Steve K9Pro

K9: Yes it is important not to use any correction, even verbal, the idea is for the dog to free shape the correct move, this proves to us he is invested in the program and helps us move forward. Give him some time to settle down, he will see the light bulb!

K9: There are a number of problems with electric fences that should be considered, one is that they are mostly designed to stop horses, so are designed to deter multi hundred kilo animals. Another is that the tape the animal touches uses the dogs central nervous system to complete the circuit to ground, the containment system doesnt do this. Another is that, outsiders can touch the tape, if they do in many cases you can be sued if they are zapped and finally no matter how many strands of tape you use, a dog that is aware that the tape causes the correction can jump over or dig under (avoid) the tape and then can escape just the same. Here is an article that can help...

K9: I would, place the foof further away, and when you walk back and stand by his right side, stand one pace back, and just wait until he gains some self control and shows some self control, reward this with the marker system and he will catch on...

K9: Thats great news Spottychick and I am always eager to hear how people are doing wide and far... It is quite common for dogs to copy one another (monkey see, moneky do lol). It is funny to watch pupplies here try and copy things the bigger dogs do and they are barely solid on their feet! Thanks for sharing...

K9: when adding people to teh TOT regime, it is best to ensure the dog is familiar with the routine before adding other people. In your situation, your puppy is perhaps a more rank (dominant) pup than may be desireable. K9: It is hard to guage the level of aggression the pup is displaying toward your girls, your pup is young also so this could be nothing or something quite serious. If your goal is to have a bomb proof dog, I would recommend that you consider having your pups temperament assessed by a behaviourist. Aggression is not an internet solved or diagnosed problem, this program is not a cure all either, it is a foundation program that can help reduce / resolve / prevent some common issues and heopl people devleop a communication system with their dogs.

K9: we use a couple of different types, take a look at our site our containment systems etc are at pretty good prices email us for details on [email protected]

K9: If your not competing then we use these, the edge is soft but durable, so they are easy on your dogs mouth and last....

K9: This is a little different from the OPs situation and most peoples situation of a leash pulling dog. If the dog knows how to pull on the leash the rules have been written previously. To rewrite the rules you may need to devalue the pulling by coupling removing the reinforcement for pulling and coupling that with a negative stimulus for pulling, in which I agree with SA that I dont think Head collars are good for this.

K9: Good point SA, although our tests are showing the FA harness can reduce pulling, I cannot see us ever prescribing it as a training tool.

K9: Yep so it is technique AND tool, rather than just tool...

K9: It is always worth remembering that a behaviour that is deep set and is habitual may not be extinguished by simple lack of reinforcement. The sauce bottle analogy is a good one but if you have ever seen a reformed smoker holding a pencil between their fingers years later you will know what I mean by habits that continue without reinforcement. In my tests too I have not observed the dogs not pulling (they still do have leash tension for some time), but just not pulling as much...

J: K9: There are a number of problems in doing that, one is that when you try a number of training methods or tools and fail, then "resort" to something, that something often is met with high resistance as the dog has known you to give up in the past, and waits for you to do it again. This in turn subjects the dog to a higher level of correction than is ideally neccessary, because you tried to do him a favour. Another is that, if people knew a way to train a dog to do something, there wouldnt need to be a resort, because the problem would have been solved. K9: If training a Loose Leash walk was the one and only brief, then it "may" be, but of there were other things that needed to be addressed then maybe not. I would like to mention though that, by no means are Halters and No Pull Harnesses purely positive by any standard. K9: It is a great ideal or mission statement, doesnt always benefit the dog though.

K9: wow she sounds well catered for then, Kongs can be a bit too hard for puppy teeth which is why we use Orbee's instead, but the Egg inside teh Bee should also be fine... K9: I would say that she is being reinforced some how to do this? the first step I would take is to stop doing this at all costs, I would also teach her that interacting with you wont ever happen by jumping up. You can develop a No Reward Marker within the TOT which indicates to the dog that it is not on the path to reward. Then when you see the pup doing something that it should not, give a NRM rather than start an exercise that will end ion reward, otherwise the pup will think that the naughty behaviour is (behaviour) chain that leads to reward.

K9: Yep it sure is, puppies are always learning something, we just have to make sure its what we want them to learn. K9: This is pretty normal for a pup, the chewing particularly when teething (and sometimes when not), good idea is to redirect this onto a suitable toy, something the pup can work over that is soft enough to chew on but wont be destroyed quickly. Our everlasting range are great for this. K9: Dogs can for sure learn that a way to begin interaction is to behave in a certain manner, your 100% right on that one...

K9: There are two differences: - 1. I have seen your dog 2. I would be supplying a technique that may include the use of a tool, not just a tool. K9: so do you get good results with the tool or the technique? Seems once you let the technique fall, the tool doesnt help?

K9: I think that too much focus is being put on lack of obedience in the OP's case, there are other issues other than lack of training going on here to simply try and address with training the loose leash walk. Lanabanana, I would not be trying to solve this problem by reading this or any other thread on here or reading a book either, I would be having a reputable behaviour specialist assess your dog and design a solution to the problem, including the leash pulling. No tool will fix this for you. For behaviour problems, you dont get endless chances at solving them, each failed attempt creates further resistance and a book will not diagnose what is actually happening with your dog. You cannot train a loose leash walk to a dog and then go about correcting the behavioural problem that may be driving the leash pulling, it doesnt work like that. You can "experiment" with clicker training, or read a book and give this a "try" yourself, or you can get some professional help and it will get better. Maybe somebody here is capable of diagnosing your dog over the internet and recommending a course of action that may work, I try not to give people what I think may work though. ******************************************* The other thing I have read is that when a tool is put up in this thread by someone, it seems that were trying to determine if the tool will cure all problems. Will the Halter work on handler aggressive dogs? Well that depends what is driving the aggression but it could help or in another case it could see the dog turn on you. Can you use one and gain success? Dont know, nor care, it wasnt designed for that and I wouldnt use one for that (I dont use them anyway). But if the halter or front attaching harness doesn't work in those circumstances, thats ok? I dont think there is a tool that is a "one tool cures all". If you have a dog that is handler aggressive, you use a muzzle to stop you being bit, not a halter or tools designed for other purposes. Stabilisation collars have been around for a long time, recently renamed dominant dog collars. They are used to stabilise a dog that has gone into high rank drive, where verbal communication has no effect and a stimulating correction, like one from a check chain, prong collar, martingale etc will often redirect the aggression onto the handler. The collar is tightened to restrict or block the air way of the dog momentarily so that the dog can reprioritise the situation and calm down. Do they work? yes they do, are they a desireable tool to recommend? No. My collar manufacturers make them for us, we supply them to trainers for extreme cases. I get sent many extreme cases that others will not work with from all over Australia and extreme cases call for extreme measures. When you see Ceasar Millan walking down the street with that very tight leash on dogs, he is using a leash with stabilisation collar built in, the dog cant pull because if does it cant breathe. I dont use these collars to teach a loose leash walk, I may use one to address rank drive that is manifesting into aggression. ********************************* I read the study (briefly) on the dogs not being stressed when lowering their heads, pawing at their face etc, and if the dogs are not stressed, why would they display these behaviours I wonder. Personally though, a dog being stressed when were trying to extinguish an undesirable behaviour isnt my highest priority, the stress is monitored and controlled though I am not trying to make sure this happens with zero stress, in fact I dont believe you can extinguish a learned behaviour with zero stress anyway. I do work with a couple of Canine Chiro's who have treated neck strains and injuries, not from dogs pulling so much on halters but lunging into them, these two guys run a practice and there are three major reasons why they dont write endless reports: - 1. They dont have the time. 2. It wont stop the company selling them. 3. They fear legal action from the manufacturers. I havent seen neck injuries occur but I have seen dogs bite their tongues, have their necks whipped around and their heads raked up by handlers when the dogs lunged. These three factors and some dogs very high aversion to wearing them have meant that I personally dont use or recommend them, but as I said, if a client turns up and their dog is wearing one and it is working for them, I dont try and re invent the wheel. ***************************** A few people have emailed me after I mentioned the front attaching harness, I can go on record here to say that: - I have not tested them on enough aggressive dogs to make a clear judgement on how helpful they are. I have got a number of front attaching harnesses of a few brands out with my equipment testers and I get written feedback every week. There are a couple that are showing reasonable success with no downsides (more on that below) Some considerations to think about though: - I have seen one dog that was highly aggressive try to get to another dog, the aggressive dog turned around and walked backwards, dragging the handler, the harness can not destabilse a dog that is not going forward... In all the cases that the harness has worked to reduce leash pulling, the same results could have been gained with as little as a martingale collar and some handler skill (not a lot, just a little). But as we all know, not every handler posses skill (or can be taught or wants to learn) and in those cases the two harnesses that have stood out as the best (so far) have worked reasonably well. If the test results stay the same, I will be recommending one of them to handlers who fall into those categories. Testing is done by us on items that have been improved or redesigned or are new on the market, I usually test it first and then if I think it may have merit, I have 12 volunteer equipment testers that have access to a variety of dogs and are dedicated to giving me unbiased feedback. Ten of the twelve are either instructors, qualified trainers of dog handlers, the other two are foster carers. We test the items free of charge and dont release brands that dont pass, but we may stock or use ones that do (this goes for anything dog really). For Black Bronson, I feel that if someone promoted themselves as a trainer but could only teach a Loose Leash by using a halter or no pull harness, I would think they need some training. I think these tools would be a crutch for a trainer with a poor method. I honestly do not believe for one moment that Aiden would need any of these tools to train a loose leash, nor Erny, Cosmolo or myself would, but we are faced often with people that really do want to correct certain problems and no amount of demonstration or help will get those results without these tools. It is a shame, but it is true. As for harnesses, you made a command on training bitework in harnesses, I have done a lot of this type of work and the harness used is an Agitation harness, designed to distribute the back tie pressure accross the dogs chest. The front attaching harnesses that these guys are talking about attach the leash snap in the middle of the dogs chest and the pressure is applied to the dogs opposing shoulder, destabilising the dog and giving leverage back to the handler. Practiced regularly enough, these can make walking without pulling habitual.

K9: Oh yep of course it is, in fact I think it happens most of the time rather than some times. K9: Yep agree 100%, unless the situation is turning dangerous I always come up with a workable solution to balance the dog and owner. As I said in my longer post, if you just berate people telling them about ideals, they just give up on the dog or give up on training. In an ideal world people would train their dogs before bad habits set in, but our world is often more RE ACTIVE than PRO ACTIVE, but I also do feel change coming on. Our bookings for people who are thinking of getting a dog are up last couple of years. People are booking training before they get the dog, have the baby and before problems set in, this is a real positive step.

K9: Well I guess the answer "should be", re educate, but as you know Cos, it isnt that easy to tell people what they dont want to hear...

K9: Starting from the original post... K9: So he knows the static heel position only. K9: Goes nuts? as in aggressive? excited? has this been diagnosed? Trying to overcome anxiety, fearfulness over over excitement with just leash training is going to be a long road. ***************************** There is also a heap of talk going back and fourth about maintenance and training tools, and which works best. I am not a fan of the head halter nor do I like the older no pull harnesses. We test equipment and I have tested every halter I could get my hands on and they are still not something I recommend. If we have a client turn up with one on their dog and they are having good results with it, then it can stay on. This doesnt happen very often though. In my opinion, the Halter has a couple of flaws that at this stage prevent me from recommending them: - 1. Dogs with nerve/anxiety/fear problems often display greater desgrees of these problems when their jaws and head restrained. 2. The dog can clearly see when it is wearing the halter, and when its not. 3. It is highly restrictive for sport work competition etc. 4. When the lead is pulled either by the handler or the dog, the jaw is pulled shut (on some models) and the dog can bite its tongue. 5. Some dogs loathe them, the halter obviously applies pressure to the nerves in the face and this turns the dog on. Yes they can get used to them in many cases, but this may take some time. 6. Dogs lunging in these can and have caused neck injuries and rubbing from the nose strap have caused hair loss, skin irritation and worse. 7. I also see a lot of dogs not learning to walk with zero tension on the leash but pulling to their tolerance level and eventually desensitize to this and pull more. This is a training issue I know but still does happen. I have in the last 3 months bought a stack of the newer no pull harnesses to test, some of them have shown some advantage but testing is far from complete, were not selling these or putting clients dogs in them as yet though. I never make a lifetime decision on a product that changesm this would limit progress, I will test and retest producst thatc ome out with changes and test them unbiased every time, were always looking for products that will help our clients. ***************************** There are a load of ways I can train a dog to Loose leash walk without training tools and just using a flat collar and communication, to more advanced tools like the remote collar and prong collar & I guarantee I can train 99% of dogs (that dont have major behavipour issues) to walk reliably on a loose leash with just a flat collar a leash and some time. Does it matter though what I can do? Clients come to us for results, not for me to show them what can be done with 20 plus years of experience. Can this be taught with a clicker? sure, with verbal markers? sure it can, but keep in mind that the majority of dog owners out there dont want to go through a few weeks of learning these techniques and will give up long before that. Is that right? nope but it is reality and berating people for not investing the time that "I" think they should just closes the door on the dog. ***************************** The dog should be taught to walk on a leash before it learns to pull, for sure but it would be less than 1% of people who do this effectively. It can be hard to get right. We include a lot of this in our puppy training and some of it in our Distance Learning Package for Raising a pup. It is a major problem when dogs arent taught impulse control, it can lead to aggression, lack of recall response, no focus and a difficult to train dog. Earlier you start, better your chances. ***************************** We have a lot of people do our Distance Package on Loose Leash Walking that do very well, a little better than 95% are todays figures, there are a small percentage of people that simple dont have the basic understanding and coordination to get this right, about 2% & there are a slightly larger percentage that dont follow the program as it is written in terms of distraction training, consistency and dedication. The 95% plus do this very well, Secret Kei is one of them actually! The small percentage that dont have what it takes to coordinate themselves may do well on some of these Anti Pull harnesses and they should use them too, use anything that works and is not cruel I say. The group that dont dedicate themselves to the programs and their dog, they wont be helped by any tool long term, the problem isnt in the dog or the tool. ***************************** Rarely too is the only problem a dog has leash pulling, there is often a lack of respect, poor bond, poor pack structure (often brought about by the leash pulling!) so it really isnt about who can pull hardest on the leash

K9: there are two common reasons this occurs, one is the the dog has no drive for your work, ie the dog is not invested. The second is that there is no clear communication marking the sit position.

K9: They dont start and end like say a calendar event but most times 2 - 4 weeks, with a peak at the 2/3 point. I dont do any socialising in this period because it can be too easy to cloud a dogs socialisation values when fear periods are having an influence, other than that there is not much else to worry about.

K9: If you mean the destroying your house, some thought provoking training can have some great effects, as can interactive toys etc. If you mean the fear period, it will pass pretty soon. K9: I would not be exposing your pup to anything new in this period. Too much to go wrong.

K9: Maybe that is another thing you need to look at... lol K9: No not really, but I wouldnt use it as a safe guard and feel safe that nothing can go wrong. Many dogs that come to see me for behaviour problems that have been life long problems were created in a fear period.

K9: Fear periods are very real and are quite well documented. I would not be taking my dog too many places when in a fear period, the chance to do long term temperament damage is high and there are no benefits to the risk. I dont reassure (coddle) fear responses from dogs, this can act as reinforcement and make the situation worse.

K9: we have them too, and we also do wholesale!