jaybeece

Thanks wolfgirl and Rappie That puts my mind at ease a lot. I try to keep all my animals trim and healthy, but I started to think I'd gone a little too far with him! I've been worrying that people in the street will think that I don't feed the poor bugger. You know what, I think this is why my boy looks so skinny to me- there's so many overweight dogs around that he looks like an ethiopian by comparison

My boy is pretty skinny and sometimes when I look in the rescue section he looks like some of the dogs that are a bit malnourished From above I can easily see his rib cage which looks kinda freaky. However, he's well fed, eats at a pace that suggests he's hungry (not starving), is regularly wormed and has a huge amount of crazy energy. I think I'm just being paranoid and it's just because he's young and fit, but does this look ok...

Haha yeah, one of mine bitches a fair bit too Ironically, he gets fed the full recommended amount, it's the other cat who's on half a cup a day to keep her trim and I barely hear a peep from her. She just attacks me for pieces of ham when I get pizza

Rwaaaar Wrong state unfortunately :D

You're a crack up SM, if only you were a little younger...........

Thanks K9, that makes a lot of sense I'm pretty sure I've said this before, but next time you're in Victoria for a seminar I'll come along...just hope nothing comes up!

I apologise if this has already been asked in this thread, but is there a trick to building up interest in toys outside of the house? My boy is a huuuuge fan of his toys inside the house and I've managed to get him interested in them in the driveway to an extent, but the second we step out into the street he completely switches off. This has always been an issue and clicker training failed for similar reasons (0 food drive). I want to perservere with the toys though as even doing training in the house seems to have boosted his confidence, obedience and focus which is exactly what he needs. He seems to switch to largely defense with a little bit of prey outside, whereas in the house he's almost all prey and pack so he's very easy to work with then. So is there something I can do or is is just a case of depriving him of toys and building it up 3 mins/3 times a day and hoping that it'll affect him all the time? I'll have to attend a K9 Force session one of these days, it's just a matter of being available and cashed up at the right time

Ugh, that kind of attitude disgusts me A fat animal is not cute or healthy and reflects pretty badly on the emotional state of the owner if they can't be disciplined enough to provide appropriate diet and exercise. Cats are the worst- I can't stand it when people go on about how fat their cat is but it's just soooooo hard to feed it less because the cat will be "unhappy". Bloody hell, I'd rather have my cats bitch at me for food 24/7 than watch them turn to lard and die young. Ah-hem. Rant over :D Norskgra, I'm so glad this poor boy has found such a dedicated and caring new owner. They're a saint and I hope he turns into the sleek and healthy boy he's got the potential to be.

100% agree Erny, as usual you've worded things well ;) I've learnt a HUGE amount about dog behaviour and training tips due to folks such as yourself and K9 being generous with your time and knowledge. These forums would be a much poorer place without your collective insights and opinions. Please keep up the good work and don't let childish, ungrateful people deter you from helping those in need of advice.

Biggest achievement of the year has been to teach my boy to walk past dogs in the street without going feral at them. I don't remember the last time he got worked up over one and that's a HUGE success as we've struggled with that since he was 6 months old. He also ignored a dog (golden retriever-his most hated breed) at the shops the other day. Normally he'd fixate on it, then get worked up until I have to redirect him. We sat 4 metres from it for about 5 minutes and not once did he show a single sign of reacting to it or even being uncomfortable, he just sat and enjoyed an ear rub. I have never been able to do that before. We also had a lady walking 4 small dogs walk right past and he didn't batt an eyelid at them. He's also responding very well to hand signals- he's got sit, heel and drop perfect now which is a great party trick! He'll be 2 years old in February and I'm hoping that by then we'll have made more progress so he can start going back to dog school on a more regular basis. He was blazing up the classes earlier this year so I know he's got a truck load of potential, I just need to help him learn how to deal with the other dogs bettter. I'm very proud of my big brown monster 2007 is shaping up to be a great year for him. EDIT: Thinking back, we've actually achieved a whole lot more than just the above. At the start of the year he would barely heel, wouldn't sit reliably, chased the cats, wouldn't recall well, jumped on people, etc, etc. He now heels perfectly (I'll post a video some day), sits instead of jumping, comes when called every time and has been adopted by one of the cats. It's been a loooong year

but they're not designed to do that

The point to both of these techniques kind of is to make the dog care. They're not a total fix, but I can see them both helping. At some point he's going to want something, whether it's food (have they tried skipping a meal?) or to go somewhere and that's where both of these will work great. If the dog wants out of the house, they can start by having him sit before he goes anywhere, then build up the TOT to involve the outdoors (ie. he doesn't go anywhere until he looks at them). Sounds like he's going to be a heap of work, but not impossible given time. They just need to really pay attention to what motivates him (and there will be something, otherwise he'd be comatose) and working with it.

I posted what the gov't had to say here: http://forums.dogzonline.com.au/index.php?...t&p=1372083 You're actually pretty right about the scaremongering :p They based the ban on public opinion and what animal "welfare" societies had to say. Any adverse medical or behavioural side effects were not mentioned/considered/submitted, in fact they even stated that they received a testimonials from users of prong collars who recommended their use. Silly government

There's nothing wrong with having a different opinion, but charming little tds didn't even bother giving constructive critisicm. He/she/it went straight into insulting people, making accusations of "pro-cruelty" and neglecting to suggest alternatives that are equally as effective. Personally I'd love to hear some (unemotional, mature, intelligent) criticism of prong collars because I think it's important to know the good and bad of any training equipment and have an open mind about it all. Getting all emotional and pissy about it ain't going to accomplish that (that's directed at tds and that other nutbag who crashed a prong thread)

don't be silly! Dolphins don't have necks...where would the collar go EDIT: now I have the image of a collar slipping and sliding around a dolphin out of my head.... To each dog their own. What worked on your (I'm assuming) perfectly behaved dogs won't necessarily work on another. My dog is a great example of that- he does need corrections as part of his training, but we also use a heap of positive too. I've tried a lot of different training methods (including 100% positive) and have come back to incorporating corrections as I get the best results and also helps my dog understand what I'm asking of him.

K9 sums it up well Same here! I had the chance to do just this a few months ago and tried with a choker as well. It was really interesting to understand how the collars feel and also very educational! The choker pinched a little in the area where the rings joined and I really didn't feel a whole hell of a lot of anything even if I corrected pretty hard. The prong on the other hand stunned me. The correction was perfectly consistent around the prong area and certainly didn't hurt, it was VERY snug though and I can see exactly why they're so effective. It's such a lovely clear correction, whereas the choker would be more of an inconvenience than anything else. No wonder my dog almost always ignores it!

Here ya go http://www.k9force.net/index.html?row2col2=prong.html

This! x100 I'd either avoid putting my dog in the position where he would need a severe reprimand it or accept that it was my fault that he was in that position in the first place. The way I see it is that he has a conditioned response to certain situations and can't help this so if I put him in that position, I don't punish him for it as he's only doing what he knows. I just make sure to watch his body language very closely so I can prevent him practising his little lunge/bark/drool routine.

If we don't have one, I'd like to nominate Terrorbull to be our glorious leader.

Now you're REALLY showing up your lack of knowledge. If this forum is aimed at the general public as I know it is, I feel so worried about the dogs welfare. THERE ARE 14 & 15 YEAR OLD KIDS INFLUENCED BY YOUR RHETORIC DO YOU LOT, HONESTLY, WORRY ABOUT WHAT "JOE PUBLIC" THINKS??? You "pack of prats" ! I have the feeling that I would avoid the lot of you in my quest for a "peaceful pack"; I came to this forum wanting to learn and, quickly, found out that even those I could have respected, were influenced by commercial interests.[] Oooh watchit Erny, he's shouting now. How on earth could the use of particular training tools be influenced by commercial interests? You wanna stop beating about the bush and just spit out what you're attempting to say? I for one am FOR prong collars as I've been through "positive only" techniques and some have been to the detriment of my dog's behaviour. He, like some other dogs, do need a balance of positive and negative training in order to get it through to him. Feel free to pop on by to meet my dog some day and try your "training" methods on my boy to see how affective they are.

I love the smell of irony in the evening OP you...actually, no I'm too speechless to comment

I had an instructor at my obedience club react pretty badly when I told them I'd love to be able to use a prong collar on my boy, but then the female instructor next to him wholeheartedly agreed with me. Seems to be people either love 'em or hate 'em ;) I think Erny's idea is great. Here's what the Vic government has to say (taken from http://www.parliament.vic.gov.au/sarc/Annu...iew%202004.pdf) ... Loooong quote ahoy! So their biggest concerns are: * That a prong can be used incorrectly or inappriately and cause injury to the dog * That they "are difficult to maintain high on the neck as required when used" * Not necessary as they believe there are other training methods available * Animal welfare societies believe that prong collars and choke chains are cruel I'm pretty certain that if this was approached well that all of these concerns could be addressed. They did not have any medical basis for the ban and much of what was listed above was based on heresay, not facts. If presented with some solid evidence and facts, as well as a reasonable (like Erny's) solution I think we may have a tiny little chance at getting somewhere. So um...yeah, if something needs to be signed/researched/etc count me in I'm shocking at writing and speaking but I'll help in any way I can.

I heard recently that they're banned or almost banned in QLD now. I hope there's no truth in that Agreed. Prongs ain't for everyone, but that's the same with any training collar. I'd prefer it if all training collars required a consultation with a trainer first as all of them can cause injury if used incorrectly, especially chokers. It's alarming how many people let their dogs hang on the end gasping for breath

Well, I'm willing to give it a go...any idea where to start? I was thinking about pinning up articles about them at the local dog park and anywhere else it would get exposure from dog people, as well as going around to vets and asking them if they can offer any medical information about them.

As someone who's tried every collar except a prong here's my experiences for use with a large, strong, dog aggressive dog.... Flat collar: sure, it's painless enough, but he could choke himself to death by the time I get him back under control using one. Body harness: this thing's made for pullin' right on! Right? Right? Eh? Choker: gives reasonably good corrections and I've taught a strong puller to heel beautifully using one, however I have to give it a really good snap for him to feel it (even at the top of his neck). When he lunges at other dogs I die a little inside knowing the kind of damage that is potentially being done to his throat with all that pressure on a small area. Regardless, it gives me the best control/results out of all the collars. Head collar (both halti & gentle leader): While it's true that it made it easier to hold him when he pulled, these collars did nothing to help him stay in a heel position and he hated every second he wore the damn things. He also went backwards obedience wise when I used them. As for lunging at other dogs- the GL would ride up over his eyes (yes, it was correctly fitted) to the point where I was concerned that it would cause injury. Then I tried a halti which, while better, put a crap load of pressure around his nose if he lunged and, given the sensitivity of that area, I think it would have caused a fair bit of pain as well. Not to mention that the months I used these damn collars he had a permanant line across the top of his nose, which I've been told is "normal". Martingale: correction? What correction? Nuf said. Clicker: well, I honestly do like the clicker. It's awesome for teaching him to shake hands and roll over, but forget about heeling, sitting, and all the other obedience that counts when we're out in the street. He just ain't food driven, regardless of how much I skip/cut back on meals. We have had small amounts of success when dealing with his aggression, but ultimately I think it could take the rest of his life to train him with this method whereas it seems it would be a matter of weeks (days?) with a good ol'..... Prong collar. Oh what's that? A bunch of people thought they look mean so they're banned? Shame it seems I'll never be able to find out for myself how much it has the potential to turn my dog around. I'm at the point where I have to exercise the dog in the back garden half the week because I can't always be the positive strong leader I have to be in order to walk him (especially in the first stressful month of a new job) and not have him lunge at every dog he sees. Sure, we have a heap of wins, but we also have really bad days sometimes and it's hard for both of us. I'm seriously considering trying (and probably failing) to campaign to legalise prong collars again using my poor dog as an example. The legislation behind the ban in Victoria is an utter joke- read between the lines it is literally what I typed above- a bunch of people thought they were mean so they were banned...that's it. No medical or behavioural assessments were done and they even acknowledged that chokers have more potential to cause harm. /rant Oh yeah, and the plastic prongs look like rubbish, I wouldn't touch one let alone put one on my dog. EDIT: sorry for the rant, I'm in a mood Chocolate should sooth the angry beast soon