Steve K9Pro

K9: Definatley not going anywhere... Except SA, Victoria and Qld to help Huski with her handling

Real hint is K9force is not getting a new web site.

Does that mean you're keeping the same address but getting an upgrade?? That's my bet ;)

K9: How much you wanna bet? K9force.net will be no more.

K9: ok here is a hint, log onto k9force.net on the 1st March, if you can...

Real hint is K9force is not getting a new web site.

K9: I intend to for sure

K9: Hi Guys & thanks for your interest, as Training in drive is such an indepth topic & I am sure we would cover other topics as well, the workshop will be at least one day.

Private consults will likely be on another day, were tied up with some big changes in K9 Force right now, & organising the Adelaide workshop etc, but as soon as we get some spare time, we will be into the set up of this one

K9: How do you know? If responding to the distraction is either physically rewarding or chemically rewarding, it wont stop.

Because I tried it. And it can and does stop. I know, because I tried it, and it did. How about that! Have you read Control Unleashed?

K9: I suppose you think it did work, that will be because we differ in what the terms, reliable, proofed, distraction & trained mean.

If you show a dog a distraction that triggers drive, & you just keep turning up to that environment, even though you dont let the dog engage the trigger, the dogs frustration for that drive trigger will increase, the distraction will become more distracting not less distracting, thats not from a theoretical point of view, thats from actual fact.

C :Ask 'em something easy and reward. Or I use a Least Reinforcing Scenario. Or both! They seem to like the both best. I don't use LRSs much, but I've decided there's a time and place for them, and it's often when I've made a mistake.

K9: So the dog learns that the first command you gave doesnt need to be complied with, because you will give it something easier to do & the dog can access the reward that way.

It's funny you should say that. I used to think that way. Then I adjusted my thinking because I discovered I was wrong about 99% of it. The other 1% is a whole range of possibilities.

K9: I know a guy that thought that he could beat his dog with a stock whip to get it to behave, he just as much you do do today, believed he was right. His dog & everyone around him didnt, thats the key point of difference.

I get the sense you want me to PM you.

K9: No you dont, your well aware of what I am talking about.

I believe you have a PM button as well.

K9: Rarely used, in the many years I have been here, I have emptied the box less than twice. If I want to say something, I say it.

Believe it or not, this thread ain't about you. Like MonElite said, it's hardly a new idea.

K9: If you check my postings you will see I have said that a number of times.

I was vaguely curious how many people who trained in drive actually did the isolation thing and why. And, naturally, I have an opinion on it as well. My opinion on any form of manipulative isolation has been the same for some time, now. If you want to claim this one as your own, then go ahead, but don't try to make it into something personal between you and The Evil Scientist or something.

K9: I have never made anything personal, you will have to look elsewhere for that.

I'm kinda flattered that I even register on your radar, let alone provoke some casual abuse.

K9: Hard to miss you on my radar, you hit near every thread here with your "views". I havent abused you at all, it will be clear if I do.

K9: It makes it easier on the dog to gain reward by setting an environment that doesnt distract the dog (from reward). So by teaching in a distraction free environment, it makes for less stress on the dog, you know, I do this so I dont ruin soft dogs...

C: Aw, you've missed my point.

K9: Maybe it would help if you PMd me your "point" rather than PMing others your points about me?

If you practice things heaps in distracting environments they stop being distracting.

K9: How do you know? If responding to the distraction is either physically rewarding or chemically rewarding, it wont stop.

It's not like I dumped a puppy in the park and expected them to learn a formal heel right then and there. It's just adding dog parks to the list of places where training may occur.

K9: If the exercise has been trained previously & the dog park was not outside of the dogs mental capacity to work under, thats fine, it just isnt the place to teach dogs that are distracted by the park.

Kivi is really cute about it. He takes a break from running around and comes over to either sit patiently in front of me or OH or glue himself to someone's left leg in the hopes that someone will do some training with him.

K9: So he has taught you to wait until he is ready to take a break from what he really wants to do. Nice work that is cute.

C: Occasionally they give me a blank look and I figure we need some more practice at home

K9: What happens then? they arent given the reward I guess. I am sure that works (for you) but I find setting the dog up to win a much fairer system. Especially on soft, easy ruined dogs.

C :Ask 'em something easy and reward. Or I use a Least Reinforcing Scenario. Or both! They seem to like the both best. I don't use LRSs much, but I've decided there's a time and place for them, and it's often when I've made a mistake.

K9: So the dog learns that the first command you gave doesnt need to be complied with, because you will give it something easier to do & the dog can access the reward that way.

K9: correct, but I think this one was being aimed a little closer than Police departments etc.

What do I care what police departments do? They all work with GSDs!

K9: wrong again.

K9: Just so you know, we stock a full range of tug toys, we just havent got them listed yet, wont be long though.

Are you bringing them down to Adelaide? Maybe it would be best for me to wait until after your seminar and then start again with a proper tug toy

K9: I think I will be bringing some, havent thought that far ahead as yet, we have pics etc if you email use can can guide you through the right selection process, or as you said you can see them when I am in SA. Either way suits me.

Seeing as we are talking early development here and K9 Force is around, can I ask a couple of questions?

What age would you start drive work K9 Force?

K9: The minute I meet the pup or dog.

I have a new pup that looks like she will like toys but I have managed to make the other borders too well behaved (will not take tug off Mummy). Any tips on avoiding this with this pup? She has a different nature so it might not be an issue anyway.

K9: Dont enforce any real rules until you have the "rules of engagement" set between you & your pup, then you should have success.

Many "good" training programs that create a well behaved dog will teach the dog not to display drive (raise drive thresholds). There is nothing wrong with these programs in most cases either, we use them sometimes here under the right circumstances, just not good for dogs that you want to use natural desire (drive) for in all cases.

Sorry lots of disclaimers there (in most cases etc) but you have to these days when every word one says is redirected by some.

Training in drive is a natural way of letting the dogs genetics help you achieve your goals, rather than working against them, so it takes a different approach to ensure that we dont deminish that in any way or in any way make the dog feel that drive is not appropriate, if you do that, your one step ahead.

K9: It will be before your eyes, before you know it! Keep your "eyes peeled", not your breath held. lol

Wont be long now...

K9 while you're around, can i ask a quick naive question about building drive - does it have to be with the same toy or tug each time?

Pete seems just as happy to play with anything I decide to use, e.g. head on a rope or a teddy bear..

Does it add confusion, or not make a difference?

Thanks

K9: The true answer is that it depends, working with live animals takes some of the prediction ability out but, I always start with one toy & only use that until I have drive built, many times first 4 weeks, sometimes more, sometimes less. Then I make it a point to vary the toys between a number of prey items that I consider to be safe for the dog.

I dont like to develop drive with various toys at the start because I have seen a few dogs stop after teh trigger phrase & try & guess which toy is coming, it is a step "I" prefer not to have to train out.

Does that make sense?

Yes thank you that does make sense!

You just confirmed what I thought - that I need to pull my socks up and get onto the people Erny suggested for the tugs and stop just using toys before you come to Adelaide!

K9: Just so you know, we stock a full range of tug toys, we just havent got them listed yet, wont be long though.

how did that work for you?

That worked very well!

Dogs were keen to get out and to work.

It also showed us the dogs in all their moods...

the ones who were anxious in kennels, the ones to whom a change of scenery was THE best thing, the ones who very quickly adapted to the routine...

It's a learning thing- the brain is continually seeking stimulation, and so the individual will do whatever it takes to gain that

K9: Uh huh, thats my belief too.

Ok- I am way out of the loop here- and am not used to the terminology - so forgive me-

When training Guide dogs, which is where I did most of my dog work. ...

dogs were spending a lot of time in a concrete kennel- no way of seeing the outside world, etc. They were of course in large open runs for toilet and play opportunities, but mostly in a kennel...

THEN they were taken out for training.

No actual training was done in the kennel environment- it was all out & about..starting with very quiet and simple environments, with tasks to suit.

Their 'drive', I am supposing was fuelled by the desire to be out, to be somewhere stimulating...

As time went by, so did their keenness increase..and when the harness bodypiece was introduced, most leapt at the chance to be allowed to 'pull' a bit, and to start really 'working'

Is this sort of the idea?

K9: Thats a very similar principle yep, how did that work for you?

K9 while you're around, can i ask a quick naive question about building drive - does it have to be with the same toy or tug each time?

Pete seems just as happy to play with anything I decide to use, e.g. head on a rope or a teddy bear..

Does it add confusion, or not make a difference?

Thanks

K9: The true answer is that it depends, working with live animals takes some of the prediction ability out but, I always start with one toy & only use that until I have drive built, many times first 4 weeks, sometimes more, sometimes less. Then I make it a point to vary the toys between a number of prey items that I consider to be safe for the dog.

I dont like to develop drive with various toys at the start because I have seen a few dogs stop after teh trigger phrase & try & guess which toy is coming, it is a step "I" prefer not to have to train out.

Does that make sense?

C: Firstly, all my training is highly rewarding. That's why Erik gets hysterical when I'm training Kivi, I guess. Secondly, Erik at least does put in maximum effort, and we still walk him (because otherwise I would have to train him nearly constantly to keep him busy!) and yet, somehow, he still comes in with maximum effort afterwards.

K9: How do you measure maximum effort? Does he have a guage?

Kivi is steady in his training effort regardless of whether he's skidded in from a wild game with some of his dog friends at the park or whether he's got up from a nap to train. There's just no effect. I would buy this otherwise, but them's the facts.

K9: with two dogs...

Furthermore, we all know that there's more to getting out of the yard than just expending energy. My dogs come back from a walk more stimulated than when they left. In fact, if I thought I needed a boost in energy for training, I'd take them for a turn around the block on leash first. Just enough exercise and mental stimulation to get everything up and going without making them remotely tired.

K9: so if you had a competition or working dog, you would have to take them around the block before a competition or job to get them stimulated? Hmm that may not be what everyone thinks is the best idea.

The issues arent often about being physically tired either, did anyone say that?

C: I know crap all about what K9 Force does or doesn't do,

K9: For once, I agree with you totally, maybe thats the message you should be spreading.

but I'm genuinely interested to know how many people isolate their dogs during drive building. How long does it normally take, anyway?

K9: How long is a piece of string. It takes as long as it takes.

C: I guess I've never paid much attention to time before distance before distraction. I've taught new behaviours from scratch in the dog park or out walking.

K9: It makes it easier on the dog to gain reward by setting an environment that doesnt distract the dog (from reward). So by teaching in a distraction free environment, it makes for less stress on the dog, you know, I do this so I dont ruin soft dogs...

C: Occasionally they give me a blank look and I figure we need some more practice at home

K9: What happens then? they arent given the reward I guess. I am sure that works (for you) but I find setting the dog up to win a much fairer system. Especially on soft, easy ruined dogs.

H: Are you looking for an argument, Corvus, or are you using this thread to bait someone? Feels like the latter to me

K9: Oh Huski I am sure that isnt the case, unless the PM function on this board has been deleted I am sure Corvus has nothing against me. I have never met her, worked with her dog nor has she seen any of my methods or know anything about what i do, why would she want to argue with me? Would not make any sense.

SM: I was thinking the same thing, or just that Corvus really really wants to find a way to get everyone to agree that Steve's drive training is "bad"

K9: Well Eddy & Molly must be suffering pretty bad then lol...

H: it would hardly be the first time.

K9: Well PMs have to be good for something I guess.

I: Corvus - if you are this interested in drive training, why don't you do Steve's distance course, or attend a seminar as you seem to have quite a blurred vision on the right way to do this.

K9: lol I cant see that happening.

M: Separating the dog from the outside stimuli while building drive is not a new concept, when you think of the police dogs - this is exactly how they are trained - they spend days in kennels, and are being taken out only for training.

K9: correct, but I think this one was being aimed a little closer than Police departments etc.

M: For an owner that potentially wants to train in drive and lets say compete with his/hers dog that could do with more drive, it might be the way to go, but I personally dont see a need for it if the dog is VERY drivey.

If the dog genetically has plenty of drive then there is no real reason to build it up right?

K9: The first section of my program is to "develop drive", for some dogs that is to build drive yes, for some dogs its to build drive for a certain object, other times its to overcome past training that may hinder drive work now, sometimes it is to allow the handler & dog to learn the steps together.

It causes no issues but often cures many regardless of the level of drive the dog starts with.

C: I recently heard that while building drive in dogs initially you should isolate them. As in, don't take them for walks, even.

K9: Yes I am sure you have heard that, but are you talking about MY TID programs or ALL TID programs. In mine yes the dog has other activities restricted for a short period of time whilst drive is being developed.

I don't really get why you would do that.

K9: Well that doesnt surprise me, there are many things you dont get or dont want to get.

I'm pretty confident my dogs would both be climbing the walls if they were isolated in their yard/house for just a week.

K9: But of course like most things that you try & portray as no good, you havent tried it, so your speaking from a place of theory.

Perhaps they would climb the walls or perhaps they would be climbing into the game.

I went out of my way to get Erik playing tug in all sorts of places quite early on. I can't really imagine how that would possibly cause problems later on.

K9: In the Images of drive thread, you were asking what drive is & could not identify what a dog in drive looked like so perhaps before telling us how you dont think problems would be caused, you may try & gain a little more experience first.

K9: Hey Melbomb, just checked with the office & your email bounced back, we need to check your email address.

Pete the Dog we didnt have your email address on our list.

If anyone still doesnt have the infomail, just shoot us an email to be added. [email protected]

C: Say Steve, you don't offer reading courses too do you?

K9: Our Distance Packages are text based, but they arent a casual read, there is a lot of work in them, well the Training in drive one is thats for sure.

Short of that you can look at my website, new articles will be coming soon to that too.

K9: Hi Guys, if you have added your name to our SA list you should now have an email from us. If you have not got one, please send us one so we can add you to the list.

Anyone that would also like more information, please email us on [email protected]

K9: There is a lot more to giving a leash correction than jerking the leash, I think that gets lost in translation at times. I understand why your dog would perform better without corrections Luvdogs, but correcting to vocalisation levels is too hard for any dog.

The other consideration is that, dogs reluctantly perform for a correction, they perform well for a correctly used motivator though. Corrections are to deminish behaviours you dont want to see, not train new ones.

The attitude of the handler is also paramount to giving an "effective" correction.

K9: when talking to those that are in favour of high correction levels, I always find that when high level corrections are being used, reducing the distraction levels proves better than trying to raise correction levels.

I agree that some dogs can "take" a high level correction, that though didn't mean they "needed" a high level correction.

I encourage new trainers to stop & consider the distractions around the dog & its level of training before ramping up the correction level / intensity.

My biggest connundrum is how do you make a dog more confident?????

K9: The tot is a known confidence builder, so it would be great if we can get this working for you.

She will quite happily look at me the rest of the time except in the triangle.

K9: As I said video will tell us a lot, she could be submissive when food is between you & her or rank too, more body language is needed to decide. Ither way it is fixable.

i even started a week of the triangle with just them giving eye contact, she seems to panic at the idea of being tied out which is why i have persisted b/c i want her to be able to be tied

K9: Ok there are a number of reasons for the tie out but, if she wont approach the food without permission, then lose the tie out for now. As long as your not stopping her from taking the food with verbal or physical pressure.

No she has always been a very submissive type (I think anyway). She cringes ,tail b/w her legs, won't look at me, and won't obey known commands (very stubborn).

I was intending to send you some vid's of me trying to get her motivated for her toy and of the TOT

K9: Yes please do, look forward to them.

On a different note she is much more confident and less nervous about other dogs being around, she actually sniffed another dog the other day ( a large dog), she usually pees and cringes and hides. None of this, not outgoing but better.

As for my other whippet - it has worked wonders with her behaviour.

K9: Ok great lets see some video please.

Hi

I have been working on the triangle now with the 2 dogs for almost a month with great results in their behaviour. Lucy the territorial whippet is much calmer and less dominant towards us.

K9: Thats great news!

Bella however, comes to be tethered but when you put the food down she becomes overly submissive toward me. Her sit is a crouch with reluctance to look at me, but not looking at the food usually the floor. Also as you would expect the dog should become more eager to work for food, she has become for relucant and less obediant.

I would expect her to just sit when the command is given - but she doesn't. I had a chicken leg in my hand today and it took 3 goes. I am sure she knows the command. She did the same thing at dinner time, just wouldn't sit for her dinner.

K9: Ok many times people see a behaviour & may label it incorrectly, whilst lowering if the head & refusing eye contact may be one of submission, it also may be one of dominance, I would love to see a video of this dog if you would email it to me?

The TOT is a very easy program on the dogs if carried out correctly, there is no need to stop it, but perhaps we need to look at how it is being carried out.

Can you tell me, you mentioned that

I have been working on the triangle now with the 2 dogs for almost a month with great results in their behaviour.

Were things going well & then dropped off?