Skipy

From what somebody said on this forum, I understand that they would not be 'smelled' by males, because although their estrogen levels would cycle (they would hormonally come into season), they would not have the uterus, and therefore would not be able to release "smells" that boys can sense.......

OK, this is more of a general question, but sterilization should not cost more than desexing, it might involve a bit more will on the behalf of a vet but it does not involve more work , it involves less work? peibe, I have a LOT of respect for what you are doing so dont involve that into general discussion about whether desexing is right or wrong, which is where this ended up. If people say that early desexing is THE BEST, I will respond to that. I do not blame breeders at all for this early desexing mania that is happening, I blame vets that do it..... I am sayign what I think is right, just like you are saying what you think. I am certainly not dictating, or have a desire to dictate what others do. I wish, however, that people would accept the WHOLE truth about desexing, especially early desexing so that people that are getting dogs from breeders, with best intentions in mind for their new dog would not have to suffer and miss out on enjoyment of having a healthy pet.

Out of context? It appears you have issues with comprehension. Again, you took it out of context because I highlighted the part where morgan said in which case a dog would undergo second surgery ie. in very rare circumstances. When person is not educated about something they take whatever info they are given, which is usually by the breeder and think that of course desexing has no side effects at all. When in fact, I would guarantee if they knew ALL the pros and cons of desexing, majority would be more than happy with sterilization alone. Most female dog owners are worried about male getting into their yard to get to female. And of course they get "well if you desex them you remove that possibility". None will get "well if you sterilize you will remove that possibility, PLUS, your dog will have the benefits of necessary hormones". my_sibe_owns_me - sterilization (which I am all for) will remove that problem of issues with the pup being bred afterwards. The whole point is that: 1. BYERS should know the WHOLE truth when getting a pup from breeder 2. Sterilization removes the fear that breeders have about thier pup being abused later down the track Finally I am mainly annoyed because good owners, such as the owner if akita in question have to suffer because they are not given a fair option for their dogs that they will take care for the rest of their lives. I dont do rescue and I am sure that you have seen many sad stories in your time of rescuing, but the fact that there is a better option for those pups has nothing to do with whether a dog is being resuce or not. You want to preven unwanted breedings, sterilization does that, I dont see the problem?

Silverdog, I like it. Do you think I would be shot on the street by "responsible" owners if I had the same anti-desexing T shirt as we are getting for BSL. Ha, ha......

NO, the poor pupy will be PTS because that moron did not know how to take care of his dog so that unwanted pregnancies dont happen. If you also go to the original post you will see that that person wanted to wait until the pup is mature and then desex her, but the breeder did not allow it. If you are that unsure about people that you sell your dogs to that you should not sell the dogs to them, its as simple as that. Quote: So - for dogs that will be ultimately desexed they need to go through not one, but two surgical procedures? Doesn't this then increase the risk of complications related to surgery for these dogs? Wouldn't it be far better to only prepare the dog once for surgery? Strange logic....... I wonder if people are reading whole posts or just bits that they take out of context so that they can respond to them. Quote:I am in favour of surgical sterilisation, followed up by later desexing only where absolutely necessary - for instance where pet owners are incapable of keeping their dogs on their properties, or with multi dog aggression issues (bearing in mind that desexing doesn't necessarily cure these problems). Many people think that if vet is willing to do it, of course its healthy for thier dog. If people knew all pros and cons of desexing, especially early desexing, many of them would think twice about doing it.....

:p ;)

Well I did say that it is a bit "off topic" when I posted that info, I stated it because people started throwing all the good points about desexing in general, nothing to do with morgan and what he posted at all.

Hypothesis is NOT scientific fact. :p Which is why THEY clearly state that they EXPECT, ie. they make a distinction between males for which THEY DO HAVE A PROOF and finish by saying that it might be true in females, MIGHT being the key word. I dont see where you get that they are saying its a fact.

:p Those big black ones????? Wow, even our baby monster did not have the drive to go through his kong very fast (he is only 1/2 through biggest back one that we could find)....

This is a bit off topic, but since there are always so many pro-early or in general desexing arguments here are some scientific facts. I did post this before in breeders forum so moderators can remove it if they think its unnecessary 1. J Am Vet Med Assoc. 2001 Jul 1;219(1):51-6. Links Effect of gonadectomy on subsequent development of age-related cognitive impairment in dogs. Hart BL. Behavior Service, Veterinary Medical Teaching Hospital, School of Veterinary Medicine, University of California, Davis, CA 95616, USA. OBJECTIVE: To determine whether gonadectomy predisposes dogs to development of age-related behavioral changes linked to cognitive impairment. DESIGN: Cohort study. ANIMALS: 29 sexually intact male dogs, 63 spayed female dogs, and 47 castrated male dogs 11 to 14 years old. PROCEDURE: Information on possible impairments in 4 behavioral categories linked to cognitive impairment (orientation in the home and yard, social interactions, house training, and sleep-wake cycle) was obtained from owners of the dogs by use of a structured telephone interview format. A second interview was performed 12 to 18 months after the initial interview, and differences in responses were evaluated. RESULTS: Sexually intact male dogs were significantly less likely than neutered dogs to progress from mild impairment (i.e., impairment in 1 category) to severe impairment (i.e., impairment in > or = 2 categories) during the time between the first and second interviews. This difference was not attributable to differences in ages of the dogs, duration of follow-up, or the owners' perceptions of the dogs' overall health. CONCLUSIONS AND CLINICAL RELEVANCE: Results suggest that the presence of circulating testosterone in aging sexually intact male dogs may slow the progression of cognitive impairment, at least among dogs that already have signs of mild impairment. Estrogens would be expected to have a similar protective role in sexually intact female dogs; unfortunately, too few sexually intact female dogs were available for inclusion in the study to test this hypothesis. There may be a need to evaluate possible methods for counteracting the effects of loss of sex hormones in gonadectomized dogs. 2. http://www.showdogsupersite.com/kenlclub/b...tionindogs.html 3. Clinical and pathologic features of prostatic adenocarcinoma in sexually intact and castrated dogs: 31 cases (1970-1987) Ford W. Bell, DVM; Jeffery S. Klausner, DVM, MS; David W. Hayden, DVM, PhD; Daniel A. Feeney, DVM, MS; Shirley D. Johnston, DVM, PhD; Dept. of Small Animal Clinical Sci; College of Veterinary Medicine; University of Minnesota; 1352 Boyd Ave.; St. Paul, MN 55108 "Castrated dogs had a 2.38 times greater risk of developing prostatic cancer than intact dogs when compared with the hospital population." 4. Prostatic disorders in the dog. Anim Reprod Sci 60-61[]:405-15 2000 Jul 2 36 Refs Johnston SD, Kamolpatana K, Root-Kustritz MV, Johnston GR "Two studies suggest that risk of prostatic adenocarcinoma is increased in neutered, compared to intact male dogs."

Morgan I (obviously) agree 100%. All the benefits of early desexing do not in any way outweigh the fact that these people are getting, for lack of better word "damaged goods", given that that is how people obviously treat dogs these days. And now we are saying that we don't want males to act like males, and females to act like females???? :p

Our 12 month old amstaff has killed few things, and this is with us watching him 24/7 (or so we thought): 2 pairs of good shoes (our fault) 8 outdoor chairs (not whole, he just tried every pointy bit on them) 5-6 door mats 2 new jumpers and 1 pair of suit pants that fell from the clothes line in the back yard his own dog house, again only the edges To add: also 1 matress(guest room), that my dear OH left in the back yard to be aired Anything else that was mistakenly lying on the ground.... Oh yes, mobile phone that I dropped without noticing it This is just of top of my head. This is all while his toys, kongs, bones are lying around the back yard WAITING to be shewed on.... All and all, partly our fault for not knowing that ANYTHING on the floor is HIS.... :D

What crap! They OBVIOUSLY care about their bitches being exploited by BYB etc. Most 'normal' people don't spend much time looking at their dogs genitalia. Who cares if pet Dane has a small doodle :D Not like he's going to be using for anything other than piddling! Is he going to go out and buy a Porshe due to penis envy??? Sorry, not to be rude but I think you are missing a point. This dog has recurring infections, pees everywhere in the house, causes stress to itself and to others and you find this funny?

Everytime partial desexing is mentioned, its like most people are blind to it....... To add: I dont think its breeders fault, I do however think its vets fault, any that agree to fully desex pups before 6 months of age. They should know the concequences of these procedures.....

Vets should be able to do it if you request it. I think its just easier for them to pull everything out. When people say early desexing is being done with no problems at all, how do they know. This might be one of the more dramatinc effect of what can happen, but how about all the other, more subtile effects.

Poor baby. The problem is that many other large breed breeders do it because many vets say that its OK. God forbid that somebody actually promotes later desexing or histerectomy....

We do monthly as well, Sentiel spectrum, not yearly. I know some people that do yearly, I think with those injections are slow releasing, so dog does not get huge dose at once......

Hi Whipey, yep we wanted to give our amstaff boy back as well, and we do not have any kids.... He is 12 months now and we are looking forward to getting another pup in few months time. I see you are figuring out that "can we give it back" stage does not last very long. I do have to say that crates are THE BEST thing in the world, I am so glad breeder recomended getting one... You have to have your eye on them all the time so crates are wonderful way of giving yourself a break from the dog without worrying about them. Good luck, hopefully you are through your worst.

So true, our amstaff used to do this when he was little, only occasionally and I saw him do it maybe 5 times, and then he stopped, AND YES, he has white tip on his tail. Maybe colour the tail tip until he forgets about it... :D :D :D It is funny, we thought we ended up with the dumbest dog

I have a fish question... I was always hesitant to give fish, because as a child I always used to choke on fish bones (sort of).... What fish do people give to their dogs. Do you give it raw or prepare it in some way. I always want to get some for our dog at the market, but we are not big fish eaters either so closest he gets to a fish fish oil capsules (or canned sardines, but I dont really like giving those to him)....

I have a fish question... I was always hesitant to give fish, because as a child I always used to choke on fish bones (sort of).... What fish do people give to their dogs. Do you give it raw or prepare it in some way. I always want to get some for our dog at the market, but we are not big fish eaters either so closest he gets to a fish is fish oil capsules (or canned sardines, but I dont really like giving those to him)....

Beef liver would be my preference, they need mixture of red meat with chicken. Also we give ours lamb or beef hearts, you can get them at the market, I am sure he can mix it all up if you ask him....

Pretty much what others have said. Chicken necks, very cheap, we get for our amstaff about 6kg/week-10 days, mince (mixed lamb and beef) and sometimes hearts (I have to boil these for few minutes, he wont eat them raw ). Rice I cook and sometimes put veges in with rice (once rice is cooked) so that they soften a bit (my dog hates veges).... In any case I started cooking for my dog all meat, I leave it for 10 mins, these days I give him maily raw (but he gets sick of it so from time to time I will boil it a bit). MUCH better than comercial food if you have time to prepare it every day.....

It looks like the little warior is doing better!!! I would say the worst has passed, he is sooo lucky to have you. All the best!!!

Poor little baby. . Given that he was eating a bit more seems promisimg. Let us know how he is going.