MrsD

Sorry Tapferhund, it was probably this bit that made me think it ...

:D :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :clap:

You've read my post & the OP incorrectly I think - the OP said the handler had her hands "flat on her stomach" & I said I would never dream of doing a SFE with my hands in that position. As for where the hands being placed contributing to an NQ - if the judge thinks that the handlers hand position has contributed to the dog staying (ie the principle feature of the exercise), then why not? The rules clearly state that if, but for a second signal or command, the judge thinks that the dog would not have done the principle feature of the exercise, then the dog shall NQ. It's a judgement - that's why they are judges . As you said, yes there are judges who certain people don't like & judges who sometimes make crap decisions, but as the OP pointed out, these are all different judges & all different competitors. Hard to believe that all judges are out to get people!

Does a dog get a title after its name just from showing some form of instinct to herd? Dont they have to do anything else? Technically it's not a title, it is merely a certificate which states that you are now qualified for advancement in ANKC herding. (does that make sense? ) They don't have to "do" anything else at that level because it is merely showing instinct.

Wow, congratulations to you & Cash & Minty, well done :p . Where's the video? ;)

no, Im not a judge :p . Just a competitor who doesnt have a problem with judges doing what they are there to do - judging my dog. I expect good work from my dogs & I expect to be penalised if my dog makes a mistake .

Nothing more than the fact that your dog has shown the instinct to herd I guess - this is a trick question, isnt it?

Sorry KK, are you saying that the club are telling you standing with your hands behind your back is a good idea or bad idea? The rules state that any unusual movement or noise by the handler may be considered an extra command or signal. So no, you may not do the hokey pokey in the stays ;) .

You've completely missed the point WMR, its got nothing to do with who's right or who's wrong or who's dog works better than someone elses, but about what is expected in the ring. I read the rules & make sure my dog is at a much higher standard than is expected. I consider myself to be a very good handler & I would never dream of putting my hands on my stomach when I was doing a SFE or thinking that if my dog lifted it's bum in the DoR that it was entitled to a qualifier, but hey, that's just me .

WorkNBCs, as Piper has already said, you may walk through the "gates" with the dog &/or sheep, but you don't have to. Good luck with the PT, sounds like you should do it easily, I doubt you will have trouble with the HIC either, its pretty basic .

I have - & it was at Canberra Royal under an interstate (to me) judge - & both my friend (who's a senior judge up here in Qld) & myself agreed with the judgement! The rules state that your hands should be returned to a "normal" position after giving a signal - putting your hands elsewhere can be considered a second signal. The rules also state if the judge considers that, but for an additional command or signal the dog would not have performed the principle feature of the exercise, the dog shall receive a non qualifying score. Interestingly, when the competitor in Canberra was questioned outside the ring by another competitor about why he didnt just put his hands at his sides or clasped in front, his answer was because the dog wouldnt stay if he did that - so that's not a second signal, now is it? Cant comment on that one - what one person may see as "distinct" may be different to another & it's not up to me to question the judgement as I didnt see it. Lets just say that I never have, & can guarantee I never will, be penalised for that problem :p . Interestingly, my friend & I have very similar thoughts about many of the dogs that we've seen from Victoria - no way would they get their titles up here based on the work we've seen. So who's right? ;)

I so agree with this! And this! I believe that you need to train for a higher standard of criteria than what will be judged in the ring otherwise you are setting both yourself and your dog up for failure, frustration and wasting more money on travel and entry fees. All negative experiences IMO and impact on the nerves and confidence of both the dog and handler. (I'm speaking from personal experience on this one ;) ). I was stewarding for a novice ring at a trial recently where the recall distance was longer than what the rule book called for (rule book says approx 12 meters, actual distance being judged on was around 14-15 meters...I know this because I did a step out measurement when I was placing the markers for the stays. And since 'approx' is not definitive, its open to interpretation by the judge) No competitor actually questioned the distance being judged on until one dog blew the recall by racing off to the side to sniff at something interesting on the grass...all of a sudden there were complaints about the recall distance not complying rules. IMHO this is a training issue and not a judging issue. I don't believe that there was anything unfair about the judges call on this because all the dogs were being judged on the same distance. However, I do agree with the OP that some judges make unfair calls. One that I have witnessed was in a SFE with a small breed....judge NQ'd the exercise because as the handler was leaving the dog the loop in her lead touched the ground. Agree totally with ROM & DogDude! Tapferhund, some judges may be harsh, but some of those examples you gave I'd expect the person & dog to NQ! And if I was a handler on a qualifying score in the same class as them I'd be damn p*ssed off if they did qualify. If you read the rules you will find all sorts of interesting things - the examples you gave certainly broke some of the rules. Might I suggest that you don't ever come to Qld to trial .

Unless Im mistaken that's Judy Allen judging, she judged one of our HIC's a few weeks back. Nice lady . Wow, you had to do so much less than we did for ours ;) pity I didnt get ours on video. As a comparison, the time elapsed for our 3 dogs were 4 mins 39 secs for Jarrah, 3 mins 21 secs for Jonty & 6 mins 28 secs for Ebony. Congrats on Tia's HIC, she looks like she's going well .

I vote for Fido's too - both the puppy shampoo & Free-Itch rinse gets used all the time in this household as they smell lovely .

Sidoney, sorry I missed this yesterday, yes so far all his work has been on sheep & as you said he gets his cue from that. Interestingly the instructor asked us to do the same exercise as I described up there but off sheep about an hour after we'd done it the first time & Jarrah didnt have a clue what I was asking of him & spent the whole time jumping up like a loon trying to lick my face , so you are absolutely correct, the context is very important. As for the sheepherding outfit, maybe I could dress up as a fluffy lamb - that would truly be mutton dressed up as lamb .

If you were to do that at the only club that I have access to, not only would you get pulled up about it on the field, but there'd be no end of bitching about it at committee meetings. Everyone in the class must be doing exactly the same thing at the same time in strict regimental fashion....kind of leads to the prob that WMR mentioned above.

Seriously, the head instructor refuses to let you do something the way you want to do it? (assuming its not something cruel?) Personally I'd change clubs .

God, how long is a piece of string? First 2 dogs were like chalk & cheese, one took forever (because he was downright naughty!), second was really quick. Current dogs - Jarrah is already doing Open ring work like retrieves, drop on recall & broadjump without any problems, but he needs plenty of proofing. He's ready to go into CCD & CD if I can get his sit stay more stable. I've only owned him since December. Jonty started training in Aug last year but hasnt had alot of work since Xmas, Im hoping to have his CCD & possibly CD by the end of the year.

Absolutely, I make sure my dog listens to me, not the instructor by doing what I want to do, when heeling I keeping walking when they say halt, or doing a stand when they ask for a drop etc. I reward my dog when I feel it deserves it, even if I have to do something other than what the instructor is asking for to do so. Similarly if my dog hasnt done something correctly, I will persevere with it & make the dog do it again until it gets it right so I can reward it, regardless of whether the instructor has told the class to go onto another exercise or heel off again etc. I think the reason that most people blindly follow the instructor is because they don't know any other way to train their dogs. Many people dont know how to train an exercise, so they look to the instructor for help. You will find that people who have trained more than 1 dog will probably choose what to do with their dog more, as will someone who reads alot of different books or gets different ideas on how to train, either in general or specific exercises. But most people are sheep & will do it the way the instructor suggests because they dont actually know any other way.

Most of the people in our trialling class at our club are still handling their first dog & don't really have any idea of how to train most exercises, so they take direction from our OIC trainer who runs the class. However there are a couple of us who have trained dogs before, so we make the decisions about what to do with our dogs. For example last night the OIC was making us start retrieves over the jump for Open, most handlers she had to direct & tell them what to do but even though Jarrah & I had never done a retrieve over a jump before, I knew what my dog was capable of (higher standard than she was asking the others to do) so I told her what I was going to do & did it while she watched.

country joe I've got way way too many funny stories about being embarrassed in the ring by my 1st dog, I've posted most of them here before anyway so I wont bore you all again, but being humped in the out of sight stays, running into the next ring & stealing the Open dog's dumbell & running around through all the obedience rings jumping all the jumps are a couple that spring to mind :D .

I think the problem is that obedience (working close to you, the same way as you move) tends to override the dogs natural herding instinct (working away from you, moving the opposite way to you ie balancing), so doing both at the same time could possibly confuse the dog. I think their comments weren't necessarily not to do obedience at all, more not to do it at the same time as the herding . True - but wouldn't that be the same for agility too - working away from you? I was told the same thing with Kinta - to stop all else and just do herding with her... . I agree with you to a certian extent - yes, it does make it *initially* more difficult on the dog as they are now expected to think for themselves rather than wait on you for direction (to a degree). I think this is what they find hard - Leo has done heaps of obed, has no problems 'chasing' the sheep, but has difficulty when we ask him to 'do' something with the sheep as he is uncertian and *wants* direction. But I think that once we overcome that hurdle, any obedience dog can also be a herding dog. There's also the advantage of the younger they meet the sheep the better I think sometimes we underestimate the ability of our dogs to work in varying situations. If you can cope, I think the dogs can cope. I agree totally about your comment earlier btw about the handler being confused & confusing the dog :D . There are lots of handlers out there like that . I presume you mean doing obedience & agility being different, not agility & herding? Perhaps thinking for themselves is also a part of it as you said, I'm not sure, Im just repeating what I was told . It's funny because when we went in the round yard last week the exercise we were to do was teach the dog sides, so right arm out & command & the dog moves the opposite direction ie left, then told to stop, then left arm out, dog moves to the right etc. Jarrah had never done it before & when I put my right arm out he automatically moved towards the right & the instructor immediately said "You've done obedience with this dog, havent you?". But I stopped him straight away when he moved right & told him no & then gave him another right arm signal & he moved left perfectly & proceeded to move in the correct direction & do all his stops about a dozen times in a row. Who said dogs cant adapt? Like I said, Im not sure Im ready to put his obedience on hold right now, he's so close to going in the ring for CCD & CD, I was hoping to put him in the state & national titles in June if I can get his sit stay sorted out, might put it on hold after that .

I think the problem is that obedience (working close to you, the same way as you move) tends to override the dogs natural herding instinct (working away from you, moving the opposite way to you ie balancing), so doing both at the same time could possibly confuse the dog. I think their comments weren't necessarily not to do obedience at all, more not to do it at the same time as the herding :D . ETA - different breeds have different herding styles too, the kelpie style isnt really the same as a sheltie or GSD or BSD for example. I think the kelpie style is less conducive to obedience than many other herding breeds.

I've been told I should only do herding with Jarrah (because he is working so well & has alot of potential) & that I shouldnt be stuffing him up by doing obedience with him . Im not sure if I'm ready to give up obedience with him though .

ML, I didn't now you trained at Logan, it's nice to hear something positive about it as (as you know) I used to train there, but have heard a couple of negative things about it lately. Next time you are down say hi to Lawrie & Laura from me . we went to a herding seminar on the weekend & the boy was the star student, worked really really well in the round yard, the guy running it said if I ever wanted to get rid of him he'd take him - I said no chance .