Steve K9Pro

Sure you can Tapua!

K9: Thanks Wobbly, glad Jarrah is going so well.

It is true that when a dog wants to do something, they do it well, so if we can make our goals align with theirs it all goes well!

Ideally the flirt pole is great for establishing drive, then you take it to using a tug and you can then reinforce behaviours etc. this is then training in drive which is a whole concept.

If you play with the flirt pole then your dog can channel or let's call it "spend" it's prey drive that way.

You will get a more settled dog as you will be balancing out drive.

It really depends what you want to achieve, the flirt pole can be used as simply as spinning around, this is great fun and great physical and mental exercise for your dog.

It can be a lot more than that as well, it can be used to develop drive in your dog which can be a powerful motivator.

If you want to take to that level, one common mistake people use is to move and spin to get their dog into drive. The dog ends up chasing a flying and bouncing object.

That can make things tricky later on, a really great way to use the flirt pole is to allow the flirt to fall on the ground and remain still. Encourage your dog to get it and when your dog moves toward the flirt, then jerk it away.

What you will be doing is teaching your dog to generate a reaction in the prey rather than the prey generating a reaction in your dog.

This has huge benefits over a dog that is reacting to movement (for obvious reasons).

Try always play on level soft surfaces such as grass or sand, concrete, pavers, tiles etc are all dangerous.

You also should run this in repetitions rather than constant chasing.

So a game may have 5 or so 30 second repetitions and always finish before your dog is fatigued and you will get a stronger game each time you play!

I have used remote collars to train many deaf and blind dogs. Many remote collars have vibration or pager mode but commonly they have no way of adjusting the intensity if the vibration.

This in turn frightens many dogs and renders the vibration mode useless to train a "signal" as it generates avoidance.

When we use a modern remote collar we have levels so low, we can teach the dog to look at us when it receives the "signal".

The signal is the remote collar stimulation set at the level the dog can just perceive. There is no pain, fear or avoidance generated at this low level.

When a deaf dog receives this signal I want the dog to look at me and I can then give hand signals for the rest of the training.

Blind dogs I use it to teach a stop, this allows me to stop them bumping into things they can't see.

We also have a unit now that has adjustable vibration and no e stim for those who prefer it.

There is no need to feel that this needs to be an aversive method, instead it's effective and reliable.

It's not a specific day each week if you don't want it to be, we have a lot of flexibility in the program as Boystown are very pro active in helping their kids, they bend over backwards and do a great job.

We have a young German Shepherd in the program so too young isn't a problem, unlike other therapy programs we wont just be reading, there will be kids reading training sheets to handlers, outside play etc, it is very flexible.

Juice maximum is once per week from about 4 pm for 30 - 40 minutes. We provide crates, harnesses etc and why would they be scared? :) not al all you would be perfect for this!

We are using the NILIF and Cesar Millan methods with our 11 week old Rhodesian Ridgeback. She is very reluctant to make eye contact for permission and doesn't seem to get the connection to the reward when she does.

I would like some more information about implementing training with a pup, as much of the information I can find seems to be focused on older dogs. Or am I expecting too much?

K9: Hi Jo, sorry just got your PM.

Some dogs (& this can be more prevalent in certain breeds) are avoidant of eye contact, they can see it as either challenging you or you challenging them.

My TOT program can certainly help with this, if your pup is getting to excited for the food and bouncing at the end of the leash, remember that if you don't tackle this now, a grown RR will not be nice to walk on the leash if he doesn't learn early to respect the leash and not just become opposing to leash tension.

Perhaps fit a harness to him and have a helper hold and calm him when the food comes out, keep in mind that this will be teaching self control, and what you have reported is that your dog cannot self control.

The TOT will give you a plan to teach this each time you feed your dog that will help with the eye contact, self control and relationship.

If you don't think it is for you, you could also go to a hand feed regime, so choose what you would be feeding for the day in the morning and separate that into 3 - 5 bags, then you will have those opportunities to play with your dog and pay for interaction with food.

I wrote a program a few years ago called the Behavioural Interrupter, it is a free down load on our site. It is here...

I thought I gave you my answer right there. Of course we all need to practice recalls. And I don't always use jackpots for recalls. Only good recalls. And I do use them for other behaviours, but only when it was a damn good job. Or if I'm training something new and they suddenly get it. I just figure it's not a jackpot if you do it every time.

K9: so it seems that you do use jackpots quite often then, good recalls, damn goods jobs and new things, so I am lost at why you said "Jackpots don't have much empirical support. I don't really use them much, so don't ask me."

Oh, they respond to jackpots. Probably. I'm just wary of jumping to the conclusion that they are effective given there's not much support for their use. I'm not exactly sure what you mean by "no drive left for the exercise". My dogs don't seem to get tired of doing anything. I don't really drill them. We do a handful of reps, mix it up with some other things, then take a recess. I've trained for 40 minutes straight with no recesses and they still don't seem to get tired of anything. I'm careful with stays, though. Don't want to test it.

K9: I have trouble keeping up with your posts to be honest, in one post you say you are more interested in doing more reps, the next you say you don't over practice things. I wonder if you actually know what you do lol

K9: Just on another topic, do you find that the "problem" of your dogs not wanting to leave you as they expect to hear a cue all the time produces dogs with no off switch, dogs that need constant attention and to be walked and exercised excessively to quench their desire for reward?

No.

S: Are you sure lol, my mistake then, I thought in the 9 - 5 thread you wrote they took a lot of exercise to keep balanced.

I wont add any more, you seem to change the playing field as you go :)

They're dogs, not robots! Find me a person that doesn't think they need a recall and I'll show you someone who is courting disaster.

K9: I didn't say people don't need a recall, I was merely pointing out above you say you cant get your dogs to leave you then you went on about a reward system that you only use for the recall.

Jackpots don't have much empirical support. I don't really use them much, so don't ask me.

K9: I think they will have as much value as you condition them too.

Bob Bailey says he only uses them for a brilliant leap forwards. I just know when I make a big fuss, and it's rarely. Doesn't seem to concern my dogs, and if I don't have to sit there having parties I won't.

K9: Having a party with my dogs isn't a problem for me, I actually enjoy rewarding them at that level.

I'd far rather spend that time getting more reps and a ripping reward rate.

K9: perhaps you have trouble getting your dogs to respond to jackpots because you run so many reps there is no drive left for the exercise, only for the constant reinforcement.

Now there's something that makes dogs pay attention. I was talking to an assistance dog trainer on the weekend who told me one of the dogs I've had in my study who was struggling with the kennel environment had come forward in leaps and bounds when she started making a huge fuss when he got something right. I found the same thing with Kivi in the beginning, and I had another dog in my study that was similar. All three dogs seemed to be lacking in confidence, so there's certainly a precedent to use it more often, although I'd still make it contingent on good performance in those cases. Pretty arbitrary, though. Jackpots are thought to improve motivation, but not performance if I remember correctly. They're also associated with scalloping. You can use that to your advantage if you want temporary downtime for some reason.

K9: Just on another topic, do you find that the "problem" of your dogs not wanting to leave you as they expect to hear a cue all the time produces dogs with no off switch, dogs that need constant attention and to be walked and exercised excessively to quench their desire for reward?

I find that if you don't teach a dog when to predict engagement, ie after a cue, then any time they desire reward they will try and engage with you and this can be a lot with some dogs.

K9: I have to ask Corvus, why do you need a recall when your dogs won't leave you?

Why reserve "reward experiences" for a recall you don't need? If you want surprise and contrast should the experience then be placed randomly?

K9: Megan is talking about the Behavioural Interrupter, which you have, sent it to you on the 24/5.

Hmm, if you don't have a view of my you seemed to come up with prong collar and e collar reference fast.

No PM could have been talking about anyone, after the edit lol.

Glad trainers in wa working for you, pop some video up, live to see.

Hope you enjoy the ebook :)

I'm glad to hear that, and perhaps 'pushed' was too strong a word from PM's description reading it back, so I apologise.

K9: No problem, no hard feelings here.

Perhaps it's a cultural thing. In WA it seems pretty common for clients to pick and choose their trainers based on the use of equipment like shock collars and prongs.

K9: I don't think it is too much different here or anywhere, but in the end I think tool and method preference gets over taken by results when peoples backs are against the wall with a difficult dog.

Very often I give people a number of other things to try before recommend a bark collar, but some people are incapable of those things, some don't have the time and some aren't given the time by neighbors / council etc. so measures that bring some relief fast are needed rather than saying "I cant help."

It is funny that you mention prongs and e collars (shock collar is a term that is inaccurate), as I don't use any of these tools in my "training", sure they may be part of some of the behavior work, but that is more dependent on the client, their needs, abilities, time frames and level of motivation they have left, rather than the dog. But at least I am open and honest, there are no secret tools hidden here, all are shown and explained with professionalism and I chose to recommend them where I feel they may be the best solution at that time on that dog with that person.

I don't know who Poppy's mum is, I am hopeless with DOL names lol, as you see I use my company name, but I don't think I have said to a single client ever, "you have no choice this is the only way", regarding anything, never mind a bark collar.

If I knew who you were PM I could look up the file, but I would never discuss your case publicly, it is against our business practice to disclose client details.

W: These aren't value-neutral tools in a lot of people's minds. PM made a choice about what methods were right for her and her dog and it made me uncomfortable to see her get lol'ed for it.

K9: No tool is neutral really, if it were it would never be used, they all have to be chosen with some motivation.

I didn't laugh, that was Huski, but she does work for us and is very passionate about her work, she see's the dogs I train for competition, working careers and rehab cases and knows how much I focus on the dogs and clients needs, probably the reason for the sarcasm.

It seems though that you have a clouded view of what I do, I invite you to take a look at an eBook I wrote a little while ago, it is available on our website free. This will give you more insight to my thoughts on "training".

It is only short and the reviews were getting back say it is a good but short read, let me know your thoughts.

It is here.

Hope you enjoy it :)

Weasels I am unsure how you know what I "pushed". The dog may or may not have met the criteria where a bark collar was suggested. The criteria professionals use is based in risk to all parties, time frames and clients description of the problem.

I can assure you that no one who comes to me is "pushed" in any way to do anything or use anything.

Yes well Maree, wasn't spelling was it? Lol bet me? Lol

Not sure where your going but, let's say you want your trainer to help you achieve a certain goal, they may be going for a lesser pressured leash program for a reason.

F11

How bout no pressure?

K9: or no pressure, perhaps you missed the part where I said "may be"? I don't know, it isn't me.

(walk the dog round and round in circles (pivoting around you) until the dog looks at you, then continue heeling until the dog starts pulling again OR stand perfectly still until the dog looks at you, then continue heeling until the dog starts pulling again)

We were given the circle work option as opposed to the standing still option, and were told that it could take up to 20mins to gain the dogs attention...

Those methods did not work for my dog- in fact it was down right embarrassing!

K9: Well it sounds like this person had as much idea as you then, perhaps you should switch :)

Not sure where your going but, let's say you want your trainer to help you achieve a certain goal, they may be going for a lesser pressured leash program for a reason.

It's always funny to read people saying that training a dog to walk on a loose leash is easy, and then when I see their dogs they must have forgot to train it lol

You win, when I temp tested this litter I needed a transfusion :laugh:

Raise again...

Super dog in the making...

For the person who PMd me, see, he can fly... lol

K9: As for Pax's dog, I doubt he would cut his feet going up there, he would just fly up in a single bound lol and I can vouch for Prix, he is one super dog...

Mace:

I would naturally assume with recommended lists be it dog trainers to insurance company panel beaters, that those recommended would follow and share particular protocols and concepts to be on that list, in other words, I would naturally assume that the trainers on you list Steve would use and support your methods and tools effectively. I wouldn't expect for example, Aidan being on your recommended list to tell me he didn't support the use of prong collars or wasn't experienced in using them when you do for example?

K9: I see what you mean, but using prong collars isn't my policy, I just will use them if need be. I have a list of recommended trainers because we get emails from people in various states in need of help, having someone we can point them too is helpful for them. It isn't much more than that

The criteria is, if I know the person, or respect their work, or have worked with them, or have seen the dogs they have worked with and thought they were good at their job, they can be listed. There is no charge for us to list them on our site nor do we get anything from it other than satisfaction of helping someone out of our reach.

If it started to produce problems, well I guess would have to reconsider it and maybe set some guidelines, but so far all I have heard are happy people when they have chosen someone from the list we have.

Mace

Isn't Aidan a K9Pro outlet in Tassie, that's why I asked the question? I have seen some excellent results Steve Courtney has produced taking management tools to the next level using a prong to train desired leash behaviour with dogs formally on harnesses and head collars?

K9: Thanks for the kind words Mace, Aidan isn't a K9 Pro outlet, he is on our recommended list though. We don't have any other outlets bar the one in Kurrajong NSW.