jaybeece

It's more the aggressive nature of the roll, not just the growling. It's forcing the dog to do something it may or may not be pleased about doing in a fairly unpleasant manner. Personally I wouldn't be forcing a dog to roll over if it didn't want to, that's just asking for trouble. If it's not happy going into that position it signifies that there's bigger problems with trust/dominance that should be worked on by evaluating everything about the dog's life and making lifestyle changes accordingly (IMO anyway). I imagine that's what the link OP is all about.

The difference as I understand it is that a proper "alpha roll" is done with an aggressive note to it. The dog is basically forced into a submissive position and often the owner will growl at the dog. Merely rolling the dog gently onto it's side/back doesn't sound all that bad to me at all. I do this with my dog mostly as part of playing/tummy rubs, but also to reinforce trust as it's such a vunerable position.

Hehehe, good point Haven :D

Conspiracy theories ahoy! That is not the way to reinforce spoken commands. You should not ever smack a dog, end of story. If you have to resort to it physical violence like that then your training must be somewhat ineffective. You have not exactly blown me (or I imagine anyone else reading this thread) away with your knowledge of dog training/socialising/aggression so I'm not sure why you think your opinion is needed in this thread. So far all you've done is attempt to stir people up with your "faaaar out" methods and claimed 100% success rate with afformentioned methods. Give it a break honey, it's tiring. If you still think you know what you're talking about, would you like to take my dog for a walk in public sometime? I'd be thrilled to show you how wrong you are by using him as an example of a poorly socialised aggressive dog. I think it would be very beneficial for you to understand what would happen if you smacked a dog with anxiety/aggression problems too. I get the sneaky suspicion that if you were his owner you would have had him PTS by now as he would be unmanageable and downright dangerous under your regime.

I couldn't agree more with this statement! I went through a viscious cycle of expecting my dog to act up and getting all anxious about it, he in turn fed off that and reacted more strongly, which just made me more anxious next time. Now I've calmed down about everything, the improvement in him has been incredible. He's still got a long way to go, but I've learnt so much about how dogs pick up on emotion from the experience and have learnt to be totally cool even when he's not. It's actually made me a calmer person in general

Nah. Wouldn't waste my time on that one either. Dare say it wouldn't change your attitude. Mind you, must return to my mentors and let them know all this study and practice and research into canine behaviour has been a waste of time ......... all one has to do, according to Rob6014, is smack the dogs. Yeah gosh Erny, you may be onto something there. And to think that all my boy's needed these past few months was a quick smack over the nose! I'll be sure to get onto that quick smart before any of those crafty experts try to change my mind.

Congratulations.

People with dogs with behaviour issues should, IMO, seek out a reputable and competant behaviourist and should follow the advice given, keep regular contact and take regular lessons from that person. That way you can be coached in dealing with your dog's behaviour overall. Honestly Erny, this is easier said then done. Trying to find a competant behaviouralist when you're new to this kind of problem is not all that easy and certainly not cheap if you go for a private consultation. Obedience instructors often swing from not knowing how to dealing with this kind of issue to telling you to the letter how they think it should be done. It's actually very difficult to find good advice, and even harder to find someone who can help you recognise the root causes of the problem.

I agree, so many people forget how important different environments are in the socialising process. Instead they think that throwing their 4 month old pup into the middle of a crowd of adult dogs is all it takes I think the majority of my boy's problems relate to an almost complete lack of socialising/training after puppy pre-school. This seems to be a very common problem too- all my friends who own dogs fell into the same trap. They seem to think that a few puppy classes and the basics like sit and stay are all that are required to have a well adjusted dog, but they are so very wrong. When I got my dog he was 6 months old, barely trained and highly reactive to everything onlead. I suspect he rarely left the backgarden with his old owner as he pulled like a fiend on his flat collar and that's all they had to walk him with. I don't want to think about how much of a nightmare it would have been walking a dog like that on a regular basis. Added to the lack of walks, I don't think he was taken on outings much due to his size (33kg at 6 months) and hyperactivity. He also jumped on every single person he met. I think the old owner really bit off more than they could chew with such a big, active and above all else, incredibly stubborn puppy. There's a chance that some of his problems are caused by questionable breeding (yay BYB!), but I think it's 99% upbringing. I made the mistake of throwing him into the deepend after about a month of owning him. We hit the offlead park every day and I took him with me on as many outings as possible. If I had known more about dog behaviour back then I would have done so many things different, but back then the aggression issues weren't around when he was offlead and I didn't know how to read his body language. At 10 months old he was smack bang in the middle of a fear period, full of silly teenage male hormones and ready to take on anything that made him feel uncomfortable, which ended up being every single new large male dog he met, then it became every new large dog he met. I just assumed that they'd sort themselves out when they had a bit of a growl or if one tried to hump him. This, added to bad advice given on how to deal with aggression (telling him off, heavy correction) only served to enhance his existing anxiety and damage the trust he'd develped in me which also made him more protective of me. During periods of heightened anxiety (generally caused by new/noisy/dog crowded environments) he developed a nasty habit of lunging at damn near anything that moved. Basically, his primary problem is social anxiety. But then I also have to deal with him being naturally protective, as well as that he's a big young male who dearly wants to be top dog around the majority of male (and the occasional large female) dogs. That's not necessarily a bad thing with a confident, dominant dog but he is still lacking the confidence he needs to feel comfortable so is always looking to prove himself around them. Phew, that got long quick

I think that with patience and persistance you can do almost anything. If a pup was aggressive from day 1 I'm not sure if it'd ever be 100% trustworthy, but with the right training you could definately have it under control at all times. As far as nature vs nurture is concerned, who really knows? Young animals are such fragile creatures sometimes that it can take only one bad experience to shape their future behaviour so it's hard to tell if they're really born with a problem or not. I do think that it also depends on the dog- sex, temperament, drives and breed. Even with the right socialising and obedience, once they hit 6-12 months old things like fear periods and hormones can make a big difference on their behaviour, especially where it comes to same sex interactions. Some will go through that barely batting an eyelid, others won't.

I reakon Halti's definately have their merits, but only when the dog's close by you. If they're out in front and lunge suddenly, it's not a healthy movement for their neck. I also cringe knowing that the nose area is very sensitive so a sudden jerk can't be doing it any good. That said, I use one combined with a choker. The choker is attached to his lead and that's where most of the control is. He wears the halti with a stubby lead attached. If he begins to react I'll grab the stubby lead and pull his head around. Being able to redirect his head quickly makes a world of difference and it means I'm a lot more confident about handling him in stressful situations as he can easily pull me over (and has before). And yeah, I understand the inability to gain focus or use rewards. I've given up entirely on distracting him with toys or food and his focus leaves a hell of a lot to be desired. TOT has been in use for several weeks so he's got the eye contact down at dinner time and before we leave for walks but once those paws touch concrete I'd be lucky to get more than a glance from him. It's a work in progress

Indeed it is! But as a wise trainer told me a couple of weeks ago "Just think about how easy it will be to deal with your future dogs!". She had a point alright ;) In a lot of ways having a "special" dog is a valuable experience though as it forces you to really pay attention to how they're feeling and acting so the bond you can develop with them is incredible. I know that I'm a better dog owner for it and any dogs I have in the future will benefit from this immensely. I also find any improvements in his behaviour incredibly rewarding so it's all worthwhile :D Today we walked past a fence and some dogs came out of no-where. Normally he would go absolutely off his head at them but today he did a little lunge, then stopped and sat calmly next to me. My head almost exploded with happiness

Nope - no dog is that. I know, I know. I'm not trying to humanise him or anything. It's stubborness mixed with intelligence that makes for a dog that is challenging and needs clear rules set. Regardless of this I call it bastard behaviour because it simplifies the explanation

^^^ hehe, I can see how he fools everyone Ok, when he doesn't sit straight away, no pushing down on his bum. Keep it just to his collar and make it a short, sharp correction as well as a firm "SIT" (this doesn't apply if you're using a head harness). Do you use a correction collar of any kind? If not a check chain would be a good idea, or a prong/pinch if you can get your hands on one. You want to make this correction as clear as possible (obviously without resorting to abuse) so understands that disobeying you is not an option. If you push his bum down he may misinterpret that as praise as you're touching him. Also, when he does sit, wait a couple of second before saying "Good dog" and don't praise him too much, afterall he's been a bastard about sitting and you don't want him to think that it's ok to make things so difficult. Praise heavily if he sits first go. I think deep down he wants to do the right thing by you, it's just he likes to push you as well.

Yikes, sounds like a right bastard! What kind of dog is he? I've suggested it before to people and I'll suggest it again....NILIF!! And it sounds like you need to get a lot stricter with him. Get that dog working for everything so he learns to appreciate you. Also, if you tell him to sit and he hasn't by the count of 2, correct him and repeat "SIT". A sit is not half way between sitting and standing either, it is bum on the ground or he gets corrected for it. You should never, ever let him get away with not following a command immediately because he's already figured out he can push you a long way. I'd also keep him on a lead a lot more often to stop him getting into food and misbehaving. I think obedience school will help as well as most obedience instructors will pin point an arsehole dog and help train you on how to deal with them. I know how frustrating a stubborn male can be My boy is constantly pushing the boundaries and trying to get away with as much as he can, it's just fortunate that I'm significantly more stubborn than he is! Good example is I eased off him for a while and let him get away with dropping instead of sitting when I told him to sit. It's been about 3 weeks since I started cracking down on him for this and the bugger still tries it from time to time. I've taught him to sit from a drop and do you think he'll do it if I don't make him? Argh

I wish I knew where these people get the idea that punishing a dog for aggression is a good idea When I was first learning how to handle my dog's aggression problems I had a lot of different people (both instructors and dog owners) try to help and unfortunately the majority were of the opinion that a heavy correction was appropriate once he'd started lunging. I stupidly took any advice people could offer. This advice has proven the biggest setback yet in working him through his problems as not only did it not discourage his behaviour, but it also damaged his trust in me as a strong leader which is absolutely vital. Now I've taken a gentler (albeit still firm) approach to things he's improved immensly and his trust in me has never been stronger. It's frustrating to think that if we'd had good advice from the beginning that he could be much better by now, but I guess hindsight's a bitch. Rom - I just can't believe that a professional obedient instructor could be so misguided as to do that to their own dog. Can't she see in his body language and behaviour that it's not doing the dog any good?

Sounds like you're doing a great job with him Devo

I wouldn't worry too much about other dogs at this stage. Socialising is more than just meeting dogs; it's new environments, people and experiences. If you take him out and about with you, I'm sure you'll encounter other dogs onlead anyway. Obedience schools will also often run classes for young (less than 6 months) dogs.

Please don't take that pup to an offlead park yet I cringe when I see dogs younger than 4 months at my park as they nearly always get bowled over by an enthusiastic adult who doesn't realise how small they are. It'll only serve to make the pup scared of anything bigger than it. You're much better off sticking to puppy school so the pup can play with dogs it's own size without feeling intimidated.

The best thing I've ever bought is a lead with a padded handle- I've seen them around in pet shops and they're well worth it if you have a pulling dog. Gloves might also be a good idea for now as well. If her neck is all red then you're using the check chain wrong. I know this probably sounds impossible at this point but she should never be allowed to choke herself on the end of the lead- check chains are designed for a quick correction followed by a release. If a dog feels pressure around their neck/chest, their instinctive response is to pull against it, resulting in even more pressure around the neck- therefore letting her hang on the end of the check chain is actually encouraging her to pull even more. Also, have you tried positioning the check chain around the top of her neck, just below her ears? It'll keep her head up which takes some of the determination out of the pull and it's also a very sentitive area so she'll feel the chain more. I think you'll find that she won't pull anywhere near as much when it sits there and it'll give you enough slack on the lead to be able to get in a correction when/if she does pull. You said that she heels ok? Well, I'd work on heeling her more often during walks which will encourage her to be more patient, ecpecially at the start of a walk. If she's free out front and pulls, stop walking and have her sit. She pulls because she wants to move faster, if you stop every time she pulls you that will help her understand that pulling != forwards. Once again, I'd work on heeling but vary your speed so you can build her up to a run while sticking to your side. I personally wouldn't run with a dog unless it was under a heel command as otherwise they think it's ok to stop and sniff things. This is coming personal experience and a big scar on my shoulder from being cut off by my dog while running at full speed

I started out totally against food training but will now use it from time to time for new, more difficult tricks when he gets it 100% right. Generally though I find he doesn't learn with food as well as he does with praise. He spends more time looking for food than he does about thinking what he should be doing. I think it really depeneds on the personality of the dog.

Don't ever feel bad for failing an obedience test. My dog failed a lot to begin with and some people at my obedience school have spent up to a year in each class I don't know a whole lot about timidness problems but as far as medication is concerned, don't ever be afraid to talk to your vet about it. You'll always have people make negative comments about things they don't understand. I've had plenty of raised eyebrows and rude comments from telling the wrong people that my dog takes anti-anxiety meds occasionally but the improvement in his confidence has been astronomiocal and nothing anyone says will make me regret the decision. If you do go down that path, remember isn't not a total solution, rather an aid to go along with positive training. It also doesn't need to be long term, more something to help get over a behavioural "hump".

5 dogs in a yard that small is downright cruel. He's got a working dog cooped up in there going out of it's mind and not even keeping them all contained properly. There is absolutely no excuse for this kind of neglect and it sounds like he's simply an impulsive animal hoarder. I doubt they'd be getting adequate vet care or enough attention/exercise. He's neglecting them, over the council limit and not even willing to do anything about it by the sounds of it. Have you said something to his face? Is he aware of this problem at all? I'd keep pushing the council to take action- surely they're not all registered? Maybe if you catch one wandering it'd be a good idea to turn it into the pound. If it's not registered he'll get slapped with a fine for that as well as the dog being loose. He'll either not claim each dog as it gets turned in or be forced to at least stop them from getting out.

What's the council limit on dogs? Seems like you neighbour has an awful lot of them, especially for such a small yard. My council has a 3 dog limit (or maybe even 2) and after that you need a permit. I believe part of that is proving the yard size is ok for the number of dogs and that you are able to care for them adequately. Might be worth a call to the council, I've never heard of any that allow 5 dogs without special permission.

Check chains, when used correctly are very effective. You need to make sure that the message you're sending to your dog is 100% clear though. I think the biggest issue with them is that not all dogs will feel a subtle correction from them which results in a "grey" shade of correction when it needs to be black/white. Hope that makes sense There's also the obvious risk of injury which can happen with any form of collar when misused. I'm in class 3 at Knox and they've been wonderful. Not all the trainers are at the same level of knowledge, but all of them will go out of their way to help you.