Steve K9Pro

And what about when you don't have these handy?

K9: what happens if you dont have the tug handy? do you just feed your arm to the dog?

Would it not make more sense to teach the dog to respect fingers and hands and not make the mistake?

K9: Yes absolutely, you may have missed my earlier post in this thread that identified why bites can happen, but the gloves are to use WHILST the dog is learning to target.

How about teaching the instigator of the tug or reward to not make the mistake of missing the target/handling the tug incorrectly etc which results in a nip?

K9: Mistakes happen, and when they do, protective clothing can be helpful and again, whilst handlers are learning to use a tug, these can be handy.

Putting protective clothing on (when not training sports like schutzhund), is a bandaid.

K9: lol no band aid is what you use after you havent worn gloves lol... but seriously it isnt, this may be another case of "I havent tried it but it wont work because". My 6 yo does that with some foods

Some new (and old) handlers start to add avoidant steps into their tug work as they have been bitten a few times, the dog cues off this and starts aiming at the hands, this of course is a handler error but again, it does happen and wont happen when the handler starts with gloves.

If you as a handler are not comfortable, you will expect to see more nips/pinches which is in fact not creating a good behaviour for the dog.

K9: Correct, and some people are not comfortable because they are getting bitten during the learning phase, this leads to more poor tug handling. The gloves often produce a more relaxed handler.

The dog MUST learn to respect hands and body parts, regardless of how high of a reward is offered.

K9: I dont think anyone is saying, "wear these gloves and then let the dog bite your hands" but when you work multiple dogs as I do, dogs that are not mine, dogs that are untrained and puppies, bites will happen until the dog is taught to target better, in the interim, gloves.

This goes along as well for those show dogs that snap at bait etc....it's not that hard to teach them how to respect fingers and stop snapping, just as it's not hard to teach dogs to not miss the toy reward. We are talking about the average owner, rewarding their dog with a tug or play remember!

K9: Are we? says who? if we are then it may not be easy for them to teach their dogs to accurately target. I would also suggest that, Aussienot, Jeff Jones, Erny and Cosmolo arent average owners teaching their pets tug games....

Important to remember that most handlers are not using the appropriate sized toy for the size of dog they are rewarding. That's HANDLER error and not the dogs.

K9: true, you will see in my post number 10 I have mentioned all of these things.

I would much rather teach the dog to respect my skin, than worry about whether I had my leather protective gloves on,

K9: maybe the dog will respect your skin better when you do?

or worse, have to say to the dog "sorry, I can't play with you, I forgot my gloves in the house."

K9: OMG go back to the house and get them? gee.... you could also still just work without them, just as you do now...

Protective clothes in any type of activity are smart, if I was using a grinder I could say "I would rather learn how to hold the grinder so it doesnt shoot crap in my eye" or just wear the glasses, all the arguments of "what happens if I leave my glasses at home" still are the same arent they? Put teh gloves in your gear bag with your tugs.

I have played tug with dogs for 20 years plus, I can train a dog not to touch my hands, yes it isnt hard, once trained the dog will not target my hands, but he can still make a mistake or so can I.

There are dogs that have learned to target the hands of the handler because it makes (or has made) the handler let go or react, these dogs need to be trained the rule that "you touch my hands the game ends". To teach them this, they have to touch your hands so that you may mark the event that you dont want to see.

Our industry needs to come out of the dark ages and take care of handlers and dogs, gloves do both.

But Angelsun, no one is asking you to wear any...

I have tested a load of gloves from a few different industries, the tight fitting, highly protective non restricting ones that have beefed up protection in the high risk zones of the hand, work realy well! Try some gloves, it wont hurt!

They sound very similar Corvus, could be the same, ours are cheaper than that though but I think they retail up there.

No worries easy done guys. I have pretty much testing these alone as my testers don't have high prey dogs, so would love your feedback.

What makes you think my dog isn't in drive? A big misconception that clicker training is akin to 'posting a letter' Click and reward can be food, tug or a game...whatever floats the dog's boat. I would hope that you understand that today's clicker training is all about having the dog fully engaged in the training game.

BD: I don't use training tools other than a clicker and food and toy rewards so yes I have used my 'tools' and I like them!!!! (as does my dog!)

K9: I like these tools too, I favour training in drive but it isnt always the best course for all dogs, wish it was though!

K9: sorry you missunderstood, I favour TID, which includes marker work, just can't be used to solve every problem with every dog.

When I was younger and tougher (ok dumber) I wouldn't have worn gloves, my hands show a hundred little scars from puppies and young dogs, this cold weather is a good reminder of what it feels like lol. I missplaced my hands heaps of times to test various gloves and they make a real good difference as they protect your hands and help you gripthe tug better.

Leather Jude, they are very comfortable too!

F: I used prong collars when riding a bike. My dog never pulled when I used prong collars, so there was no negative effects on her at all (IMO of course). How would harness prevent the dog from pulling you down?

K9: Thats a good question Felix, I would train the dog to not apply tension to the leash, perhaps using a prong collar, and then progress to a flat collar. I would then train the dog to run along next to the bike using the harness.

Once the dog is trained not to pull on the leash, this isnt hard.

That was the only way I wood ride a bike with her, cause I didn't want to be pulled under a car or something. And the leash was not attached to the bike, but was in my hand. That is the thing, she never, ever pulled when having a prong collar on her. And, if you just put it the other way around you could use it as any other martingale collar.

K9: Yep this is true, you can reverse the collar and it is like a chain mart ;)

Personally, I don't understand all the drama, they are used in Europe for ages with great success.

K9: Yep with you there!

A: That's OK, the only problem seems to be that you think I have a problem with prongs or that I think these problems are unique to prongs - absolutely not!

K9: No not at all, I really just answered the points that I needed to clarify for myself.

I was not making a case against prongs, I was responding to unsubstantiated misconceptions made about them. If someone had said "head collars are always benign" or "you can't hurt a dog on a flat collar" I would have responded in the same way.

K9: No drama at all mate, the beauty of dogs is that, there is no "always" lol.

In fact anyone reading this should know that I have a referral program which lists trainers and behaviourists I feel are helpful in areas I am not, Aidan is on that list as I support his work 100%

A: I wouldn't do it to a dog on a flat collar either, but I wouldn't pretend (as some others have) that I know what the dog is experiencing because I've put a prong around my thigh and given it a quick pop either!

K9: I guess the idea of popping it on peoples legs helps understand it doesnt have to be a high aversive, they look worse than they are / feel. No different to me (and I guess every e collar trainer) using the remote on people to demonstrate what the feel can or should be like.

A: It wasn't purely hypothetical, on p2 of this thread someone shared their opinion that prong collars do not cause pain and that they use one when riding with their dog.

K9: I havent done it, in their case they may be right? if the dog never applies tension on the leash, it wont be aversive, but for the reasons you stated, I would chose something else.

I've seen dog vocalise in their sleep. The condition was, taken in context, a strong correction on a prong collar. If it's pain, surprise, fear, or whatever - you put the collar on the dog you have to take responsibility for any distress you cause through misuse.

K9: Agree 100% there, it should always be part of the trainers assessment to address any stress in any training program.

If you are conditioned to believe that this distress is "just submission" or that it doesn't really exist then you make the sort of decisions that leads to abuse and causes people to want to ban prong collars. That's not good for anyone.

K9: Yeah true too, and I guess people these days are being commended for achieving "calm, submissive energy" lol

The actual effects of over-correction are not entirely predictable as you would know. Very mild corrections can cause anxiety if the dog does not feel that he can avoid the consequences. Nevertheless, over-correction has some unique problems that are difficult to return from and are hard to predict so we should avoid it where possible.

K9: In fact, correction of any type can have these effects, as someone mentioned, best to train them right first, rather than trying to correct mistakes, but hindsight is powerful in many...

K9: I have tried out a heap of different style gloves and ended up going for high flexibility and finger protection, fingers seem to cop it worst. I have settled on one with a rubber piece added to each finger and knuckle, it is about as much as protecting my hands as dogs and pups teeth.

They also have a piece of kevlar added in the webbing between the thumb and index finger, this is where I cop a lot of nips on inexperienced dogs on a tug toy.

K9: Just weighing in on this one, I use and recommend the use of L Tryptophan and B group vitamins when treating dogs with anxiety driven problems. There are a couple of guidelines I use that may be of help

1. I used to use Troy Behave paste, dont so much any more because I found about a third of dogs seemed to end up with an upset stomach and vomit, meaning that dose was missed. I have been using Calm and I notice the results are as good, if not better, without the dogs becoming nautious. (I still have about 30 dogs on Troy Behave as they are doing well with it, but about 100 on Calm)

2. For mild anxieties, such as mild storm phobias, dogs that become stressed during car travel etc, I think it is harmless to just use these products, but for dogs with more serious behaviour problems I dont. On a number of occasions I have seen the dog stop displaying the symptoms (reactivity for example) but the dog is just under the reactivity threshold, meaning no further treatment is offered but the dog was still in an anxious state. It isnt a cure, it is an aid and it should always be used in conjunction with a behaviour modification program that is moving with your dogs rehabilitation. I usually dont prescribe these supplements until the program is well and truly underway.

3. Even for the milder cases, "If symptoms persist, see a professional"...

A: and plenty of people give corrections strong enough to make a dog yelp while wearing a prong. There are even instructional materials out there that suggest things like "don't be put off if your dog yelps, that is when you know the correction has been effective because he is demonstrating submission" and other such patently ridiculous nonsense.

K9: This style of training though isnt restricted to prongs, but the style of training and force used.

Limits being set is a neccessity in all styles of training, if you dont limit the amount of food your treats your dogs gets, that can be harmful too.

A: With a prong collar they are merely uncomfortable at normal levels of correction, but it is a fine line between correction and over-correction - particularly if you are on a bike and one of you stops suddenly without choice.

K9: Maybe I use them differently Aidan, but I dont think the line is fine at all and the people I teach to use them arent over correcting (or correcting to the level of vocalisation or submission). I also dont hook them to bikes though

I think it is inaccurate to quote the over correction that happens if you hook a dog to a bike with a prong collar when any dog hooked to a bike with a solid connection and collar is going to be jerked horribly if the bike stops suddenly.

If I was to take a dog on a bike, I would be teaching the dog how to work with me, without a prong collar. If I was faced with a dog that was an insane puller, I would not be starting that dog on a bike until I trained some leash manners.

A: Just to be clear, I have not suggested chucking out the tool. I'm just suggesting we are realistic about what they do so that they can be used sensibly. The biggest risk to the legal status of these tools is people going around misusing them. Most people don't misuse tools because they are cruel people, they misuse tools because they have beliefs or conditioning related to the tool and it's effects on the animal. Legislation is to protect animals from abuse, not to protect them from legitimate users.

K9: I agree 100% with you on teaching people what tools do and how to use them, but when it comes to how laws are created, I think your off. The law in Vic is not based on any fact or abuse, speak to Erny on this one...

Legisltations and laws are created by Politicians, for Politicians.

It is true that Prong Collars are banned in Victoria, but they are legal averywhere else, silly to have one country with various rules meaning, you have to alter your dog training tool box when you cross the border.

Some people base the fact that they are illegal in Vic as a good enough reason to think Prong collars are always about cruelty, my argument is this: -

Prong collars are legal in all states except Victoria, Euthanising your dog is 100% legal in all states.

I would also like to say that I dont think buying any tool and giving it a shot is the right way to go about training your dog, in my experience this just about always ends up in the dog paying the price...

Just re reading this, sorry if it seems I singled you out Aidan, wasnt my intention.

A: It has also been said that prong collars don't "inflict any pain at all". It is not in the best interest of dogs and the people who own them to perpetuate myths like these.

K9: Absolutely, the same needs to be said for all tools, Head Halters, Harnesses etc.

Of course prong collars provide an aversive, this aversive is what makes the behaviour change. How much aversive should be the question though? and at what risk?

I think the remote electronic training collar is a great tool, I hated the first ones I was shown that had only recdiculously high levels...

You can hurt a dog on a prong collar, it simple, attach a fool to it.

BD: I don't use training tools other than a clicker and food and toy rewards so yes I have used my 'tools' and I like them!!!! (as does my dog!)

K9: I like these tools too, I favour training in drive but it isnt always the best course for all dogs, wish it was though!

A: I spent about half an hour observing thousands of dogs on the last RSPCA Million Paws Walk and there were very few dogs in head halters who appeared to be uncomfortable.

K9: I dont think that is a reliable test though, dogs in this environment would be likely highly distracted or in the presence of reward (other dogs / arousal / activity) so this is quite often enogh of a distraction to over come high level aversives or stress.

I have seen a dog hit by a car, broken leg, bone through skin, not 5 minutes later mount another dog being walked down the street I would say the broken leg would be quite an aversive, just not enough.

A: Put it on your neck, attach one end of a 6' leash to a post then run to the end of the leash.

K9: well that would be the attaching a fool part, I dont think I would run that test on a flat collar.

A: Imagine you are riding your bike and your dog goes around the wrong side of a pole at speed. It is not what you do in training that is the issue, but what might happen by accident.

K9: Imagine if your dog runs in front of your bike causing a fall, and you or your dog are injured? Regardless of the collar used, there is always risk.

The prong collar wasnt designed to be attached to a leash and that leash attached to a bike, or a 6 foot leash and send the dog running. This is simply missuse of the tool?

I would be running a wide strap harness and a springer bike attachment, because that would be the right tool for that activity, but the Springer and harness would be equally inapropriate for training a dog to walk on a loose leash as a prong is for attaching the dog to a bike...

A: When a dog yelps when being given a correction, you can safely assume that the dog is feeling pain,

K9: I am sure you have seen / heard a dog that has been startled vocalise Aidan? I am sure that I have heard a dog make noise without pain.

K9: Also just like to add that, no matter how much experience one has at playing tug with their dog, nips and bites do occur from time to time, it is par for the course.

I use gloves a lot now, we even have been working with a designer to make very tough yet flexible gloves for this work that go down to small mans and womans hand sizes and still provide good protection.

Were just waiting for these to arrive now.

K9: It is pretty common for dogs to accidently bite your hand, almost as common for them to bite your hand deliberatly too. There are a lot of reasons why both happen too: -

Some reasons for Accidental Bites

Poor tug handling/presentation by handler (most common)

Tug too small or too large (needs to be the correct size so dog learns to target)

Handler not teaching dog that teeth on skin ends game (after driove development has commenced)

Dog is tired and makes genuine error. (tug game went on too long)

Some reasons for Deliberate bites

It works (dog wins or has won before)

Tug game has gone on too long or too much repetition (dog is driven to tug but tired also so bites to end the game)

Dog mouths handler at other times (so thinks it may work here too)

Dog may be showing Rank or Dominance (this is normally displayed as a dog that bites your arm, nit your hand instead of the tug)

K9: Oh are you working with Jane? Stick with her she is very good. We work together on cases a lot too, so I will surely help along if either of you need it.

She is 16 weeks. She was gaining too much weight and looking a bit round (to put it nicely) on the recommended amount. She is a lab puppy and gets 1.5 cups of dry a day (plus a few treats here and there )

Her trainer said I should feed less to her as she was chubby and was doing lots of poos during the day.

K9: Ok if your person there says its ok, then thats fine, I just didnt want you to reduce food to fix the release problem. (I would also be feeding the same bulk amount but less protein, as a puppy thats hungry can be, loud. )

Thanks I will try some of your suggestions.

Otherwise she is doing very well, when I feed her at work people always comment about how good she is and how much self control she has for a puppy

K9: Great to hear!

Thank you everyone for your positive input. I really wasn't sure I should post thismorning for fear of being shredded, but I am very glad now that I did.

Steve, I think you are really spot on in your assesment and this is the first time I have felt that the person I'm talking to has really 'got' what I am talking about.

I will pop over to your website to take a look at your distance programs. Thank you!

K9: No problems, take a look at my last post of recommendations, I may not only tackle this with a distance program though, might get someone up your way to take a look at your dog too.

You dont get too many chances at sorting a behaviour or dog and I am sure patience may be running out with Hubby, so lets get it right this time...

You probably have a stunning animal under these behaviours...

Picture a dog or a person that hasnt been fed for a week, and every time they reach for a piece of food, you slap their hand, can you see why they will come up with another way to get food? Or maybe try and grab the food faster? The initial problem (hunger) hasnt been dealt with

Yep, makes a lot of sense. So how to deal with the initial problem? By satisfying it? Taking him herding or lure coursing? Or will that just reinforce the chase and make him want to do it more?

K9: It is probably stepping outside what I can do with any effectiveness over the internet, I did read that your working with a behaviourist, it is very hard for your current behaviourist to help you if you add things from others too.

My advise to you would be to: -

Make a decision on if your staying with your current specialist or moving on.

If you are moving on, you can email me and I may have someone near you that can help you get a grip on the problem.

Training in drive can be undertaken combined with the e collar too, you just have to be using a very low stim method that is built into the program.

I would suspect that there are other aspects of the dogs lifestyle that need to be addressed, for example I would be making sure that no attention / affection would ever be paid to this dog for hyper activity and I would be using programs like the NILIF and the TOT to help the dog learn some impulse control.

The only place this dog would be rewarded for hyperactivity would be in my drive program for my reward.

This is just how I would look at this problem, there are I am sure other ways.

K9: Yep Aidan is right, I dont know anything about Sue but if I am stuck with a dog with high values to something like dogs, sometimes rather than correct it out I think its better to take ownership of that reward (the dogs) and sell the play time with dogs to your dog, for calm behaviour.

It isnt perfect but it is effective. This can at times take corrections to get a handle on.

I would also be running a drive program on thsi dog to gain good value for a reward you can control, prey item or food even, and then deploy the dog into agility to earn that reward...

I am having trouble now with the "ok"/release command.

My puppy sits automatically but when I say ok she just keeps staring at me, I have to physically point to the food and get her to take it. Sometimes I have said OK four of five times before she will take it??? When she does eat, she gobbles it all down, so she is hungry/ wanting the food.

K9: If you havent before used a free or release command, your body language could be saying no whilst your mouth is saying yes (ok lol).

So make sure she he ready, sitting and paying attention, when yiur ready to release, give an enthusiastic ok command and at the same time, take a running step forward toward the food. This should break her from the sit, by all means use your hand to point also.

When you are having a clean release, fade out the step forward, then the hand signal and be left with the verbal release.

I ahve tried moving the food closer, This happens even if the food is only 1cm from her body.

So I'm thinking there is a drive problem? ie. she is not in drive?

K9: Maybe not but maybe too, I think she is feeling pressure to not leave the sit position.

ETA: She gets hyper/excited when she see me bringing the food out, but as soon as I put it down, she just sits and stares at me.

I am already feeding her below the recommended guidelines for pups of her age by about 1/4 of a cup less than recommended.

She gets one of her meals (dry food) as training rewards throughout the day, so perhaps this is why the food drive is not as high?

K9: Ok how old is she? I would not reduce a pups meal by too much on a regular basis.

K9: Ok, at times your general obedience is more about rewarding calmness than satisfying drive, this leaves you with a dog that can be well trained at training, but triggers on movement everywhere else. In other words, the training isnt providing him the stimulation he needs to feel balanced.

Yes yes yes, That is exactly what he is like!

K9: yes I see a lot of dogs labelled "troublesome" that are exactly this way. We use drive these days as a very powerfuol therapy to relax the dog and balance drive.

I would say that he may have a socilaisation problem (IMO) his value for dogs may be too high, (ignores you) and his behaviour may also need correction, with the e collar or prong, which ever you decide, but I persoanlly would be looking at the cause rather than focus on the undesireable behaviour and simply trying to correct that out.

Aren you saying his value on dogs is the cause, and how do I go about changing that?

K9: Ideally you dont create it in the first place, I have a thread here called Socialisation and Neutralisation that will help understand this, but you can create a trigger that pays better than dogs and devalue the dog trigger this way (possibly with some supression {correction})

Also, are you keeping in mind other dogs are the main trigger for his behaviour but he is also very aroused by other things too - anything he thinks he might be able to chase (Typical working dog)

K9: Yes the triggers can even be none specific, like dogs cats but generally movement or at times reaction.

I did 100% expect to have to do a fair bit of work to ensure he didn't herd kids or bikes, but I obviously haven't done enough or the right things. He still chases the kids when they are moving very fast but very rarely collides with them, or jumps on them anymore.

K9: Picture a dog or a person that hasnt been fed for a week, and every time they reach for a piece of food, you slap their hand, can you see why they will come up with another way to get food? Or maybe try and grab the food faster? The initial problem (hunger) hasnt been dealt with.

At the moment only obedience. We start agility the first week of august.

If you mean do I train him in drive etc. then I'm not sure. Baisically I show him something he wants (food, tug, ball) and he gets it when he displays the behaviour I want. I start by luring the behaviour, use ýes' as a marker then fade the lure when he's got it, but keep the reward available but give it less often.

K9: Ok, at times your general obedience is more about rewarding calmness than satisfying drive, this leaves you with a dog that can be well trained at training, but triggers on movement everywhere else. In other words, the training isnt providing him the stimulation he needs to feel balanced.

I would say that he may have a socilaisation problem (IMO) his value for dogs may be too high, (ignores you) and his behaviour may also need correction, with the e collar or prong, which ever you decide, but I persoanlly would be looking at the cause rather than focus on the undesireable behaviour and simply trying to correct that out.

When this has been done I find that the problem you have may not go away or it might, but a new problem replaces it.

K9: I am a big fan of the e collar as most people know here, prong collar too in the right circumstances, but in all honesty (and maybe its the way I am reading this thread) I would not be using supression (correctons) on this dog at this point.

It seems the arousal (drive) your dog has is his problem, and this is a pretty common occurance with your higher drive dogs. Corrections / aversives do reduce drive if delivered correctly and at the correct level to match the drive being displayed.

If he is going into a huge amount of drive, he may need quite a correction, one you may not be willing or able to deliver at all times, which will mean as Aidan said, the problem will escalate.

The other problem with trying to correct out this behaviour, is that it leaves no where for your dog to vent his drive pressure.

What type of training do you do?

K9: that's not all that uncommon really, I hope they fixed it for you, it is simple enough. Email me if not and I will give you the steps.