jaybeece

I was really interested in joining a club a while ago as the level of control in those dogs is incredible and I thought my boy would enjoy it. After reading more about the temperament requirements though, it was pretty clear to me that he wouldn't last 2 minutes without going to pieces

Sorry :rolleyes: I'm not up with Schutzhund lingo, but wanted to answer the OP's question. Although if the dog IS being trained to attack then I don't see why it's a terrible thing to refer to it as such.

I don't participate in schutzhund, but did look into it some time ago and I *think* cross breeds actually are allowed to participate in attack training (if their temperament is up to it), however they're not allowed to compete. I'm in Victoria too.

This is really great advice! I can't keep weight on my dog at all as he's very active and half sighthound, but he's fed Large (or giant?) breed Eagle Pack. Next time I pick up food I'll try a different type and see if it makes a difference He gets callouses on his elbows and back legs despite having plenty of soft surfaces to sit on outside and I can see some of his ribs so a bit more meat on him wouldn't be a bad thing.

Have you considered using TOT out in the street? I've used a cut down version when we're out, continuing on with the walk is what he wants, but unless he looks at me he doesn't get it. It can also be used for being let off the lead, leaving the house, etc. Clicker training might be of some use too, even if she's not very food driven. The reward association with the click seems pretty strong and my dog has always recognised it even when reasonably distracted. Now my dog still doesn't have great focus, but I've had to accept that he's no border collie ;) He's half sighthound and there's only so much dedicated attention I'm gonna get from him when there are so many interesting things to chase/sniff/pee on out in the street. But he glances back at me while walking and will actually watch without being told to sometimes and that's good enough for me.

Hang in there, it sounds like your really trying hard and I think it'll pay off sooner than you think :rolleyes: She sounds like she's improved based on your posts so you are moving forwards slowly but surely and one day you'll look back and feel proud that you did such a good job My boy was very much like your girl for a long time so I know exactly how you feel.

It sounds to me like you really just need a trainer to go through absolutely everything you're doing to see if they can give you pointers. It definitely sounds like you know in theory what needs to be done! And I hope this doesn't come across the wrong way, but based on some of your posts about your dog it sounds like she's been more of a burdon than a joy most of the time. Sometimes it pays to mentally take a step back, breath deeply and laugh next time they do something silly. I know only too well how much of a challenge a strong, willful, easily distracted dog can be and it's easy to get caught up trying to make them "perfect", then get stressed when it doesn't work.

But everyone who gives you advice will be doing it based on their own reasons, knowledge and experience. Just like your breeder did. If you ask a question on a public forum then you're bound to always get different answers, it's up to you whether you take it all on and to choose what fits best in your situation. There's often no right or wrong answer to anything in life, living animals in particular. Personally I think the diversity of opinion on this forum is great as it really makes you think and develop your own answers better. I'm a much better dog owner after paying attention to what the experienced and even not so experienced people have to say. Doesn't mean they're always right or that I always agree, but it certainly broadens my point of view significantly and often leads to more questions I've never considered before. Also I agree that a good sales person will do what's right for the customer. I worked in an aquarium for a while and always did right by customers as the well being of their fish was far more important to me than making a sale right then and there. My sales never suffered for it, in fact they were increased because customers trusted me and would stick with the shop as a result.

What is it? I keep hearing about it but no one has ever actually described it to me. This is why people have suggested employing the services of a professional trainer. Sometimes it's hard to understand how dogs learn and having someone explain it and observe how things work is invaluable. Not everyone is born with the innate ability to train a dog and some dogs can be quite a challenge. There's no shame at all in speaking to someone who can send you in the right direction, especially when a dog's well being is at stake.

Well see I don't agree that the dog learns that pulling is not a good thing with a Halti. They learn that the Halti is annoying when they're walking and more annoying when they pull. I don't think that's sending a clear enough message for it to be a really effective training tool. Of course some dogs will "get it" despite the vague and reasonably useless correction from a Halti, but I'd hazard a guess that the majority of dogs wouldn't. Dogs learn so much better when they have a clear "Yes" or clear "No", not this intermediate area where there's a possibility they can mistake the ongoing discomfort of a Halti as some form of correction. Annoyed or uncomfortable dogs also don't learn as well as happy ones. In response to your question to Tony, IMO the difference is one discomfort is far more effective than the other and less drawn out.

I can't speak for the sporn harness as I've never tried one, but I can give my opinion on haltis vs chokers as I've used both a lot. Haltis are really, truly fantastic for managing a strong dog when you need more or less perfect control. A bloke in my obedience class used one on his bouncy, out of control large dog very sucessfully, I've seen the improvement since he first fitted one and she's been like a different dog. It's really great to see. BUT he still trains with a choker, the halti goes on for walks and for when he needs to control her around other dogs. I think that's a really good balance and it's clearly been a godsend for him. The trouble that I've had with them is that there's no real "Off" with them. They're always on the dog's face, always annoying. Sure they tighten more if the dog pulls, but even when they're being angelic the sensation of having something strapped to their face is still there. I think it creates way too many shades of grey as it's not simply "Off" and "On". My dog detests it even when it's loose and learnt very little when I tried to use it as a correction collar. I carry it with me whenever I walk him still, but am realistic about what this collar can accomplish. As for the choker it's an entirely different sensation for the dog. For one it's around their neck which is not as invasive as the halti as it's nowhere near as sensitive as the face, I know I'd prefer something hanging around my neck to something strapped to my face. If the dog pulls it is intended to be tightened quickly and then released for a quick, clear correction. When loose it's no more annoying than a flat collar. To me this sends quite a clear signal to the dog that pulling = correction, walking nicely = no correction. There's no grey fuzzy area when it's used correctly. The other advantage is that you can easily build up an association with a verbal correction as well (just as easily as building an association with a clicker & treat), the dog learns to listen to you. In most situations mine pays far more attention to my body language and voice than the choker so I consider it to have been a very valuable training tool, despite it's flaws. He used to be a horrendous puller on any collar, now he can walk nicely on a flat collar. A prong collar operates in a similar way to a choker, but is more effective as it's easier to get a clear correction with one and, in my opinion, safer to use.

I use a choker & halti too. I spent a good couple of months trying to figure out how to stop pulling, but as soon as I had it figured out he improved in a matter of days. That said, he still will pull to get at other dogs as well as cats from time to time, but for general walking he's very good. These days I can walk him on a flat collar most of the time and control him verbally, so the choker's been a really useful training tool. I really would have preferred a prong, but they're illegal in Vic. The halti is brilliant for enclosed or crowded situations where I need absolute control. It has never taught him not to pull though, I see it as purely a management tool. I think the appeal of devices like the sporn and halti is that they require very little knowledge of training and very little time to work. These days everyone wants the quick fix, they don't want to take the longer, more challenging (although more effective) route if they can whack a bandaid over the problem.

Yes, but the RSPCA is seen as an authority on dogs so I think it's wrong to present only side of dog training to the public. My concern is that by promoting only "positive' training they're making it a lot harder for people who's dog don't respond to it well by making it feel like they'll be a bad owner for needing to turn to non-RSPCA approved methods to have a well behaved dog. One of their articles a while ago listed head halters under "positive" training equipment too which is just plain silly. It's just as adversive and "negative" as a choker in many ways. And IMO this is exactly the opposite to how it really is. So many dogs out there are well trained, but still exhibit behavioural problems and are regularly disobedient because they don't know where they stand with their owner or family.

Neutering didn't stop mine from cocking his leg and he luuuurves to pee on everything. If I don't want him to cock his leg on someone's nice front garden then I'll either keep him moving with "c'mon" if it looks like he'll stop. Otherwise I tell him 'Ah ah' if he's sniffing around and about to pee on something I don't want him to.

Thought I'd post a followup... I took him for a short walk with a greyhound while she was with us for a couple of hours for a meet & greet on Saturday and he was bloody perfect The grey girl walked out in front of him while he heeled beautifully next to me. He's such a bloody suckup :D Now fingers crossed that we get to foster her, just depends on the folks who arrange it and how comfortable they are about the situation. He had a couple of outbursts at her (while wearing a muzzle), but had calmed down by the time she left and seemed to be getting the hang of having another dog in the house. I think given a couple of days he'd be playing with her and having a ball

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I missed this before, but that's a great idea that I never thought of before...thanks! When he's released he's always gone out in front straight away and I'd much prefer him to be next to me or behind. This will give us something else to work on

Pretty good??? Not good enough, 100% is required.......or at least 99%. Well we're always working on it, but I don't think he'll ever have a perfect heel on the street though, there's just too many interesting things I can actually see him holding back though so he really does want to do the right thing, it's just a battle of "Cool thing to pee on!!! OMG!!! Oh, crap, gotta stay in a heel" I don't need it to be perfect anyway, I just don't want him to try to get in front of other dogs if we're walking with them as he breaks the heel significantly and will sometimes pull. At obedience, around the house and in enclosed environments (ie other people's gardens) he's a right little angel about heeling, it's almost sickening. If he didn't have his aggression problems we would have been doing offlead obedience over a year ago *sigh*

It sounds like you're more or less going in the right direction, but the key is to be very consistant and very persistant. Jumping is a self rewarding behaviour which means the dog gets something out of it and will keep doing it as long as the reward exists. So the first step is to remove the reward which is where turning away comes into it. There's also aversion (squirting with water). Generally though you also need to put a bit of work into showing the dog how to get the reward in an appropriate way as well, so having her sit before getting attention comes into it. I know you said you've already tried that, but once again you need to keep at it and make sure you're being consistant. So say you come into the house and she's jumping around like a maniac. Turn away and keep turning away if she jumps. When she stops jumping calmly tell her to sit. If she does it she gets attention. She probably won't be able to contain herself to stay sitting for a pat, so build it up over time. I had the same problem with my dog for some time and it really didn't get sorted out until I became very consistant. I did everything right most of the time, but it was the occasions when I let it slide that meant he wasn't learning not to jump.

My dog's not fussed by thunder or firwworks, but with increasing numbers of fireworks being set off in my local area I'm a little worried about what will happen if I get a foster dog who's scared of loud noises. I guess we'll see what happens.

Do you think that it is possible that he's learnt (through your training) to not be ahead when you are 1:1 with him, but that when you're with two dogs and when you're on the bike, your "training" does not occur, hence the difference? I think that's probably a big part of it Erny, so I'll concentrate on re-teaching him to heel under these circumstances. Might be able to persuade my boyfriend to take the other dog while I walk behind with mine and work on it ;)

Great post Rom, I've thought about this issue too as I want to make sure walks are fun, not just a chore I think you've got a good point about repressing a dog's needs leading to aggression, which is one of the reasons I've given this a lot of thought as I'm always trying to improve how I handle him. The more relaxed he is, the less he's prone to aggression. If he's had a good sniff and pee on stuff then his demeanour is different compared to when he's done a lot of heeling on a walk. At the same time I do like to have him heel for part of the walk to reinforce it in a different environment to dog school and also because it seems to help remind him not to pull as he used to be a nightmare to walk. There are also times when he definitely needs to be heeling, like when we're at the shops or near another dog. He gets time on his long lead at the local school too (very dog and people free so it's brilliant) so he's getting a fair amount of freedom, even if he is still on the lead. Even if I'm taking him out with the bike he still wants to be ahead of me, so I don't think it has anything to do with the pace unfortunately.

Absolutely agree with you Tony which is why I noticed I'd been a bit soft on him. I'm still a lot stricter than anyone else I know, but this dog does need very firm leadership. I'm brushing up on it in preparation for having another dog around as I want things to go smoothly. Thing is that he's always been like this, even when I was very strict and consistent with him. The biggest problem I'm facing is that he's a different dog out on the street and it's difficult to reinforce leadership out there. I run through obedience, make him sit at roads and work on focus but it doesn't seem to make an impact at all. In the house he's absolutely fine, no problems with me or the cats and he'll happily follow behind me. Yep I'm still undecided about walking them together as my boy is dog aggressive and I don't want to have to train him while having another dog to worry about. But at some point chances are good that I'll have to walk them together, even if it's only to the car, etc.

My boy's always been a challenge to keep at a heel on walks, but for the most part he's pretty good. Add another dog to the walk however and he WILL NOT stay by my side if the other dog is in front, he always wants to be out front and is very hard to heel. I'm possibly going to start fostering greyhounds soon, depending on how well the meet and greet goes, and if I walk them together (still undecided) this is probably going to turn into a right pain in the butt. I'm 99% sure he likes being out front because he wants to be top dog and calling the shots, but I don't want him to be doing that because it's not his place to be doing it. We've always done NILIF, he always has to sit at roads and perform random obedience work on walks so I'm not sure what else I can do. Admittedly I have been a little soft on him at home lately (which is changing now), but this has always been a problem even when I've been strict with him. At dog school he's very good- I nearly always let all the other dogs go first before we start off heeling and no problem there. I guess the different environment makes all the difference. So does anyone have any ideas on what I can do to work on this? Will it be a case of just more or less teaching him heel all over again when another dog is around on a walk just to make sure he really gets it?

Nice work! Glad things have worked out so well