Akayla

My first thoughts were also in regards to the previous dog. To explain I have a bitch who acted dominant and that is what i thought she was and progressing. Then one day someone said to me she is anxious. Now I do think she has dominant tendancies but when she is agrressive it is most likely to be in relation to a dog fight a while ago. Your dominant male may be feeling anxious about the newer pups rising place. Pups kind of live outside this but at his age he is sexually maturing now and his behaviour will change (although hopefully through desexing not quite so much). This may make your dominant dog feel insecure of their place. Looking at it that way has helped me understand my bitch better - not aggression exactly but anxiety. Oh and if your male was what some refer to as a "true" alpha he would not fight a young dog like that for dominance because he would be very confident. The fact that his hackles rise when confronting a new dog says he is unsure to start with. An alpha would not do this without cause form the other dog. It really does sound to me as though your dog is anxious about his postion and well being. Given the history with the other dog I find it highly likely. HOWEVER If you see a good behaviourist, at the least a behavioural trainer (not just a regular trainer) they should be able to see this. I also think K9 pro is great I hope this little insight is helpful and like me helps you to better understand where he might be coming from. We tend to just be angry with aggressive behaviour but if you see it as insecurity and train against that you may make a great deal of progress.

Me Im interested. Dont know what I can do but Im sure I can help some how. Plus would be good to catch up again

Anyone listen to the audio interview rather than just read text? I think you can quite easily gather his meaning and it is just a general reference that it could have been another breed. I also think the interview I heard on the radio was also longer.

I can see what your saying Lo Pan but I think handlers do take responsibilty (most of the time) for their K9 partner. If they didnt they wouldnt show such caution in the first place. Im not totally sure about the bite thing I think after a certain point it drives you to switch from fight to another option. However I dont really like the comments that the dog should have bitten harder but I dont take them seriously. I think the dog did what it had to and the fact it got hurt and so did the guy is just sad all round. For far to many reasons to type here

And thinking of them as being trained to attack doesnt really fit either. Most dogs are trained to do something very specific as a game or to only react when the handler themselves is threatened. The only one I can think of that might come close and they are still tained to "hold" not attack. They are very different things. There has been a huge shift in the way these dogs and others are trained. Of course there are plenty of people training guard dogs, personal protection ect that just train however they want to. I also agree that its not the handlers fault (although Im sure they feel some responsibility) - its the people that create the need for the dogs. Not saying that will ever go away but they dont get away without some blame.

Dogs in attack roles still save lives Lo Pan Sometimes they get hurt but trust me the handlers are the most upset over this and do their best usually to keep the dog safe as possible.

Thanks

Hello fellow show people Just filling out the show entries. Really really stupid question. I co - own Blaez so when they ask for owners details on that Ozentries site I do like breeders name/my name? Does that sound right? Its been so long since I have shown anything.

Oooo then you should have seen the beautiful GSD pup that i slowed down for.

My Face book update last week said something like you know you are a bit crazy when you pass a nice dog while driving so you slow down to see and the owner catches you looking or something like that anyway. Its so hard to be sneaky and catch a peak at the neighbourhood dogs when you are driving a car!

Its my understanding that males and females have a seperate order so usually you wont see alot of the issues involved with keeping same sex dogs. Second the females tend to seem to be the "boss" BUT only over particular things - the males having a slightly different value on items. Thus there is an alpha female, alpha male ect as an effective pair. It would be no good to have the two Alphas competeing for supreme Also as others have said an Alpha doesnt neccisarily mean fighting - they 90% of the time simply use body language. I had an intresting discussion once with an Ethologist about the second down who is often prone to be more violent in chastising others. This animal rarely makes it to the number 1 position. "wannabe" alphas we called them There is also the theory that they are born with the position. So an Alpha is born to be an Alpha, the omega is born to that position too - so with that theory yes it would be possible to won two dogs born to the same position given that pets are rarely from the same litter. But I would say untill you added a same sex dog (which I wouldnt recommend :laugh) its hard to tell the exact position your dogs hold because at the moment they can both be in the Alpha role.

Yes please :D Its worth a try.

I cant see the Gunning one? I must be looking at not the greatest list :D

Yes Im in Canberra. Yass sounds good! Also thinking about wollongong.

ARgh can I join this thread Im already off to a terrible start! Sent away an entry to the local show - it never got there and it wouldnt matter anyway cause I sent it to the wrong place! :D Im doing well so far :D Now Im just trying to find a show not too far away thats on soonish that I can still enter! If anyone has any suggestions please HELP! ETA: sorry should mention Im showing a little Lappie boy

sure sure it did. You just want all the fun to yourselves Oooo scones!

Bugger I only made it to page 2! I always miss these things!

Oh no Armahani! Well I hope Snowflake finds and even better home anyway She could always come live with me in the meantime

I was just playing. No for sure there are breeders out there who breed what they require to do the work. I mean thats how alot of breeds got started. Ive not tried hunting with a GSD but the idea of a GSD is that it can do everything well. Not the best but well. They are not bred just as guardians but as "all rounders". Though they are highly prized still as that sort of worker mostly I believe because of the dogs drive to please, protectiveness and the general appearance. They also can heard ect and I have no doubt with their scenting capabilities could be used in some form of hunting. But Ive never tried it or put in the long hours to find the rights dogs, lines ect to train.

I believe the point with Pure breds is that you may have dodged the problems you incurred. You havent given specifics so please dont see this as an attack but just some friendly discussion. 1) May have died from an illness that was handed down by the unknown parents. 2) Aggression and anxiety can be inherited from the parents and sometimes will not show till they are well and truelly an adult (particuarly when they go through puberty). 3)Again health issues of all sorts can be inherited. Its why breeders screen their stock and usually as they become an adult when things often become obvious. Dogs that mate just because often do so young when they themselves appear healthy aswell. I guess Id be wary given your children of adopting a puppy. There really just is NO way to tell that these problems and others wont appear at adulthood. However you can socialise a puppy the way you want. If you went through a good rescue that did good temperament tests I would think you would have better luck with adults. You can get pure breds from rescues. More likely as an adult but there are still plenty out there looking for homes. If it were me Id get a pure bred just because although its true things can go wrong also you can "pick" what the dog will be like with your family and you will know the chances of inherited diseases is reduced. Only because you have young children who have already had a negative experience with a dog and I wouldnt want that to happen a second time. My advice is to really REALLY look hard and as you said there is no rush. Im sure you will find something

Unless the breed is designed to be an all rounder

Awwwwwwwwwwwwww! I want at least three of them ok Armahani

Dont forget that even with really well bred lines there will still be different personalities in a litter. A good breeder will plave the quieter ones with the families and the more out going with work or sport ect.

The Schutzhund testing routine is not the only way that a GSD can be evaluated for type and correctness I agree Shadow Walker, I believe in that statement you are correct. Most if not all of the Australian service/police and security dogs are not Schutzhund titled which accounts for most of the service dogs overseas also. Schutzhund as a testing process does provide multi tasking phases that when used as a test, does evaluate a dogs strengths, weaknesess and correctness fairly quickly. It provides a uniformity in procedure where external tests may result in incorrect overall assessment. Tests set by individuals will vary considerably and may be too easy or too hard for the average good example of the breed to pass. The "uniformity" of the Schutzund test provides a level playing field for each and every dog tested to be put through exactly the same paces across the board, and as a testing standard, the Schutzhund test provides that advantage. The training phase of Schutzhund is essentially what weeds out the faulty dogs, not the finished product, as the finished product can be overly polished by exceptional training and effort. Overly weak nerved dogs with temperament issues surface in Schutzhund obediance being the basic stage. As a breed worthiness tool, many would fail the basic of tests to be deemed not suitable for breeding as the basic stage is generally commenced with a green dog. A dog has to pass one phase in order to be promoted to the next and easliy determines the dog's character as training evolves. A madatory standard test like Schutzhund provides transparency in the GSD world which openly demonstrates the breedworthiness of particular blood lines. If for example "Mary vom Showdog" was up for testing and she feared the jumps and was fear aggressive with other dogs, it would openly expose that Mary is not a bitch you would want puppies from and word of mouth alone would eliminate her from reproducing her faults. There are many other areas where testing standards provide advantages also. A certificate of proof that a dog has passed the required tests for breedworthiness does hold a higher rating than a breeders opinion of the quality of their breeding stock which may not be correct. Agreed and as I have said many a times before having a test either Schutzhund or something of equal value would be excelent for the breed - especially in todays day and age. I wont belittle breeders though that find other means especially at the moment with all the issues going on. So long as they are doing what it takes to create good examples of the breed then I commend them. As far as the WL vs SL I have owned both and others "versions" of the breed. Each has its own draw backs and really they can both be faulty. But realistically there will always be people that breed extremes. As sad as it is it does fall to the puppy buyers/show buyers/work buyers/sports buyers to ask the right questions and find a breeder they are comfortable with. Ive had extremes of both myself. A SL bitch (that really I always knew she would have issues from bad breeding - her mother failed breed survey and couldnt be taken to the club because of fear aggression amoungst other thing from being kicked at the club) who had extreme anxiety. Ive had WL that had many health issues (skin, hips and elbows, and arthritis every where) as well as being very over the top in behaviour and unable to work at all. My czech bitch and a couple of show lines have been closest to how I imagine the breed. The Czech Shepherd (although not really a GSD) was just very difficult to get through the initial puppy stage but she settled very early and was a wonderful pet. But I could see how normal people () would struggle with a dog like that. I do tend to favour the SL as I feel like they do more towards testing to have an all rounder where as too many WL breeders I have met show little regard for any kind of standard. Thats not all by the way I know there are some truelly dedicated WL breeders. I think we all need to take a step back occassionally and have someone nuetral to help us shape our breeding programs and if your dog can do what it was originally bred for that is wonderful. My advice for people is try not to pidgeon hole people who dont do it your way and try and get some experience in what they are doing - you never know you might learn something. Ok that was a ramble so Im going to shut up now

I agree that breeders should be honest about what they do. I dont know about everyone but I think most breeders talk at length with their puppy buyers about what they have done with the dogs, they also hopefully should ask them what they want the puppy for. If the buyer wants something specific they need to be honest with the breeder when they come to see the dogs. Im one of the people that dont think that Schutzhund is the ONLY way (although a good way if you have access to it) to test a GSD to see if it fits. That for me is where the arguements start as I am condemed by others for having weak nerved dogs. I think I put alot of effort in finding other ways to test this in my dogs that I use for breeding. For example a dog can be assessed by a proffessional well recognised trainer to see if the drives exist (a dog with weak nerve or low drive is easily spotted then). I think the best ultimate way though is for that dog to be tested in real life. A GSD is an all rounder and in my IMHO needs to be exposed to all sorts of challanges not just sport but as much as humanly possible. A dog that comes out on the other side of this calm and self assured regardless is in my books a good example of the breed. The dog takes everything in its stride every single day and adapts to what ever his/her master requires. Id like to see more available for us to use for assessment (certainly would make life easier) but in the mean time I will continue to use what I can as a way for assessment and explain this to the buyer and let them make up their own mind. I have yet to have a compaint. I do not see my dogs as inferior and weak in any way and considering where they have been placed what they have done I am quite proud of their "work ability".