Steve K9Pro

K9: Tickets for the Adelaide workshop and Private consults go on sale Monday, first release will be to our mailing lists!!!

K9:lol thanks guys, yep we have been busy!

K9: One mini Steve ette, coming up.....

K9: No probs, we can run Daisy through UDX when I am up eh? K9: Hey guys, I have been so busy last 12 months I admit missing some treadmill and gym sessions, BUT I am back on it now, treadmill and Gym every day... Pregnant? me? noooooo K9: Oh come L, I just read someones email and it sounds like someone is on fire!!! Your last clip was awemsome, wicked improvement! You got my drive up now!

K9: Yep, its all under control News item just released! Those that joined our E newsletter have recieved it first, some new info there! News here!

Just placed my order Will the website show if item is out of stock? K9: Asking the wrong guy there, they will email you back if there is any reason the order wont go out.

C: Wouldn't you be able to tell if you saw it? K9: You would get an idea, but it would need be tested formally to guage a true level of drive. C: Asking. I'm trying to understand exactly what you're talking about when you speak of a dog's level of drive. Its level of drive in relation to what? Natural level? Artificial level? The level during one or another specific activity? Are we talking a general level of drive or are we talking the level of drive a dog has for particular activities at particular times? K9: The level of drive the dog has vs the level required to get the results you need. C: What, are you five? If you don't want to share basic information, then what are you doing on a discussion forum? K9: I did not know it was a pre requesite to join that I had to answer every question asked of me. I think your closer to five than me... C: I'll be charitable and assume we are once again perhaps talking about different things. K9: I am sure the "charity" will continue through a series of PMs... C: Schutzhund trainers like to talk about "nerve" as something that describes how much pressure a dog will work through. It's usually used in conjunction with "drive" as a measure of a dog's overall working ability, as a dog with plenty of drive might have its drive evaporate the moment a little pressure is introduced. Are we on the same page? K9: Sounds like your onto something, see, you can do it, but it is not restricted to Schutzhund or Schutzhund trainers. C: My question was, how does "nerve" by the above meaning have anything to do with whether a dog sees a stationary, caged rabbit and wants to kill it, or whether it sees a stationary, caged rabbit and is merely moderately interested? Where's the pressure in this situation? The drive might change depending on what the rabbit is doing, but any pressure is constant, so changes in drive must be a result of the stimulus rather than a dog's nerve. K9: what do you think might happen if, you showed a dog a Rabbit for the first time and the moment the dog laid eyes on the rabbit, you introduced a high level punisher? Do you think if you repeated this exercise the dog would see the rabbit as a trigger to prey or avoidance - flight? Same Rabbit, same dog, different response. What if the dog was overly nervous and just the sight of the rabbit triggered avoidance do you think if the rabbit ran, the dog would just chase it? C: My original example was dogs that have loads of drive for playing chase games not responding to a rabbit unless it runs. As opposed to dogs that go into drive the instant they become aware of a rabbit in the vicinity, whether it's moving or not. The pressure is still constant, so the controlling factor must be the stimulus (bunny). My point was a dog that doesn't know what to do with a bunny on sight/smell is not a very prey driven dog in my books. K9: these are live animals, they respond to various stimuli. C: If you don't want to talk about it no one's gonna make you. I'll just go ask some people that have done your course. And some of the Schutzhund trainers I know. K9: Go for it... C: Are we sparring? In all honesty, I thought we were having an adult discussion. You'll know when I'm sparring. K9: Please wake me if I miss it, it is clear to many on here what your attempting to do, I knew that before I read the copies of your PMs... C: Thanks for the tip. I think I mentioned before that I'm starting a PhD on dog behaviour at the end of the month, so yeah, I'm doing just that. K9: Yeah more books, just what you need... C: Did you know most of what we know about neurobiology, biochemistry and learning theory comes from studies of rats? They added primates and dogs once they got going on something. K9: yep, thats correct, but those studies only provide a basic study of how the animals functions, it varies greatly after that level research. C: Most of it is pretty comparable in mammals, and behaviour follows much the same rules in any species that has a brain. The differences are in the details. K9: Correct again, but when your missing the details you go back to species theory, I can tell you that wont get you anywhere forward of where you are. By moving back to your comfort zone, you dont accomplish anything. C: So when I'm talking differences I compare species or individuals depending on what differences I'm discussing, and when I'm talking general concepts I treat all species as much the same. K9: yes you do, that is probably why it isnt working for you. C: It seems to aggravate dog people, but this is how I was taught. It's a nested approach that more or less follows taxonomy. Individual-species-genus-family-order. It doesn't get much broader than order, though. K9: I am sure it aggravates most people who know something about the species your generalising to rank yourself with those or above those that work in said field. I think we have travelled far enough left field now, let the OP have their thread back.

K9: Lots of things, I am sure you can guess ITS A SURPRISE... K9: Stage two at 2am, 3 at 3am and so on lol... No daytime I promise...

K9: Oh stuff about dogs. I am surprised you didnt pick up my little drive trigger "releasing STAGE TWO!"

K9: Yeah I am excited about the Rescue program and SAD program too, we have a lot of resources available to us, and we can sure point them in the rioght way with these programs... Hopefully with ours and peoples help, we can make a difference.

K9: Thanks again everyone for the kind words, and the sales guys, we had miles of stock and it is dropping fast, we had to order more sooner than expected, as I said we will definately honour any discount even if we need to back order. We will also be at the time of our first newsletter, releasing STAGE TWO! Keep your eyes peeled!!!!

K9: Because it cannot be done with any degree of accuracy, drive peak is a dynamic action, drive itself is a number of sequences rolled into one, dynamics are not captured in still shots, it is like trying to take a still shot of sound. But hey maybe this will help, why dont you go back and look in the thread you started called "Images of dogs in drive". In that thread, people sent you pictures they took of their dogs in drive, you could not see drive in many of them. K9: Are you asking me or telling me... You seem to know, stick with that. K9: Once a dogs drive has been used as a motivational engine to achieve an action, you may never see its raw natural drive again, its is a modified version from then on in. K9: No I am not going to answer it, you are here making statements as if they are facts but dont know what impact nerves have on drive, this is very basic information, you need to do a course that involves some practical and it will be one of the first things taught to you (if you will listen) Coming on here wanting to spar with me doesnt get you my help. K9: I know what you have said, and of course you have said that, you know better than all of us. K9: that would have been written by people that actually worked with dogs, not read about them. In those books though, there would have been still images I am guessing, we know your interpretation of what you see in a still image leaves a lot to be desired. K9: If by fresh eyes you mean novice, did you, or did you look through the eyes of someone who read about it and now thinks they know it. K9: Perhaps you need to expand your own ideas rather than just copy and paste from text books. Why dont you go and read the book written by the Monks of New Skete, in there it details how to perform an Alpha roll and that it is an essential behaviour therapy to restructure packs. Thats a book, studied by many, is it right? hmm go try and see. I have a dog coming this afternoon, nice big fellow that your welcome to come Alpha role, we will see whose pack gets restructured. When you read a book, your getting the authors opinion, just like reading here. Just because you like the author or like the theory, doesnt make it right. It was written the earth was also flat, times change, research and development (field testing) in dog behaviour gets rewritten as new information is uncovered and dogs evolve. In many of your posts, you refer to your two dogs and your mums dogs, in others you refer to other species and when referring to the species we discuss here, dogs, you tend to lump them all into one category and sometimes various species into one category. When I look at Zebra and dog, I dont see species, I see millions of animals, no two dogs, or Zebras, or Wild Hares, are the same.

K9: Yes, but when the dog goes into over drive, you would be able to re direct, so your better to teach foundations before. One problem could be that your dog has a genetic desire for more drive satisfaction than the life it has now is giving, which will mean she will be looking for drive satisfaction where ever she goes. So working in prey drive may help with that too. K9: Thats a very basic idea yes. K9: yep it can be and depending on who is doing the testing, is done every time.

K9: Many as we can cover, we usually do weekly updates and sometimes more in between if were nutting out something. K9: Its a good point, I think some people forget that this forum is not the K9 Force or Pro business, its my interest too, not me posting from a business, just as a person. I am no more important than any other person on here, nor do I get special previledges, I follow the rules like every one else. I started the Drive topic as I love training in drive, love it! So I talk about it, whether I am at work or not lol. I have had really strong success with the TOT for years, since I designed it really, I have so many people that want to give it to their friends I felt it only fair make it public. The win for me in this is that I get to put it to an even bigger test audience, and its gone very well. With these big changes the work load over the last few months has been very high, so I have not been around here a lot, I also get a little sick of people asking loaded, seemingly friendly questions for their own amusement on the PM and MSN waves. I know a few trainers that offer advice on here (lets remember free) that have pulled away for the same reasons. Ask any questions you like in the TOT thread, I will get to them for sure, as for other threads I reply when I feel like I can add something that will help in the time I have. You dont need monthly consultancy for that, it would be over kill. Just ask away or email me if you like.

K9: Sure no problems, it basically gives you access to anything I can help you with, many people use it when they want advice in detail right away (via email). We can set goals for certain behaviours or we can set goals for certain moves or titles. Starts with an in depth questionaire that we send you, once complete and I deem the program suitable and the dog eligable, there is an initial discussion then a set of instrcutions with the first changes that need to take place. These are sent out and they are discussed again and put into place, feedback is sent via email and or video and we work through the steps. Very similar to our Distance Learning Packages but not stuct to the constraints of a one goal package if that makes sense. Like the one I am finishing off that is "Bringing your baby home", it can have steps from the Loose Leash DLP, steps from the Training in Drive DLP and other steps to make things flow smoothly for mum to be. What ever it takes really. We are expecting one of our "test" mums to be delivering next few days, once baby comes home and we observe how well an out of control dog behaves when mum and new baby are around, the program will be released. They can be done month by month consecutively or single month at a time or by the quarter. Is there anything else I can tell you about them?

K9: Yeah it is completely instinctual. K9: The behaviour is triggered in the dogs with the prey instinct that is still strong, once the behaviour has been completed the dog experiences chemical reward, the dog wants to repeat this over and over again. K9: Yes it is, any working dog be it herder or Schutzhund (these days) is modified prey drive, different action, same reward experience. Example of using instinctual drive and reshaping is Huskis Daisy, nose dominant Beagle that experienced reward by scenting, like many of the breed do. That has been modified so the same reward experience is felt, just working in an obedience routine.

That's an interesting interpretation with shades of Behan. I'm not entirely sure what you mean. Do you mean the dog is chasing senselessly because it hasn't learnt there's anything more to chasing? K9: The dog chases because it is instictually driven to chase. C: In Ness example, the level of drive can not be determined by these examples, regardless of body language Are you saying drive is static? K9: No I am saying the level of drive cannot be determined from the examples given, thats pretty clear from the answer I gave. On the other hand, my mum's Vallhund can't be in the same room as my rabbits. He tries to bust into their cages. He doesn't play chase games, and rarely plays tug, but he'll snap a lizard up before you realise it's even there. K9: Reward history over genetics. Butbutbut, it's not like he's never played games or doesn't like them. He's had the same upbringing that the toy nut has. He loves tug, but only once in a blue moon, K9: Then he doesnt love it does he. and it's absolutely a social reward rather than a predatory reward K9: Then were not talking about prey drive are we. K9: If it was genetics, how would the drive reward go out if it? Wouldnt it not have been there in the firsdt place if it were a genetic trait? K9: That is your interpretation of what is happening, lets not confuse that with fact. K9: Interesting how?, I have seen Kelpies that wont herd sheep and ones that do, they are all Kelpies... K9: Are you seriously asking this? K9: I think you like to create theories in your head and then go about believing them. There are some sections here that you close and others your miles off. K9: why do we need to consider that, just train it. K9: Oh thanks I will be sure to write that down somewhere... K9: yep sure you are, I am sure you will get great results obliging him.

K9: A very driven pup with weak nerves will not chase it but run from it, so it has prey drive that is being masked by fear. K9: This simply means the dog triggers on moving prey, it is inexperienced to the extent that it does not belioeve it can generate avoidance in the prey, so it reacts rather than acts. In Ness example, the level of drive can not be determined by these examples, regardless of body language. K9: Reward history over genetics. K9: reward history over nerves.

K9: None of these hypotheticals indicate any level of drive they just identify different triggers based on reward history, yes? K9: yes that is more likely.

K9: Yes these are different degrees of prey drive, some the dog knows are mildly stimulating whilst others drive her over the top, you w=dont have to use drive to control this reponse but it is one way to re direct it.

K9: No its far from a dumb question, prey drive is the dogs desire to chase and capture, all dogs have a degree of prey drive, but some wont disply this for various reasons. How much you need is dependant on what you want to achieve. This article will help. Understanding drives

K9: lol we built the old site pre firefox days, I use FF too, so the new site had to work with all browsers.

K9: Hey there I am glad Onslow is doing well! He was a great boy and I am sure he is behaving himself well. I love to read the old testimonials too, they are a great read.

K9: Well that is funny because the website describes methods all through it but all you seem to care about is qualifications? K9: If you had any intentions of booking a consult those would be made available to you, but as you dont, they really are of no concern to you. K9: The testimonials are written by actual clients, some of them are on here so you can see that they are real, they describe the methods and results, these genuine comments unsolicited or guided by us are more important that me telling you when I got my first dog. Any time I start a workshop there is usually a run down on my history, maybe come to one and you will hear it. If you think that reading my website isnt enough to get you to call, thats fine with me. Anyone who walks into my consult room is faced with my qualifications for all to see.

K9: Well I will be selling handling skills at the workshop, lol. People can still email me if they arent sure of what they need, I can help you choose SK... K9: Good I will be calling you up! Lol, I emailed you last night at the old address ...and just then at the new one Can't wait for the SA workshop. I will be first in line for the 'handling skills' too