Steve K9Pro

K9: You cant or at least shouldnt try and switch off prey drive, it is an instinct that is part of the dogs genotype...

You can however communicate that your cats are not a trigger for prey drive, this may be escapating if your not doing anything with the dogs drive, leaving it unguided is a recipe for problem behaviour...

Hi,

Thanks for posting this, The program sounds like it has helped a lot of people.

Would you recommend starting this program on the first day you get your puppy (pup will be 8wks old).

Is it ok to do this inside as I am worried the pup will get cold outside and I want it to eat inside anyway?

If I want to clicker train my dog later on, should I start with the clicker instead of the "yes"? Or can I just use yes and then later condition the dog to the clicker?

K9: You can and should IMO start this day one with your dog, no matter how young and it can be done anywhere you can create the backtie and feed no problems.

I would use the verbal markers to start, then later on when it is taught, if you want to use a clicker, just merge it in, will be easy then.

Good luck and post back and let me know how you go.

K9: Well, I still had my SWAT boots on but I was on my tippy toes....

Hi Steve

it was a fantastic workshop and thanks to Ness and KHM for their efforts to have the day be very smooth and relaxed.

I have the Boston and my daughter has the black lab. we were talking on Sunday about wanting more work done with him and i explained to my daughter and her partner that you were in NSW.

K9: Ahh great to hear from you, the distance doesnt need to be a barrier, just have her email me on [email protected] as soon as possible and we can keep going.

Steve, what makes it more remarkable is that the black lab does not like men and he took to your energy and approach very well, surprising us all.

K9: Yes I did notice about ten minutes before when Frank walked by he showed avoidance but not when anotehr girl did, I sensed he had an issue with men, so I let out my femine side lol...

We were good mates in no time.

Look forward to hearing from her...

God and I thought I was impatient .

K9: Who said you werent? lol..

I have to say there is a real problem with attending dog training workshops and that is my level of dog training motivation always increases and my motivation to think about anything else for the next week or so always diminishes .

MRB we could always start out discussion here while waiting for Steve . I was going to start a so if we had to pick one take home message from the workshop what would it be discussion.

Any body else want to play .

K9: Ok ok! lol discussion has been started! I just opened it on Facebook...

K9: Once I get settled and some work out of the way, I am going to start a discussion on the K9 Pro Facebook page so the attendees from the workshop (and anyone else, everyone welcome) can join in a discussion and we can continue were we left off!

K9: So it will be a couple of days yet lol...

K9: Thanks Guys for all the kind words, it was a great week down in Adelaide for me, just back now and reading all the positive feedback. Your dogs behaviour at the workshop is a real credit to you! Was great to put names to faces too!

It was really interesting for me to work with the dogs in private consults and the practical training sessions of the workshop gave me a chance to show you a little of what I can do. Would have loved to follow on Sunday with some more advanced work, especially with Kynan and the black lab, I know a few more hours will really pay with those guys although I must say, Kynans mum has really stepped up with him since the consult only one day before, he has improved so much in so little time I also hope to hear from the lady who owned the black lab so I can keep him on the right track.

Finally working with Zuma and Kei was great, 2 of my training in drive Distance Learning Package students, they both made me extremly proud, I am sure everyone will agree! I would also like to thank them for demonstrating a little of the work they have put in.

Once I get settled and some work out of the way, I am going to start a discussion on the K9 Pro Facebook page so the attendees from the workshop (and anyone else, everyone welcome) can join in a discussion and we can continue were we left off!

You can find us here...

Finally some well deserved thanks to all who attended for making it possible for me to, being able to bring my work to Adelaide is great for us as well! Big thanks must go to those who provided the food, it was sensational and plentiful!

Also of course last but not least, we all owe thanks to Ness who organised the workshop from idea to implementation!

Great work guys! :D :D :D

I have a couple of clips on Youtube but I'm going red just thinking about posting them here - in fact I've taken the worst of my "crazy lady" impersonation's off (I told Steve I was going to enter them in Funniest Home Video's ).

K9: lol and we can share the winnings!

I'm happy to send PM of my Youtube channel if anyone wants to see Indi in action

Steve - "that one" I'm happy to leave there, but you have to admit there's some scary originals that should never be seen again :p

K9: Well the one where Indi has two dogs trying to distract her and your son calling her is GOLD given the ashort time you have been training,

I would not be red faced but proud as punch at that one! It Rocks! :cool: :D ;)

So glad to hear you are enjoying it!

You know we need to see some videos now don't you??

K9: lol I knew that was coming...

Rumour has it that there is a super video of Indi working in drive against very high distraction...

GSD: I thought I might give those who are interested an update on my decision to try K9 Pro's TID course

We have completed Module 1 and have now started Module 2 and we (Indi and I) are having a ball!!! I encourage anyone considering this course to contact Steve as he is "very" patient and explains TID so simply even a dummy like me can understand what's required :cool:

Even if you don't want anymore from this course than to simply have-a-go, you will find the bond with your dog will increase 10-fold. I would like to evenually compete with Indi in Obedience Trials however I found Indi had no enthusiasm in our regular one hour weekly classes (paddock bashing I think they call it :D ) after the first 10 minutes. My aim is basically to have Indi keen to work when I say those magic words "Are you ready" and so far it seems to be working

K9: Hey thanks for the feedback, Indi is doing really well and she looks like she is having a geat time!

LOL @ Paddock Bashing... ;)

K9: NB I am travelling from Nsw to SA to run a workshop and private consults. The terms and conditions on purchasing tickets are very clear, I cannot book flights and days off based on hope that people may come, I guarantee there is no professional that does.

We have been working with the OP to try resell this ticket for her, she is as I understand it very happy with the process. I can't see though how it has anything to do with you.

B: I have tried using your system, the issue I'm having though is that my Great Dane "Turkish" hates being on the lead. When I put him on the lead/rope his tail goes between his legs and he is very stand offish. I have skipped a few feeds to try and get him hungry but even then it doesn't seem to help, should I just feed him while his on the lead a few times to get him used to the lead. Thanks in advance.

K9: Hi Bevo, skipping meals or reducing food is one way to increase food drive, if your dog has a behaviour problem which is fear driven (which your dog may have), I would not recommend missing meals to "pressure" your dog past the fear of the leash. This program certainly can help you but I personally wouldnt use it as a "total" solution.

Let me know where you are and I may have someone I can refer you to.

K9: Dog training takes time, you can start by implementing the Triangle of Temptation, this is great for teaching what you need.

Another (no time consuming) option is a meal feeder, set it to feed dogs separate when perhaps your eating breakfast or showering.

Meal Feeder

Its ok K9 I'm only talking about the urge to get infront and the pulling - he's not anxious or stressed in that situation he is very excited - and distracted as you suggested above

THe corrections I am talking about are stopping immediately when he gets in front of my leg and turning him around - so its o.k I'm not beating him with a stick or anything!

K9: good as beating her with a stick would be abuse not training lol.

The corrections you are using are not corrections, it is not that the action would not be seen as a correction to some dogs, it just isnt being seen by your dog as training isnt progressing.

A correction is something that will reduce the likeliness of the behaviour occuring again, as the behaviour is repetitive, it isnt being corrected.

Your stopping could be adding frustration, which will increase the pulling.

K9: Lets also keep in mind that if your dog is stressed, frightened or anxious winding up corrections or supplying constant corrections isnt the way to go, it would just add pressure to an already pressured exprience...

I agree though that if you are applying constant corrections to a positively motivated dog without getting results there isnt any point continuing, you must look into why your not getting a decrease in that behaviour.

K9: glad it's sorted out, I know we have a lot of info to send out over the next few weeks.

I have a large, approximately 3 year old rescue dog which we adopted in January. His name is Digby.

I have a couple of queeries about his behaviour.

I have taught him to walk on a loose lead beside me when we go for walks - and he does this nicely on command unless we are walking with another dog!!! and then he is so determined to be in front! None of the techniques I used to teach him to walk nicely beside me when we are walking alone, seem to help at all in this situation.

About three nights a week I walk with my friend and her labrador. Digby thinks this is a really wonderful and enjoyable thing.

K9: As mentioned earlier, dogs doing this is common, it seems to me they are competing for an ever changing reward, the next tree, park or car to get in.

But the pulling is so bad (and he weighs 50 kgs) that the last few times I resorted to using a Head collar which has helped a lot. But I know Halti's are a very contraversial thing.

K9: Head Collars do give additional leverage, they also come with some risk to the dog and I personally dont find them to be a suitable training tool, we dont ever recommend them at K9 Pro, thats not to say that people have not gained results with them.

I have done a fair bit of testing in the last few months with some of the No pull harnesses, the test results are not complete just yet and they would never be recommended as a "training tool", but for the people with little skill, timing and co ordination, they can be of benefit.

So I would like to know what is going on - why does he seem to have a desperate urge to be in front in that situation?

And what would people suggest I do to fix it?

K9: I havent seen your dog but I would guess that he has not been trained under distraction to walk on a loose leash, he knows when it is just you and him but it sounds like distractions may have been just lumped in on a dog that is only in the foundation level of training. So I would be not walking with another dog just in front unless you want to train, then it will be about applying distraction in controlled measures and remaining in control of your dog.

my second queery:

When we are out on a walk and we come across another dog and are walking towards the other dog, Digby starts to stalk (kind of like a panther he crouches and creeps forward). When we get to the other dog he stops this and says hello in a friendly way, tail gently wagging and doind the usual sniffs

So I want to know why he does this stalking? Some people find it scary.

K9: No one can really tell you why this is happening withut seeing it happen, depending on his history, social structure etc, he could be quite comfortable and has learned this is the way we do it, or he could be crouching in fear or his breed history could mean he is gentically inclinded to behave this way, say if he was of a herding breed for example.

In any case, it sort of sounds like when walking up to meet people, you may be looking at him to see what he is going to do, this isnt ideal as it puts him in the lead position.

I would like to add that I or his foster carer have never seen him behave in a dog aggressive way. Thought I'd mention that incase its relevant

K9: the concern I guess is that he could certainly develop aggression out of this or bring aggression on himself as other dogs and people may not be too comfortable with his stalking...

If you have or can take some video, I would be happy to take a look for you, just email me on [email protected] and we will set it up.

K9: could be, it's a small pic. The comment was really using the ears as an example. Could have said docked tail too I guess.

A: I've got a few issues with this method, firstly the tie out part. In my opinion, to tie a dog and 'tease' it with food is just not on

K9: If you look at any method that uses drive be it a tug or food, something similar is used. Some dogs have little interest in food, the teasing is to indentify to them what the distraction is and to put them into a state of high energy in which they need to self control.

It is being implied that the food issue elevates the human to alpha status and although this is partially correct, this method is simply not something I consider or condone.

K9: It doesn't say anywhere that you have to consider or condone it, but if you read the many that have gained great results from it, perhaps your looking at it from the wrong point of view. It doesnt anywhere say that the food will raise your pack position, but teaching your dog that giving attention to the person when a reward is somewhere else sure helps that.

Our dogs from the earliest age are taught to sit and wait for their food.

K9: I guess this is done by holding the food where they cannot reach it? then having them sit? The giving them the food?

They are released (OK) to eat. Our fast eaters are held longer in the wait position with the food about six feet out front while they remain in a sit position. They watch to us for the release command and we alter it between a verbal OK and a finger snap.

All the dogs watch us during preparation or during the feeding process as the 7 shepherds are fed all together and loose in the yard and without incident. None of them have been tied up, fed alone to elicit a food drive behaviour and yet they all work when asked and respect us as alpha.

K9: Ok so the only difference "you see" is that tie out and the teasing?

I'm at a bit of a loss to understand why the average pet owner feels the need to 'train in drive' mainly because I think most do not fully understand the term.

K9: This is a step by step procedure so they dont need to understand any more to get the results, reading through the posts of those that have used it here will show you that.

If you prefer to call it training with a remote food reward, thats fine with me...

I beleive (and this is my opinion only) that the term is misused by most and that the results from someone believing they are training 'in drive' are in fact not much different than some good old fashioned training we used to do using common sense, years ago.

K9: Perhaps that is true, and perhaps it isnt...

I've trained in schutzhund, agility, obedience and tracking...all of which need a level of drive to succeed or to motivate a dog to work, however I never have used what is considered to be a specific 'in drive' method as I do not believe that there is really such a thing. Using various exercises to stimulate a dogs problem solving ability perhaps, but calling it 'drive training' is something I would never consider doing. It's simply common sense training.

K9: I guess every style of training once you know how to do it would be common sense training but that would mean we would all be doing something different, but calling it the same. I can see problems with that. It is just a descriptive term, I am far from the only one that uses it.

I find it such a shame that society has created a group of pet owners that need to be taught to be humans, and therefore superior (alpha) to their pets. I however would not condone this method as there is a fine line between being Alpha and to be honest, driving a dog bonkers.

K9: Ok but I dont think I am my program is responsible for that lol, also you said a few paragraphs up said that "and yet they all work when asked and respect us as alpha". Why do they need to see you as the Alpha?

I can confirm to you that not one has been driven "bonkers" just yet.

Question then, do you really beleive that the control of feeding mannerisms and the focus of a dog to either the food bowl or the human, creates a 'drive' in the dog that will continue after the meal is over?

K9: Drive will not but the exercises taught in the Triangle will, dogs are being taught to give attention in the face of distraction, learn self control and then many other OB exercises that do continue on through the dogs life. I have rehabbed many dogs that we use this as the corner stone of self control with great success also.

I'm sure this will spark a few flames my way, so be it....

K9: I am not sure why anyone would write a post that they know will start flaming and in case you havent noticed, YOUR flaming this program lol...

such a shame that it will happen simply because I disagree with a method.

K9: I think the shame is that, if you have thoughts about this method, you could simply ask questions, but instead you form an opinion and then attack the method.

I've trained a lot of dogs over the years, all of which have one issue or another. Food aggressives, non food motivated (to the point they would starve themselves as they have no interest in food at all) and yet I can say that on both sides of that pendulum swing, have ended up with excellant working/performing dogs.

K9: Ok, so have many here, so? I cannot see anywhere in which I have said "you must use this program or your dogs will not work/perform!"

The dogs here know who's boss be it at meal times or any other time, and didn't need to be segregated or tied up/restrained to get to that stage.

(flame away)

K9: Congratulations, but we dont have a list of the method you have used to critique do we? Perhaps I could watch what you do and find 1000 problems in it, but then your answer would be, it has worked for many dogs. Well I doubt you have owned as many dogs as have benefited from this program, so perhaps that is something to think about before you tell me what doesnt work or what isnt needed.

This version of the program is the basic first steps to implementing this in your home, whether it is applied to a rank driven dog or a submissive dog or overly excited dog that knows no rules or limitations, it works for all and it works very well.

When the owner has a years of experience or none, it still works.

If you went to an aggressive rank dog, stood there with the food bowl held high and ordered the dog to sit, this could turn out very bad for you, this wont happen with my method.

It isnt designed to show a dog who is boss, that can add conflict, it is designed to teach dogs and owners very valuable life skills, here are a just few: -

Impulse control without physical corrections

Understanding that trying to get the food/distraction/temptation with energy applied to the person holding it isnt the way to gain reward

Taking your attention off the distraction (food) and giving it to the person is the path to reward

Being on a tie out ends in reward

It teaches the dog owner and the dog basic marking and release skills

It also is set up so the new dog owner wont fail with a dog and the tie out helps this because: -

The dog is tied up, it cannot jump on the owner to get the food finally being reinforced for that behaviour.

The dog cannot attack the owner as in the case I mentioned above for the rank dog.

The dog cannot ignore the owner and just run to the food, resulting in behaviour reinforced that isnt a desirable behaviour.

Regardless of what the dog does, physical pressure isnt applied from the owner to the dog or from the dog to the owner.

The dog learns to break its own glance from the distraction and give it to the owner, which results in reward. Substitute the food for another "temptation" and we have noted a great improvement in the dogs behaviour around things that were previously highly distractive.

As for the issues with teasing the dog, if you have trained Schutzhund, I wonder how this was done without some form of teasing with a toy or by a helper?

If you think outside the box, you will see that there is no harm being done here and dont let me tell you, just read the results that others have gained using it. It is on other forums too, same results, I have been prescribing it to my behaviour clients for many years, same results, many breeders and trainers use it too, same results.

Those results can be described as, owners happy and rewarding their dogs and using communication, and a dog that is under "self control" and learns new exercises at feeding time and reinforces old ones.

One other benefit of this program is that it ensures owners actually train their dogs, every day, at least once, that is a benefit for many dogs and owners.

You dont have to like it Angelsun, I see in your avatar that you have a Dobe with cropped ears, many call that mutilation, but you must approve of it to display it? It is your dog and your choice I guess, right? Or maybe you would call it "common sense ear modification" lol.

I find it strange though that you have been a member since 2004 and this program was made a sticky in 2006, and you feel now is the time to attack it?

K9: Yep it sure was great, World Class, my view is here

K9: The ticket sales are open to the public now HERE

K9: yep they are sold out, were looking seriously at trying to add some more on the Thursday the 6th. Just have to make some changes here.

I am looking forward to coming, I sure will do my best.

Question - I have booked my place but have opted to pay by money order, which it said I have 48 hours to do. Do I definitely have a spot then, or not until I've actually paid? I'm just worried places may sell out in the next 48 hours before I have a chance to pay??? When I log in to my newly-created account, it says "This order is marked as Awaiting Payment" I do not want to miss out that's all Can pop a money order in the post tomorrow!

K9: Yep thats fine of course, the 48 hours is just to make sure people dont buy tickets and not pay for them or use them and we turn people away whilst trying to contact the original purchaser, as long as we hear from you within 48 hours (which we have they tell me) it is all good and your place is locked in.

C: Ok all is well, I emailed K9Pro (which is what I should have done in the first place - derr! ) and yes my spot is reserved

K9: Yep its all good, and if there are ever any questions, just send them through our email, we will answer any questions.

Also if anyone pays via paypal, there are no fee's we absorb those

K9: Yep thats true, tickets for workshop and private consults are on our website to our email list only.

This link will go live later on today to general public.

K9: midnight lol