MrsD

With some dogs if you blow in their face you are likely to get teeth marks in your nose as lots of dogs get agro about that. I found the stupid sticky tape wouldnt stick at all - but I ended up teaching another trick from it .

Im not getting into this debate, but just wanted to say hi noneybur, was nice to meet you on the weekend .

Welcome to my world Cosmolo ;)

Hmmmmm depends on how you look at it. If my dog refused to do the exercise then it would get corrected, the same as I would correct it for anything else. If the dog did the exercise, but was slow for example, I would use encouragement to get it to do better. So is that a yes, or a no? eta, of course assuming that the dog knew the exercise etc etc, I left that bit out, but that's a given in all my training

The click isnt a reward at all, it is merely a marker to "mark" the action or behaviour that you want from the dog. The reward comes after the click. You often throw food when you do free-shaping (to get the dog to move away from the position or action its just offered you), so perhaps that is where it comes from? I only use the clicker for tricks though, so maybe someone who uses the clicker for obedience may be able to answer

Perhaps that is where you & I are different LP - you talk about training, but to me, training isnt building a new fence or keeping the dog confined, it's teaching the dog what is acceptable behaviour & what isnt. Talking about getting through fences probably isnt the right analogy because we (collective "we") should have secure fencing anyway, but in general I wouldnt have any hesitation in using an e-collar to train the dog (after trying other training methods - but mine would be a long-line or similar not building extra fences ).

Muttley, it will be interesting to see what they say. Im going to get a pup from them later in the year . Karen also posted her on Ozherders list, fingers crossed she gets a home from all the exposure .

Hey Muttley, I must have missed it, but is there a reason you think she might be Noonbarra? She looks lovely, hope she finds somewhere who will use her full potential .

Congrats DD, that's a great achievement :laugh:

OT I know, but those who know Mary Ray & Richard Curtis, did you see the pairs routine they did together at the Underdogs Show? It was great!! Mary & Richard's pairs routine

Mary Ray was fab last year, I'll be going again this year, look forward to seeing you again Noels & you too Jules .

KK, we might be interested for the boofhead, she'll eat anything, let me know if you can get it or not, I'd happily try 1 bag at least & see how she goes on it.

If you don't mind it being upside down here is Finn one of our first fosters playing dead . I didnt teach him it, but it's given me another thing to teach Jarrah .

My dogs always work well in obedience because I make it interesting & exciting & very self rewarding, especially by the time you have got to open level. Problem with my old boy was it was *too* much fun so I did have to correct for naughtiness, but very rarely for any mistakes in the actual work. He always got brilliant marks very close to perfect scores for the work he did. But at the beginning of any training, no dog is excited to start with, it's only when they learn what's coming that the penny drops & the excitement takes hold. For an example, a dog who's never been trained with a clicker wouldnt find the sound of the clicker exciting, no matter how many times you clicked it. Only after the dog has built an association with what the clicker means would the dog get excited about it if it were brought out. The association would then carry over to the actual tricks themselves so it becomes self rewarding. Same thing with agility - no dog the first time it sees an agilty course or jump thinks "Ohh how exciting", it's only after the asscoiation is made that the jumping etc becomes rewarding. I think that obedience can be as rewarding as tricks or agility, you just have to help the dog make the association. (did any of that make any sense what-so-ever? ) Cosmo & Dogdude - great posts :rofl:

For me, when the dog does the right thing it always gets the reward, if it didnt, what would be the point of it doing what I ask? I'd smack myself over the head with a heavy object for allowing my dog to be in a position where he can choose to disobey me ;) . You sound like me!! What is your favourite object to hit yourself over the head with though?? ;) Something like this .

Just in the instance of getting the dog completely onto a normal collar - you have to wean them off the weight of the collar so that they will be just as reliable with a normal collar. But like you said - if the owner is happy for it to be permanently on - there wouldn't be an issue I found that if you get the dog used to wearing the collar first for 3 or 4 days they very rarely realise when it's not on or twig that that's where the correction is coming from, well mine didn't anyway, it's not that heavy really & they usually don't even realise it's there.

For me, when the dog does the right thing it always gets the reward, if it didnt, what would be the point of it doing what I ask? I'd smack myself over the head with a heavy object for allowing my dog to be in a position where he can choose to disobey me .

Firstly I have to say I am a big one in believing that, in general, you shouldnt give a dog a command unless you are in the position to enforce it . I used an e-collar (I can hear some people's gasps from here ), the dog was setup to make the choice between doing what I asked or ignoring me - the dog didnt come, so it got a correction & then when it did come, lots of praise & a great game, so I became more fun than whatever it was doing out there when it didnt come. Only took a couple of goes & I got a reliable recall. Jonty I have never had to really do anything with his recall , 99 times out of a hundred he will come immediately, in fact he is a fairly good case of why the correction has to suit the dog, I very rarely have to correct him at all & if I do it's almost always simply a verbal correction. I also tend to think that the more you are the "leader of the pack" the more the dog respects you & is less likely to disobey. This was most definitey the case with my old dog & bitch as well, I simply used a long line on them & tHey never got a chance to get away with it & were very reliable. But I did find the e-collar to be quicker & easier . Pack structure means that dogs constantly "correct" each other - funny, I just had a thought! I was thinking about how alpha dog very rarely corrects dogs way down the pecking order, his biggest threat is from dogs up close to him on the pecking order. So dogs that are the more submissive type (in general) are more likely to be adversly affected by a correction from their alpha ie the owner, whilst a stronger willed dog is much more likely to take notice of an owner who can give alot of guidance & enforces much stricter rules. (Does that make any sense? ) You keep mentioning other animals, as I said before horses are trained using heaps of adversives & physical handling to make them do what you want ie leading by a head collar, picking up feet, horses move away when you use your leg (or hand if on the ground) on their sides, they "give" to the bit & bridle, all dressage manouvres are trained using adversives ie leg or spurs, no positive training there, yet most people dont consider that to be cruel or nasty, do they? eta - I give up you all type too fast for me

Because i'm not talking about the child being told 'no, do it again' - in which case I completely agree with. I'm talking about a child getting smacked for getting a question wrong..... But that's where your arguement is flawed - who said a correction is smacking your dog? You need to use a correction that is appropriate for the dog & what you are trying to teach. If my dog ran away & wouldnt respond to my recall command (when it *knows* what "come" means), then hell yes, my dog is in biiiig trouble, because to me that may save the dogs life in the future. If the dog did something minor, I would probably use a verbal correction - just like if my child got a maths problem wrong (one which he should know how to do). But afterwards, my dogs think they are the best dogs in the world! - cos they get lots of positives for doing the right thing, just so happens that they get corrected for the wrong thing as well . ETA - I think I'll just let Myszka answer from now on, she says what I am trying to say & does it in about a quarter of the time - she obviously types alot faster than me .

Hey Arya, I just thought when I was re-reading some of this thread, when I mentioned taking her to as many trials as you can, I didnt mean just ones you entered, go to ones you havent entered too & do some heeling close to the ring ropes & the gate into the ring, that will quickly show whether it's you & your vibes or the actual ring scenario that is the problem .

Arya - great post, couldn't have said it better myself :rofl: .

And if your dog doesnt come back when he runs off across a road the consequence is simple too .

then why say this? You know the funny thing is that there are plenty of "traditional method" trainers out there who probably don't even give much praise or positive reinforcement like Myszka mentioned with the person she knows. I also know people who have trained like that. I probably give as much if not more "positive" reinforcement when I train my dogs as you do LP, but I choose to also correct the dog when it does the wrong thing. Really poor analogy but take your example above about the child doing the maths question. Imagine the child does the maths question wrong & the parents say "No! Do it again". The child goes "Ooops " then does it again & does it right & the parent says "That's fantastic!!! Lets go out for a milkshake & I'll take you to the movies!". Do you think that the child would try hard to do the maths right the next time or not? My answer to your question of "Why?" is simply that it works for my dogs . (BTW, horses are taught a whole range of things using "corrections" or adversities, can't comment on any others as I've never trained any other animals ) EFS

Because it works for us & our dogs? Dunno why we have to always have these threads - it's like the old saying goes, the only thing that trainer A & trainer B will agree on is that trainer C is doing the wrong thing. You say you don't want to spark a debate, but then you question methods that other people use in a way that implies that you don't think they would (or should) work & imply that any trainer who has the audacity to use a correction owns dogs who are sh*t scared of them & won't work because of that fear. And that is just rubbish. If training the way youdo works for your dogs then that's fine, good for you, Im happy for you. But don't criticise the way other people train - it's their decision. Sorry, I wont comment any more, but I just wanted you to know how much it sh*ts me .

What she said ^^^^^^^^. (except for the prong collar, I've never used one of those :D )