jaybeece

My dog isn't all that motivated by food either, but it still works well for him. Food is supposed to be an excellent pacifyer/destresser so can still be effective even if it's not a motivator. Just be mindful that when you've got food in one hand it means only one hand controlling the dog, so only use it when you know he's not at the point of reacting yet. I learnt this the hard way when 40kg of dog lunged suddenly and I only had one hand on the lead (still held him, but he nearly dislocated my shoulder!) Another thing I forgot to mention before is that I pay close attention to the tension on my dog's collar. The more tension on the collar, the more tense the he becomes. If you think they're about to react, one of the worst things to do it pull hard because it almost cues the dog to do react. Instead I keep everything light and happy, give small tugs on the lead and encourage the dog to come around back to me. Keeping my body language relaxed and tone happy means he relaxes more. No problem good luck, hope some of the suggestions help! Could be...he might be waiting on reassurance that everything's ok when he hears something strange?

I can give you a couple of suggestions as my dog is similar in a few ways. He is very protective of me and will lunge at other dogs when I'm walking him. He'll also get worked up over people who approach front on staring at him. Part of this is a trust issue where he doesn't trust that I can protect myself or him. NILIF and TOT are both used, but don't seem to help at all as these things are practiced for the most part at home where we have very few problems. It seems to be more to do with him being insecure and nervy while in environments that he's uncertain in. At the dog park he's so relaxed he's never aggressive for this reason, whereas at the local shops and dog school he's a basket case. The cause is probably not the same for your dog Ruffles, but some of the following stuff might help. I can't imagine it will do any harm anyway. What I do for my dog is for one have him sit when he's feeling challenged as it's a neutral position for him. Dropping tends to upset him as it's too submussive and standing is definately out as it seems more of a dominant/aggressive stance for him. I'll redirect him to prevent problems so I'm between him and the person/dog who's upset him. If I'm between him and them and still calm it helps him understand that he doesn't need to guard me, it's my job to do that for him. Another thing that has been very effective is having him sit while people/dogs are coming straight towards us and give him food so he builds up a positive association with the oncoming being. Obviously if he shows signs of reacting badly the food stops. The food helps to pacify him, provides a great distraction and, as I said, builds up a positive association with oncoming beings to get rid of all the bad ones he has from the past. One more thing- is he protective at home? My boy is and will sometimes become on edge over the smallest noises in the front of the house. About a month ago I was told (can't for the life of me remember who suggested this) to let him bark a couple of times, then tell him to sit at the door, walk infront of him to put myself between him and the perceived threat, then calmly open the door, show him that there's nothing to worry about and give the command to release so he can check it out too. Basically shows him his glorious leader is on top of things and he has no need for alarm. It's worked so well that he's becoming a lousy guard dog. He just looks at me as if to say "Well, you know what, I don't think I need to bark anymore. Go check it out will you?".

Yep, this pisses me right off too. I've had one bad experience with a trainer because I was far too trusting. Never again, I now take every piece of advice given with a large rock of salt and nobody handles him but me. The only person who's ever made my dog look terrified was a "trainer". The only person I've ever been truely worried for his wellbeing was when he was in the hands of this "trainer". They should have known better due to the level of obedience they were instructing and the reputation of the school, but unfortunately they clearly had an enormous lapse in judgement that day. What a shame that lapse in judgement meant my dog had to suffer.

If you take out the break over Christmas, my dog's been in obedience for around 7 months. The club is $65 for the first year and $45 every year after that. We're having a break right now but I plan to keep taking him indefinately.

Well see, I work 9 hours a day, do extra work on the side, have a busy social life, play sport and go out a lot on the weekends. However I will always find time for my dog. He's walked every day, I spend a lot of time with him on the weekends and outside work hours and regardless of what time I get home on Saturday night/Sunday morning I'll be at training at 8:30am every Sunday (although he is having a break from it at the moment for behavioural reasons). My obedience club also costs a grand total of $45 a year so I can't say that it's really putting me out financially. Granted, it would be a lot easier if I worked from home and had fewer commitments, but he's worth making extra time for- I just don't really have time to watch TV anymore That's not exactly a bad thing though. There is no excuse for being a shitty dog owner, it seems to be based on either arrogance, ignorance or just plain laziness.

Those stats are horrible Although I guess it makes sense...a friend who owns 2 small dogs keeps shaking his head saying he'd never have the patience to deal with my dog. Makes me wonder what would happen if one of his own dogs needed a little extra work behaviour wise Actually, his dogs are neurotic messes after being treated like babies all their lives but they can get away with it for the most part because they're so tiny. Another friend has a dog that he's written off as a "bastard" based on a vet telling them he was one of the most insane dogs he'd ever come across. He's a pet shop dog, so it's likely he does have temperament problems, but do you think they'll even consider taking him to obedience or a behaviouralist? Of course not. My friend mistreats the dog and feels like it's justified because the dog is a "bastard" and refuses to listen to me when I suggest obedience training will improve the relationship he has with the dog. Apparently puppy pre-school is all that's needed He mentioned the other day that he wants to buy a doberman soon. I'm going to do everything humanly possible to prevent this from happening as he will ruin a dobe and I could see it being PTS if it got the level of neurosis his current smaller dog is at. Some people are just...ugh, they make me so angry

I figured that would probably be the case

So how do you guys enforce the training requirements? Do you need some form of written proof or do you check in on the dog to see how it's progressing? Are owners allowed to "home school" the dogs if they know what they're doing? I'm not flaming or anything, genuinely curious! Also, since Jefe's owners brought it up does Schutzhund violate your contract myszka? It's great to see how much you guys care about the wellbeing of the pups you breed. I wish all pups were sold with the same care and responsibility.

I had an instructor like this too. Only she didn't tell me to do it, she took the dog off me and did it right in front of me. My poor dog was a nervous wreck after 5 minutes with her and was fearful of the choker for a good couple of weeks afterwards ;) It broke my heart to see a normally happy dog reduced to a wreck by some silly girl with no clue and it set us back a long way in both obedience and sorting out his issues. Worst thing about it was it all could have been prevented if I'd said "no, please just explain what you want me to do", as if she'd described what she was intending there is no way in hell I would have let her even touch him. This is the biggest problem with correcting a dog severly for showing aggression. The worst thing you could ever see in a dog is "dishonesty" because you end up with an unpredictable and unreadable dog. I've ended up taking my dog out of obedience for a little while because it's the only place where I can count on him reacting at some point. Even keeping a distance from the class doesn't prevent reactions 100% and he spends too much time shaking and looking nervous, despite my best efforts to calm him down. I ended up having to look at who I was taking him to obedience for- me or him? It was me. I love going- the people are wonderfully supportive and so understanding, but the dog at this stage does not get anything positive from it. I might take him back again in a month or 2 and see how he goes. I've spent so many months milking every resource I can find dry, from people to books to the internet, on how to deal with his issues and now we've got a positive system worked out he improves every week. He's gotten into the habit of automatically sitting whenever he feels challenged by something and he's reacting less and less to things that would have made him go mental only a month ago. He's beginning realise that other dogs walking down the street mean him no harm, and even if they did I'm there to make sure he'll be ok I'm so proud of my silly boy

Are you able to PM the vet's contat details Lozzie? With a big dog and 2 silly cats I could do with finding a cheaper vet My vet is lovely but he's very pricey.

I'm glad we can come to an understanding! Just one last thing though, my stance against hitting dogs is not about anthropomorphising them. As stated previously in this thread, I have no problem with smacking a child when needed! Also, when I suggested rehoming the dog, it was not intended as a suggestion to dump the dog in a pound- far from it! That just sounds like a death sentence for a dog with issues. I meant it as taking the time to find someone who will be able to devote the time needed to work with the dog. Once again this is in no way a slight against the OP and I'm not suggesting she is anything less than capable, some dogs just need to be the sole light of their owner's life. Erny- it's ok, I think HR sounds like a great dog owner

I understand your point Herr Rottweiler, that doesn't mean I agree with you. There is no need to be condescending. In the situation where the dog's ear was ripped off it the attacking dog would have been in a high state of arrousal where it would have been unlikely to care about pain or heed yelling. I personally don't see how belting the dog would do anything other than aggravate it. Do you understand what I'm saying? You'll also note I said "break stick or something similar". Of course I'm not suggesting that someone would have one lying around or in their pocket. You asked "Would you stand there and negotiate with the dog or would you defend yourself?" I gave you some answers. Regardless of the difference of opinion, I believe the bigger issue was that there are some who feel like the OP was attacked. It might do to remember that most who have gotten upset know the OP personally and know more about the situation. Many of us don't and only have the first post to go by. We simply don't have the same experiences as the rest of you with Scope and that's not our fault. If she wanted a more personal touch then an internet forum is perhaps not the best medium for her post. This is the big bad internet folks. The thing that brings us together is out mutual love for dogs, but you must understand that we are all vastly different in mannerisms and approaches on things. Personally, I've had some pretty harsh comments made towards me on another forum in regards to things that weren't even my fault with my dog but I took it on the chin and accepted it as the person had taken the time out of their day to try and help me. I think you should all take a step back from the emotional side of this thread and think about that.

Look, there was no anger or scorn. The majority of responses over hitting were directed at the person who posted to say they've punched their dogs a million times. This has since been clarified and since then the only comments about hitting have come from people such as yourself. Also, as this is a public forum you need to understand that any responses are not for the OP alone. When someone posts to say they hit their dog, even with the full knowledge that it was not the right thing to do it still bears mentioning as others will be reading as well. Not acknowledging this in replies implies that it's not an important factor in the thread when it most certainly is. I also wouldn't be saying something like "That's ok, we all hit our dogs at some point" because I haven't and will not. Simple as that. Why would I lie? If I get frustrated (and believe me I do!) I take a few deep breaths and have a time out from the dog. I did express my conern about the OP's lashing out at the dog out of frustration and I'm still concerned as they thought there was a chance it would happen again. I think that if a dog makes you that frustrated then there is bigger problem that should be addressed. Break stick or something similar? Pull the dog away with with it's back legs? Grab collar, pull and twist till it lets go? What would hitting accomplish if a dog's latched onto you or someone else, other than further aggravate it? Other than kicking away an aggressive dog that hasn't latched on yet, I don't see how violence has a purpose when dealing with a dog. Guess that makes me "rediculous". Why is this shitty? The dog seems to need more attention than she's currently getting? I'm not saying that the OP is in anyway neglectful, it's just that some dogs need a lot more one on one time than others. No-one said "GET RID OF IT LOL", I said it based on the description given of the situation and how much the OP was stressing. Sometimes it is better to look at what is best for the dog and based on the description of the situation my opinion was that it may be better for the dog to be rehomed. I think that the early suggestions given were polite, sensible and constructive.

That's the only difference I can see too. And you know what MrsD? Not sugar coating things is part of who I am. If anything age and experience has made me more direct. Thanks cavNrott :p

not really sure where you're going with that there? I feel that the responses given by everyone (not just me and Shek) were sensible and based on what's best for the dog and Scope alike. Can you give some examples of what you're talking about? Are you trying to use our ages as a way to discredit the advice given? It seems a little rude when we're just trying to help.

That's a rather enormous generalisation don't you think? Fact is, regardless of age when you're dealing with dogs everything should be black and white! If you give them shades of grey to deal with they react with confusion, uncertainty and sometimes even fear. Also, at the tender age of 25 I see plenty of grey areas in life Plus after seeing the way people carry on sometimes in these forums it's pretty clear it's not just the young who wear their hearts on their sleeves- with good reason too! We're all here because we're passionate about dogs and it can be a very emotional subject at times.

All I'm doing is using my kneed to push him out of the way when I'm walking, not slamming my knee into his head. It's very different to using physical force as a correction. What would you see as preferable? "Don't worry little buddy, stay where you are, I'll just walk around you". Yeah, GREAT alpha behaviour. I also don't think a comparison can be drawn between disciplining a child and disciplining a dog as they're two incredibly different creatures. I wholeheartedly agree with smacking a child that deserves it, but it should only be reserved for occasions when there are no other effective disciplinary alternatives. Sometimes if a child is being irrational or getting too big for their boots a smack is needed. Dogs...well, dogs are certainly not children and should not be treated as such. They are pack animals and are incredibly sensetive to the mood and whim of their master. If you are an effective and strong pack leader with a well trained dog all it should take is a verbal command to correct undesirable behaviour. If you're having to resort to a "Punch, but more of a slap" then you either aren't using your voice correctly or are not their alpha. And if your dogs run up and knock you over, teach them to come and sit nicely. It's really quite simple. If that's not possible you might want to look at more training or who's actually running your household- you or your dogs?

If you don't want honest answers, don't ask questions. I thought all the responses were polite and flame free, so maybe you do need a little more sleep?

Um, what? punched, punch·ing, punch·es: 1. To hit with a sharp blow of the fist. 1. A blow with the fist. You do this to your dogs? Why???? Look, I'm sure everyone rough-houses with their dogs from time to time, but a punch is a little more serious and should certainly not be used as a correction if that's what you're implying by comparing it to a bite from a mother dog or pack animal. I'm also happy to admit that if my dog gets in the way I keep walking to teach him to move, so he'll get a knee in the side from time to time, but it's nothing like a closed fist blow and not for correction.

Seconding shekhina...please don't ever hit your dog! It sounds like you've been doing a really good job with them so far, but don't let your anger get the better of you as they'll both be able to sense it emanating from you. Frustration gets you no-where with dogs. And yes, why perservere if they upset you that much? If the GSD makes you so mad you feel the need to punch her, and are afraid of it happening again well I have to wonder why you want to keep her. To me it sounds like she might have some seperation or anxiety problems but I'm no behaviouralist. Maybe she'd be better off as an only dog with one master who can be her everything? How much time do you spend with her one on one?

I had a similar issue for ages where my boy would stand beautifully for me, I could stand behind him and poke him in the ribs or give him a belly rub and he wouldn't budge. But the second our examiner walked up, he would go to pieces and jump all over them Then I got a new trainer and all of a sudden it became easy, he trained me how to get the dog to stand without budging. I started off laying on the praise anytime he noticed the trainer but didn't move and kept it up while he approached. The second he showed signs of moving I'd say "Aaah" and he'd generally come good again. I'd already tried this under the guidance of other obedience trainers to no avail so I don't know what it was about this one. I think he probably approaches the dogs in a way that makes them less exciteable, but it helps immensly getting them to the point where they understand that stand means stand!

Liver treats, smackos, cheese and anything else he takes a fancy to. He also gets a tin of cat food (the stinkier the better) if he's behaved really well at the shops It does make for strange looks from people walking past- a large dog being fed a tiny tin of cat food by a very excited owner, but he loves it.

Good on you for bringing him back How long did it take you? Can you trust him on and offlead with all other dogs now?

...Its of no harm, but it wont be doing what you think it is.... That's why I changed it to "reinforcing" :D I'm certainly not expecting this activity to be what teaches him that I'm the boss I just figure that if anything it'll help reinforce everything.

It's mostly just when we've been wrestling on the floor. I'll push him gently and he basically falls onto his side on his own. I'll then give him lots of praise and a good tummy rub, also work on his feet (he's a little funny about them) and make sure he's comfortable in general. It's just one of a lot of things we do for bonding/trust. I also work on keeping him happy about me and food, touching his face/lips to make teeth checks at the vet a bit easier, as well as lifting his legs up one by one and giving them a rub down. He's a fairly dominant dog so I guess this is also reinforcing in him that being second to me is not only ok but something really good with a lot of benefits.