MrsD

Could you imagine poor Jonty if I had, he'd be a pancake Sheltie , nahhh I used conventional methods - well this time anyway , once in training 2 of us had to corner & block him in & make a grab for him though :D .

I've always loved dogs, owned dogs & had dogs "doing stuff" like tricks & working sheep dogs when I lived on a property but hadn't even heard of obedience/agility/tracking (that's pretty much all there was when I started :D ), trialling or obedience clubs. I had been without a dog for a couple of years when I got my first GSD (who was unregistered) & I lived quite close to an obedience club, so, being a responsible owner , I took him down there for training & socialisation. It was only when I'd been there a couple of months that I found out about obedience trials etc & the rest, as they say, is history. I was completely hooked on obedience & owning an unregistered dog back in those days in Qld you were treated like a leper, so my friend & I (who I met the first few weeks of obedience classes when we were both newbies training GSD puppies & who has since become a senior obedience judge) set ourselves up to trial over the border in NSW & spent many years happily doing so until we both had our kids. I didnt get my first GSD for a sporting purpose, but certainly all my subsequent dogs (I am up to #5 now) have been specifically chosen with various dog sports in mind, the beauty is that there are so many dogsports available now that you are sure to find something that your dog excels at . Im already looking at another dog for myself, either another sheltie or a working kelpie to do more herding with .

Thanx everyone! I got lots of very positive comments about both my boys, particularly Jonty whom everyone just loved - he's been dubbed Rocket or Pocket Rocket (I think that was Larry who owns Cody that started that off Hesa :D ) because he's so fast & has absolutey no fear . The judge described him as "a rottweiler in a sheltie body" & wrote some excellent comments on his evaluation form. CTD, I know everyone says it's really easy & all your dog has to do is show "interest" in the sheep (well at least that's what I was told by people before the day ), but both judges we had on the weekend wanted to see more than that. With my dogs at least, they wanted to see the dogs balancing the stock & yesterday's judge wanted to see the dog actually moving the stock around (which was just a little bit hard in a tiny round yard ). She kept yelling at me "Just keep walking - I want to see the dog bring the sheep to you" . Good luck with yours CTD, from what I've seen of Tia I dont think you will have any problems, as you said just make sure you have a good stop. I dont think either judge thought I would be able to stop my 2 (one told the property owner (who is also our herding instructor) that she thought he might have to go in there & crash tackle them to the ground :p ) but was very impressed when I did & commented on how responsive they both were. Anyway, it was alot of fun & the herding bug has definitely bitten .

BC Lover, I just checked, VCA allow 2 names not more than 20 letters long. Good luck thinking of something .

BC Lover, can we assume he's being registered on the associate register? If so, just check with the VCA as I know in Qld (& used to be the same in NSW) you can only register Associate register dogs with a single name ie Max, Fred or .......... Cooper . My Associate register boy is just registered as "Jarrah" . BTW, Cooper looks like a lovely boy, good luck with your CCD & CD titles .

I buy the 18kg bags at my local produce for around $60, so that saves just a little bit more that way. Funny thing is that I don't feed my dogs any extras like sardines etc, they get dry food & no extras (apart from bones occasionally), I changed Jonty over from Royal Canin to Optimum a couple of weeks ago & his coat is so shiny now ! (even though he's lost most of it ) And I haven't added anything else into the diet so it has to be the Optimum , same with Jarrah & Ebony (both on Optimum only), they look fabulous. Pandii, I've changed Jonty from RC & havent seen any noticeable change in what's coming out the other end.

Great videos Vickie, she is certainly much calmer than my 2 , although yesterday was the first time that I did actually think I had some control with both of them . I'm far from being an expert, but my novice view would be to keep working her when you get a chance, but without pushing her. Also as someone said, it doesnt make too much sense to rest her over the cooler weather. Make sure the sheep are nice & quiet & Im sure she will gain lots of positive experiences from working.

We have all 3 of our dogs on Optimum now & they look absolutely fantastic - I wouldnt have believed that they could look so good on a "cheap" food unless I saw it for myself .

I've not tried it yet with my current dogs, with my old dogs I just kept walking, I didn't have to tell them to stay - perhaps that just proves your point?

Vickie, they are both looking great ;) I cant believe how big the paddocks are that you work in - or how green they are . Great videos . I have a couple of videos of Jarrah & Jonty but I'd be embarrassed to put them up after seeing those ones of yours Vickie ;) . Edited to add - probably the best video we have is of Ebony last week - before she decided that she knew better than us like my 2 horrors

No .... I see advantage in "hold". I have used this when I have put my dog (ie physically manipulated) into a position (positions that are not frequently used and have no known commands to them) and then instructed "hold". One Eg. When my girl had to have heart xrays - I was able to escape the necessity of sedation or general anaesthetic because I was able to put Kal into position and say "hold". A lot of this was based in her trust in me, but she also understood it meant "keep that position; don't move". Ummmmmmm - in that exactly the same situation I would say "stay" ;) . Because although the dog may not know a command for lying on it's side, it does know that when I tell it to "stay" in a position, it knows it shouldnt move because I've taught it that in the sit/down/stand . But I think LP was referring to "hold" when you are teaching retrieve .

I do the same thing when my dogs get further advanced in training - I would expect my dogs to be able to stay only on "leaving leg" by the time they were trialling in Novice level but that's only me checking to see if the dog is watching me when I proofed, I wouldnt do it everytime I move. I do choose to give a command as a re-enforcer I suppose especially in the ring . I would HATE to have my dog sitting on a brilliant qualifier & to blow it's stay because it glanced away at the exact same time that I stepped off & it therefore wasn't positive which leg I stepped off with or not quite sure if I gave a command or didnt . I havent started training UD or UDX under the new rules, so I havent tried it yet, but we did always used to do similar to the COP on the move when I trained my old dog & I didnt have any problems with him doing it either even though I always used stay & wait. Interestingly I have never had an sort of problem with stays with any of my dogs until Jarrah. He takes the "stay" too literally & thinks that as long as he stays in the one place it doesnt matter what position he ends up in . I might try a position command reinforcer ie sit/drop on him instead of "stay" in his stays for a bit & see if he improves ;) . edited to add a word to make it clearer

Yep I am the same as you - to me, the sit/drop/stand command is the dog putting itself into that position, the stay command means "hold that position until I return to you & release you" or in the case of wait "until I give you another command". But just to confuse things even more, on further reflection of my training, I would only use the stay/wait command if I was moving away from the dog ie if i was standing next to the dog & told it to stand, I would expect the dog to stand next to me until I gave it another command. Does that make sense? So if I walked up to a friend & told my dog to drop & started talking to her, I would expect my dog to stay in that position until I gave it another command (either release or obedience like heel etc). So in that case, I do expect the dog to stay until I give a further command just like Cosmo & Erny - confused now? So am I . Ness, I had forgotten about the new UDX change of position on the move exercise, interestingly there are heaps & heaps of dogs competing in UDX that were taught the old way with stays & waits & most dont have a problem with the exercise, so you have to wonder does it really make a difference? ETA - Jules, that's what Im wondering now too ;) .

I see what you mean and assume you're talking here of going from a commanded static position into the "heel". But you'd give the dog the verbal cue for "heel" too, wouldn't you? Not just about moving off with you because you're moving off with the "come with me" leg? Erny, that's sort of what I mean, if you give a verbal command or hand signal to "heel" (as I said, even in UD the majority of people give their dog a hand command), why wouldnt you give it the same help by giving it a verbal command or hand signal if you want it to stay? I think we could go round & round in circles with this question - I can see what you are saying as well, but I choose to look at it slightly differently - because I can & I think it makes it easier for the dog, I choose to use an extra command/signal. Neither is "right" cos, as you know in dog training, all roads lead to Rome (probably not a good metaphor, but you know what Im saying ) EFS

I wouldnt be using a lunge lead, waiting til he gets to the end of it & calling him back or trying to lure him with treats, I would be putting him on a really light 20m line made of something like parachute chord etc & standing on it when he takes off on you. When he comes back after hitting the end of the line, give him a high value reward. By ignoring your commands, he's chosing his own consequences, it's not like he doesnt know what the command means. Other than that I agree with Cosmolo on trying an e-collar. Dogs that aren't reliable on their recall are dangerous, not only to themselves, but to other animals, other dogs & other people. Hope you get it sorted out soon .

Cosmolo, yes, I do think it makes it clearer for the dog, epecially in the early stages. Otherwise when you are teaching stays/recall etc especially early on the only physical cue you are giving the dog whether it has to stay or come with you is which leg you move off on & I think that's very difficult for a novice dog (I use novice in the correct sense of the word, not as a trialling class definition). Even dogs who compete in UD classes are usually given the advantage of a hand signal for "heel" & a hand signal for "stay/wait" in their signal only exercises .Some people even give different hand signals for stay & wait (fingers closed vs fingers spread in front of the face) but I think the most important factor is using a completely different verbal command ie I use "stay" said fairly normally but emphasise my "wait" by pronouncing it "Way - t" so it sounds completely different. I dont know why anyone would treat you with distain for not using the command though, that just shows their ignorance IMO. I certainly think it's "different" that some people chose not to use a command, but that what makes dog training interesting - every dog & every trainer is different . I personally wouldnt do it, but hey, as long as it works for you & your dog, that's no one's business but yours . ETA - Leopuppy I just saw your other thread, congrats on Leo's title - well done

To me, the drop is the actual action of dropping to the ground. I use stay to mean "stay in that position until I return to you or release you". I use wait when I am planning on giving another command eg recall, retrieve, waiting until they get in the back of the car etc. I use it in a whole range of situations, not just trialling. I dont like using stay when I want my dogs to move afterwards as I think it gives unclear messages to the dog ie this time I want you to stay & not move, but next time I want you to move. So they either get a "stay" then praise or a release command (mine is "free") or a "wait" & a second command.

Teach = the dog recognises a voice & or hand signal & offers the correct response without luring. Retention = being able to take the dog back to the same place that you taught the command X amount of time later & the dog will once again offer the correct response on voice or hand signal without luring. Proof = when the dog will offer the correct response in any number of circumstances & places. I agree with Myszka & others who mention that once you have "taught a dog to learn" it is often easier for the dog to learn new things. It also applies to things being taught that are related or similar to something that have already been taught. I was very interested in CTD's video of Moses doing the under & over thing whilst she did pushups. One can only assume that it was easier for her to teach that sequence because she has previously taught Moses to jump over her back. Whereas a dog which had never been taught to jump over anything would most likely take many more repetitions to do the same thing. (hope that all made sense )

Train on a step. If he will not creep when you teach him with something in front of him but he creeps when you remove it - you are removing it too soon . ETA - I have a problem which is the opposite, when Jarrah heels & I tell him to drop he folds himself backwards to do the drop leaving his front feet exactly in line with my legs, but the rest of his body far behind mine. So what do I do, the dog is in perfect heel position when he's heeling ie his legs in line with my legs, but once he drops he looks like he's out of position & if I teach him to come forward when he drops he'll be out of position on distance exercises. I think that as long as the dog doesnt actually creep the judge will take into consideration differences in change of movement well thats what my friend whos a judge tells me when I ask her about it )

Phoenix, are you saying that you never ever throw the toy for her? If not, how do you play with her? I may be on the wrong track here, but what I taught Jarrah was that for him to get the reward ie me throwing the toy or playing tug with him, he had to "do something" to earn it. In other words NILF but concentrating on his obsession with the toy. At first it was difficult - not that he wouldnt ever come to me cos he would as long as there wasnt a toy involved - but to get his dinner he had to come & sit & wait on me (helps that he is food motivated as well as toy) & for every time I throw the toy he has to "earn it". When we first got him he would stand away from me eyeing the toy & me & there was no way he was going to come close when there was a chance I may throw it but 3 months later he will do anything to work for the toy including a formal or informal recall, a drop, sit at a distance, a stay etc. If you need to, start by having him on lead & making him come to you, then giving him the reward etc, it may take a while, but if you are persistant (& consistant) it will work . If you want to see the focus my boy has when there is a toy involved have a look for my short video of our dogs & kids doing stays that I posted in here - he doesnt take his eyes off me for even a split second . Sorry I dont know if that's the solution to your problem or not but it has certainly worked for me :rolleyes: . I also agree with Arya's post, even though I did formal stuff with Jarrah ie recall, sits, drops at a distance etc, you can still do it just doing the fun stuff. Just make sure the dog thinks its FUN & that it earns the reward .

That doesnt surprise me at all myszka, my kelpie Jarrah can learn most commands in 2-3 repetitions easily. I was exactly the same as you when I first got him & started teaching him things, I thought "No way!!" but he's proved it time & time again, he is seriously the fastest learner I have ever had. And yes, his retention is A1 (I dont clicker train him btw). Jonty is fairly average, 5-10 reps for most commands.

What she said ^^^^^^^^^^^ :p . And what she said too ^^^^^^^^^^^ :p . Leopuppy, I dont think anyone is saying not to train or that keeping it fun isnt going to get you where you want to go, to me there is a difference between training a puppy steadily to do things at a rate that is suitable for the dog & setting expectations at a realistic level & pushing your pup to do a new thing every day & then being upset with it when it gets confused or seems to take too long to learn something. I think you also have to look at the training methods to see what the "shutdown" (for want of a better word) is going to look like. Jesomil compared to some, CD at 12 months & CDX at 18 months is positively ancient, sounds like you & she did fine .

:D we must be related dogdayz, I think the same thing, I often would come out of the ring disappointed with the heel position on a turn or a slow (to my mind) sit etc & be astounded to see an extremely high score for heeling. I am by far my most harshest critic :p . That is exacty the way I train leopuppy, I expect my dog to work at a high standard from day 1 & dont accept shoddiness. Same with my handling - if for some reason I get into a bad habit or muck something up I expect my instructor to point it out to me (& most of the time they will!). Im not a beginner & I dont expect to be treated as one. Some people dont take criticism well & think it's personal, to me it's something I need to know, because it's the only way I'm going to be the best. And when I say "the best" I mean the best I can be, not necessarily better than someone else - I never go into the ring expecting to win, but I do strive to improve on what I've done before. Sometimes that doesnt happen, sometimes it all comes together & it does & other times I will be able to see improvement in one particular exercise, even if for whatever reason my dog has blown another exercise or worked badly on the day. My aim is to get a high score & for me to be happy with our performance, not necessarily win (if that makes sense). As for the OP question, I wont trial until I think we (as a team) are capable of that high score. I entered a trial that was on last Saturday but I chose not to go because I wasn't happy with his work. It would have been his first trial at 15 months old (but I've only owned him since the beginning of December) & he would have probably qualified, but that wasn't my aim, so I chose not to go. On the other hand I see a huge percentage of people who are happy to go in the ring "to see how it goes". I think I mentioned this in another thread, but Dagboy & I stewarded for my friend who's a judge a couple of weeks ago - she was so appalled at the handling & standard of most of the dogs & handlers that she told them all to go home & read their rule books & not to enter a trial until they knew what they were allowed & not allowed to do . I guess I am lucky, the club that I trained at for many years was extremely dedicated to trialling - we had specialized trialling classes twice/week & a weekly evening for ring runouts all of which was overseen by an extremely experienced senior judge who gave freely & generously of his time to make us the best we could be if we wanted to take his advice .

Actually I thought I did - if you train a dog merely to achieve a title in obedience & can then see no further reason to continue training & trialling, to me that means you are only after the title. Personally I train & trial my dogs because 1. they enjoy it 2. I enjoy it 3. to see if I can better my dog & possibly my highest score 4. if I were ever lucky enough to get a perfect 200 score, I'd still be trialling to see if my dog & I as a team could do it again. But those are just my personal motivations - & for the record I work for obedience both inside & outside of the ring ;) .

;) yayyyyyy for Big Ted!! ;) :D ;) Dogdude, if your only motivation is to get a piece of paper then I guess you would retire the dog - luckily her motivation is more than that .