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When Koehler was in vouge that was all there was. If you used food or were "soft"you certainly didn't admit it Training with food was scorned and you were not considered to be a dog trainer's rear end. In his book Koehler makes constant reference to those he considered to be wimps (not his words but something similar). As has been mentioned how many were written off as too soft (not saying that rehoming a dog because it doesn't suit your requirements isn't ok, as long as it goes to a good home) At least the handlers these days are training all types of dogs not just the ones that could take the knocks or had preparedness to conform to humans, to me these are real dog trainers as they know more about motivating all dogs, not just certain types. As far as using a harness goes try to tell the 69 yr old lady I was talking to today they aren't an effective training tool. She was nearly crying tears of joy (so was I, as her mood was very infectious) and she also gave me a huge hug, because she can now walk her 5yr old male Mal without her hip hurting her from correcting the pulling and the lunging at other dogs. In just 9 days this behaviour has ceased, she can now walk down streets she has avoided because of the dogs that rush the fence. You might ask why did a older lady take on an entire male Mal (as I did initially) but long story short she saved him from death row because his irresponsible previous owners. He is a lovely dog and didn't deserve to die. I do, he followed it to the tee even when the dog had an extinction burst similar to the one described in the book. After that show this dog a check chain and it curled up into the foetal position, it was very sad to see The modified versions you get now seem ok not that I've ever done it. cheers M-J Hi M-J, Gee, disappointing to hear of such a terminal reaction to Koehler leash training with the dog you have described. I had a momentary shut down with a very timid Golden Retriever once which took special care having quite a spooky nature. It was the only time I have personally experienced a negative event with what I thought at the time, wasn't an overly heavy correction, but obviously it was for that particular dog???. He sprung back ok I recall and trained up well and didn't seem to effect him afterwards, always a bit spooky but seemed a happy dog. From what I have read about Koehler, he was in his day, a very high profile trainer and held some most prestigeous positions that he earned from the recognition of his training performances. There were other trainers and systems around at the time as far as I am aware, as Koehler had obedience competition teams he ran in trials around the US and his teams did always win. I am sure that anything in a competitive nature in those days, Koehler won it all at some stage. I read also once, Koehler pleading with the organisers of a major obedience competition when he was a young fellow for an entry with his scraggy old dog apparantly. The story unfolded that they allowed his entry in the end and he went on to win "every" event. The story ended by saying that considering him and his dog caught trains and buses to reach the venue, he couldn't carry all of his trophies home I don't think for a minute in those times, that Koehler was an inflated figure from artificial means, I think that what he achieved was the basis of what he could do above the rest in dog obedience and behaviour in those days. Koehler was anti treat training I remember that too, so obviously treat training was pioneered during his time for him to mention that. This is digging deep into the memory banks, but treat based training was initially more as opposition to Koehler's methods being barbaric and cruel. I don't recall initially that treat training was to deliver a better obedience result, it was to match Koehler's performance without conflicts with the dog which was the beginning of the division between positive and negative training methods, or something to that effect???. That's a nice story with the elderly lady handling her Malinios, she would be happy with that. I have enough trouble at 49 years old with an over exuberant working dog sometimes If it works for her and her dog, well done Cheers Ken

Good question! I'd love to hear the answer, because it's never been something I could get my head around. We all love our dogs, right? Why hurt the things you love? When there is a better way? That was a problem when the Keohler methods were practiced widely I recall and many dogs were over heavily corrected. In many cases it wasn't that the trainers liked doing what they did, including myself in that reference, but it was the way it had to be done. Things evolved from there where the better trainers then customised the level of correction to suit the requirements of individual dogs. With a responsive dog of natural focus, the corrections can be no more aversive than a small pop or wiggle of the leash. The intention of the Koehler method was not the application of corrections but ideally to teach the dog handler focus as the priority. In the modified system on the long line that I use now, the dog is rarely corrected if at all. It's a game of "follow me" with play reward when they get it right, but the basics are the same Koehler principal. Cheers Ken

Hi Staranais, I appreciate your response very much, I had gone out on a limb a bit mentioning Koehler although I thought in a loose leash walking discussion it was worthy of mention. I totally agree with your perception of the routines teaching commands especially the sit and the correction for non compliance yanking the leash straight up I have done it, and the last time many years ago now, I felt that I had breached the trust that the dog had for me from the look on it's face afterwards. I don't know if dogs think like that, but that correction didn't feel good for me to continue. I now actually train the sit and drop first before I concentrate on leash behavior especially with a puppy so the dog knows and responds to the command. I use both food and toys with a puppy in drive to get the fast immediate sits and drops in the Balabanov methods I prefer. I think Keohler did himself major damage and created hatred towards his methodology in general with correction of problem behaviour which I believe still remains in the current publication of his training book. My copy that is around somewhere was printed in 1968 I recall. What you describe of the loose leash reliability of the Koehler system is exactly as I have found it and for the most part is exceptionally good in developing the basic foundations I think too. Cheers Ken Just to add as an after thought Staranais, my last dog trained in full Koehler method prior to my own adjustment, did suffer from inflexability with a send out off leash. I never managed to really correct the problem, he would run out about 10 metres, stop and look over his shoulder at me for a second command???. I managed to smoothen the routine, but never polish it reliably. Perhaps an inflexability symptom as you mentioned???.

Hi Huski I will duck for cover from the shower of rotten eggs about to be thrown at me lol!!!, as I have in the past trained Koehler methods with many dogs, but found as time evolved that I could improve the system with the inclusion of positives into Koehler's basic system with faster results and less aversives. I think the modern methods in dogsport has extracted the ability for the success of breeds not previously used for sure and has probably also increased the sporting potential for dogs perhaps of the preferred breed but lacking the natural traits and ability. Individual dog selection was of major importance in the "old days" that responded well to aversive methods, where if a dog shut down on correction, the dog was condsidered no good and rehomed in many cases. Each dog is an individual in how they respond and focus even in the same breed, some focus easily, some are more difficult and some take some real work to get the basics. Sometimes you can get a dog that has the attitude "make me do it", and aversives I have found works best with dogs of that nature, but a good responsive dog, there is little need. Cheers Ken

What I like about the Koehler perspective a lot, is not entirely the actual method which I have modified myself adding positive reinformcent into it also, but the concept doesn't throw a dog into the deep end intially where they fail. Most people as anyone normally would do, take their new dog or puppy when old enough out for walk down the footpath on the street. Wow!!!, what excitement is out here the dog thinks as he/she begins to enjoy it's self. The handler is on the end of the leash with a dog that won't do anything you would like it to do, darting around, pulling, choking, lunging and doesn't seem to respond to anything for any longer than a few seconds and of course, the bigger the dog gets, the harder it pulls and the more it plays up on leash with a very frustrated owner being lead around by the dog. The dog has no idea what you need from it on leash and thinks it's a "free for all" to pleasure it's self with fun and excitement is all the dog really knows. What the Koehler basics teaches, is for the dog to focus upon you and learn to walk on a leash with limited distractions in small steps before you hit the streets. When the dog is foundation trained on leash and distractions are slowly increased as I establish in the park, once the dog is ready for the streets and footpaths, it's learned the basics already and has the opportunity for success. The dog also learns that the fun lies with you and nothing can provide the pleasure that the handler can provide is my ultimate goal. The concept is to begin low key and increase distractions as the dog adjusts and behaves with handler focus instead of just hitting the footpath with a dog that hasn't learned the basics of how to behave. Hope this makes sense what I am trying to say Cheers Ken

Hi everyone Been a while since I have visited the forums and forgot how informative it is This is a great thread which holds my interest and I have read every post digesting all the information and opinions offered which covers a wide range of ideas. Someone mentioned Koehler methods for teaching the loose leash walk, and although some may be critical of the Keohler system which I agree with some of the Keohler routines, but the basic leash training the Koehler way along with my own version of positive reinforcement is what I still use today with very good results. I will be honest to say, that I have never found a dog that didn't respond favourably to the routine and learn to walk on a loose leash. It's surprising the amount of people who swear never to be aligned with the traditional "yank and crank", but advocate about turns, change of direction and using the long line when leash training a dog which is all Koehler foundation work and is very good. Yes, there is an element of correction or aversion involved, but the level of correction depends on the individual dog. Some need a somewhat heavy correction and some just a wriggle of the leash to gain a response, but I can say this foundation system will train the dog and work towards unleashed reliable obedience. Koehler's foundation leash work was designed to achieve unleashed obedience and it's very true that the finished product of Koehler obeidence didn't wear a collar and leash at all. The "yank and crank" didn't last very long as the dog's obedience was polished off leash after a few weeks. Not that I am posting to sing Koehler praises, but the basic leash foundation work IMHO is still the best around. What I don't understand is when, albiet old leash training system, followed correctly, especially with positive reinforcement added into the mix works so well, where the need arises for the use of haltis and harnesses to teach the loose leash walk. I understand a dog not having much foundation work on leash and taken for a walk can be improved with some of these devices including prong collars, but I see in this system a "training on the run" situation which in some cases can amount to a drawn out exercise taking weeks and months even years to establish the obedience one is looking to achieve. I think of leash training like breaking in a horse and always begin a new dog in the park with low distractions first before I venture onto the streets and footpaths, because the dog will fail for sure when met with the slightest distraction without some foundation work. Maybe, I am just "old hat" and need to learn some new tricks, but seriously, I have never had anything I would call successful leash training in a reasonable time frame foundation training on the street engulfed with distractions that the dog can't yet handle. There is some extremely interesting advice here on this thread and wanted to share my perspective for anyone interested. Cheers Ken