intermittently do create drive, this is just like adding distraction & reward in the one step, so yep keep it up. K9: For a pup I only go back one step so the pup doesnt learn the TOT is a program about failure. K9: You have at some stage waiting too long before releasing, so the pup thinks this is a relax & you get your food deal. Change the feeding place & start by making drive again, make sure the pup is hungry & place the food just out of pups reach, get the pup driven before pressing on.

K9: Ideally I would rather only use the marker once then build up the time until the release.