MrsD

Huski has pretty much summed up what I would have said but there are a couple of points I'd like to make. 1. If you have to starve your dog for 3 days for it to be food motivated then you are using the wrong reward! You use what reward your dog likes best, & yes, for a (very very) few dogs that may be the owner's praise. But for the majority of dogs it's either food or a toy. 2. There is a difference between weaning the dog completely off the food/clicker & varying the schedule of reward & being able to get your dog to work a long period of time without the reward. As Huski said, you go to work each day & work for 5 days & then get your "reward" ie pay at the end of a week, same with a dog, I can go out & work my dog for 10 minutes & then take him inside & give him a treat or play. He has been taught that if he does the work he will get a reward at the end of it. Note that playing in the case of Jarrah does NOT necessarily mean that you have to have a specific toy or article, he is happy with a reward of play where it is just playing with me. Play is his preferred reward but I find that he learns better with food, then I switch to play once the behaviour is solid. Whisper on the other hand will play, but food is far more motivating for her. 3. I have no problem with using an aversive if it needs to be used for whatever reason on a dog. In fact I own & use a remote e-collar, 2 anti-bark e-collars & a prong collar. But I would never use one to teach any dance moves. 4. Not having food in your pocket doesn't mean anything to the dog if it's been taught the right way, because the dog is taught that the reward could come at any time & from ANYWHERE, you don't have to have the food in your hand or your pocket or anywhere on you to reward the dog. Use of baitplates is a big part of teaching a dog this, but it's not the only way you can teach the dog that the food doesn't have to be on the handler. 5. Unlike some people who use a clicker, once the dog is learning behaviours & know exactly what the clicker is & means I teach the dog that the click does not mean the end of the exercise. I have taught him that the click means what he is doing right at that moment is correct & the reward is coming but until I deliver it he still has to do what he's been doing. I also bring in the use of a word instead of a click, so I can "click" my dog anywhere, anytime without having a clicker with me. So I have a dog who will work to a cue word but when I give that cue word will not suddenly stop & expect a reward instantly. I also have a dog who will work without the reward being anywhere on me or even close to the dog. And I have a dog that is happy to be rewarded with either food, play or a toy. And herein lies the problem I think - you seem to assume that Delta is positive training but from what I saw described in this thread it's about as far from how I train as using a check chain is. What was described in the first post IMO is not balanced positive training, it's Delta training & there is a huge difference. FWIW, taking what was written in the first post at face value, I don't think it's really in the best interest of the dog or handler either. But used correctly positive training can & will get great results with most dogs.

Thanks Huski - ohhh & lots of training ;) .

We stayed at a great caravan park when we were down there for the Sheltie Nationals a few years back, just about everyone there had dogs because as well as all the sheltie people there was also a training seminar on that weekend at Erskine Park, I think the doggy people almost booked the whole park out . It was about 10 or 15 minutes from Erskine park if that is the area you are looking for. We stayed in a 2 bedroom cabin which was quite nice, you could put your dogs crates on the verandahs they had. I'll see if I can find the name of it for you if that's the right area you want.

I've been thinking about this & I think the problem is that some of the people in this thread don't actually know HOW to train properly with a clicker & with food ie positively. There is a huge difference between luring a dog & training a dog with food in your hand, any half decent positive trainer will tell you that. The first is teaching a behaviour, the second is bribing the dog. Completely different things. Luring works, bribing doesn't. I can vouch, I have seen Huski's dog work & she works very well in drive & she doesn't have to stick something in front of her nose to make her do something. I think huski could probably vouch that Jarrah is the same - how else would I be able to go out in a ring & do a 3 minute freestyle routine in competition ie without food/toy etc? And that's not including the 5 mins we have to be in the marshalling area where we aren't allowed any food/toys etc before we set foot in the competition ring. BTW, when I talk about positive training I am not talking about the stuff that the original poster said she saw at the Delta club, I have never seen Delta trainers or members before but it sounds pretty OTT to me. I mean teaching a dog behaviours, whether it's teaching them to heel, a dance move or to simply sit in a corner on a mat using some sort of reward system & a clicker.

Then they aren't being trained right .

Dances with Dogs Beginner Course. Dances with Dogs Club QLD (DWDCQ) has now finalized details for the first beginners course to be run. The planned course is to be run over a period of 4 weeks, Sunday afternoon 2 to 4 pm, commencing May 9 and continuing May 16, 23 & 30. It is to be held at the CCC grounds, King Avenue Durack. As this is an outdoor venue, if there is a need to cancel due to rainy weather, the session will need to be rescheduled. Cost: $40 for the course, plus membership to DWDCQ (for a single member this is $40 + $25 membership fee and $15 joining fee – please see attached application form for further details). DWDCQ reserves the right to cancel or postpone the course if insufficient registrations are received (full fees would be refunded if this were to occur). There is a maximum of 12 participants. The course will cover clicker training, exercises to obtain and improve focus and attention, and a range of basic moves as well as some transition moves, and putting it all together to music to form a simple routine. If anyone would like an application form please send me a PM with your email address in it & I will send it off to you.

Absolutely agree huski, if you look at all of the dogs that dance they are all trained positively usually with food or a toy. Doesn't mean they get away with murder, it's all about drive & reward. Most of the top scoring obedience dogs both here in Australia & overseas are trained with food or toys. I used to train with a check chain when I did obedience trialling years ago & whilst I still use a martingale on my dog it's for a different reason (he slips his collar). I will still correct him if he does something wrong around the house etc, but there is no way on this earth that I could get him to do what he does when he dances with a check chain, compulsion, correction or harsh treatment. I think the difference here is that most people who train positively will still correct their dog in every day situation, but the people who still train with correction & check chains only see the few that go to the extreme of no corrections etc (as was observed in the first post). And for those who say that you can't get a positively trained dog to respond when they are distracted (by toy/prey/food/whatever) I have seen dogs run across the ground littered with chunkers &/or toys etc completely ignoring them because as huski has said, the drive satisfaction is from the handler, not the things on the ground. I know people who train with compulsion would find it hard to believe, but it does work! Absolutely positively agree (pardon the pun ;) ) . Different dogs, even different breeds need different techniques & you should use the one that suits you and your dog .

I know you said that she seemed to prefer a short coat but I have to suggest a sheltie like a few other people have. They are just the best dog with kids, smart, absolutely gorgeous & easy to train & look after (yes, even the coat isn't that much work if you are just keeping it as a pet). You do have to be careful to make sure you buy from a breeder that has dogs with the right temperament, there are some shelties out there with not great temperaments, outgoing & friendly might not be the breed standard but neither is shy or timid. How could you say no to something like this?

If you haven't been to Durack before, all you do is turn LEFT once you come through the gate & follow the road all the way around & you'll see the buildings. The road veers around to the right, around the back of the buildings, the first one you come to is a groundsman's house, then toilets & a BBQ area & then right next to that is the 2 storey building, just go in the door at the bottom of the 2 storey one & walk up the stairs, you'll see where everyone else is headed anyway no doubt .

Great news GoldenGirl85 . Forgot to put in the first post the seminar will be held in the CCCQ Function Room, it's the upstairs room in the large brick 2 storey building at the back of the grounds.

Huski :D , yes, most use a cheque book. GoldenGirl85, Im not sure about that one, if you'd like to send an email to dwdcq at live dot com dot au & ask, one of the executive will be able to tell you & if allowed will give you bank details.

Sorry I missed the questions, but I see Seita & gsdog2 have kindly answered them for me. Yes, 6.45pm start, there are still places available & Durack is southside, near Oxley.

looking forward to seeing you Seita . Huski as Dagboy said, the night is dog free except a demo dog if Richard wants one (maybe Jarrah, not sure yet). I will be manning the registration desk when you walk in, so make sure you say hi :laugh: . At this stage we are hoping there will be some form of catering there so anyone that comes straight from work can get a bite to eat & there will be tea/coffee etc afterwards.

Just bumping this up again to see if anyone else is interested. Richard is an absolutely fantastic speaker & an amazing trainer & is able to pass his knowledge on in an entertaining & easy to understand way. There are quite a number of obedience people coming to this seminar, remember that Richard does obedience with his dogs as well as DwD, this seminar is about motivation & drive so it will be of value to just about anyone who competes in dog sports. One of the obedience clubs here in Brisbane (Redlands club) has completely closed down their club for the night (it's their training night) so their instructors can all attend this seminar .

But what is it that tells you she loves Eddie the most? I'm playing a bit of devil's advocate here because I don't know you or your dogs to actually see. But I do have a view (and note that I am generalising only and that there are exceptions to the 'rule' - perhaps you are one of them too). And that view is that if the dog perceives itself to be higher in hierarchy (I'm not necessarily talking extremes, potentially just degrees) that dog might also perceive itself as having the role of protector. To protect, they need to be around and have access to 'their' pack. Is the greeting relief by the dog that you're back (because s/he wasn't able to do the job s/he feels is his/hers to do)? This post is not directed to you specifically or solely MrsD. It is for anyone who reads to consider and toy with, as an idea. I just don't want you to think that I'm backing you in to a corner. I'm just exploring with your minds, to see if anyone can recognise in their own dogs whether they've been seeing things the reverse way around from what their dog's potentially seeing. OK, I'm going to try to answer 2 points If we both walked downstairs together, she would go to him - everytime. If we both called her, she would go to him - everytime. If I'm holding her & he walks over she will pull away from me to get to him (if I let her). The "signs" that she "loves" him are so much stronger for him ie if I walk out & pat her, she wags her tail, if he walks out & pats her she goes crazy. Ummm, Im not even sure if what I'm saying makes sense . She clearly wants to be with him far more than she ever wants to be with me. Im not quite sure what you are trying to say here, but with regard to pack heirachy, I have often mentioned to Eddie that I think when it comes to him, Ebony feels she has the role of his "protector". If he walks downstairs & the other dogs come over to him or race around, Ebony will run after them & "tell them off" & she has started to have a go at Whisper (bottom of the pack, Ebony is next dog up) & pin her to the ground. If I walk outside by myself, or with him, Ebony will ignore the other dogs & will come straight over & greet us in a subservient (sp?) fashion. Does that answer any of your questions? (clear as mud? ;) ) ETA - Jarrah is a completely different kettle of fish, Eddie & I were just talking about it & with him it's more a loyalty. It doesn't mater where I am in the house, when he's outside Jarrah can be found outside that room. If I drive off up the driveway, Jarrah will sit on the front steps watching like a hawk until I come back. He never takes his eyes off me, he is just completely obsessed with me. He completely ignores other people, he's not interested in other people, only me. Eddie's comment was that if Jarrah were a person, he'd be a stalker .

Erny, in our case it's more than just who the dog will obey/see's as pack leader. If I ask Ebony to jump, she wants to know how high, half the time if Eddie asks her to do something she just ignores him but she undoubtedly "loves" (to put a human emotion on a dog) him the most. With Jarrah (& Whisper to a lesser extent) it's more about the connection, Jarrah will sit outside at the nearest door to where I am in the house & will watch me like a hawk, if I walk into the kitchen he is all the way around the house & at the back door before I can get there. If he's inside the house & I move he moves with me, if Eddie's sitting with me & he gets up Jarrah will ignore him, he watches my every move & is my shadow if i let him be, I'm the one he will greet first if we come home etc - I don't know how else to explain it really? ETA - having said all that we have made a concious effort to ignore each others dogs because we train & compete together, it's no good if I take Jarrah into a DwD competition & Eddie is sitting at the ring ropes because he's music steward & Jarrah runs off to be with him. Jarrah has never ever been interested in other people outside our family, I am the most important person in my dogs life & as far as he's concerned most other people don't exist .

I have to say, I agree with Jed, yes dogs will pick who they like best all other things being equal, but if one person completely ignores the dog it will usually bond with the person who it has a relationship with. In our house Jonty is the only one who will obey without question anything Dagboy or I say & that's because we both spent time doing stuff with him when he was a puppy. Ebony is definitely Dagboy's dog, but mainly because I made a point of completely ignoring her & she has bonded really well with him (still quakes in her boots if i so much as chage the tone of my voice though, so it's not about leadership ). Jarrah is completely, utterly & unquestionably my dog, Eddie did the ignoring when we got him (as a rescue at 12 month) & he has bonded with me like glue, at one stage he would completely & totally ignore anything Dagboy said, so he started feeding all the dogs & doing TOT with Jarrah in particular & now he will obey commands etc, but is still totally my dog. Whisper is bonded with me too because Dagboy did the ignoring thing, being a BC she isn't so arrogant as Jarrah & will listen to Dagboy, but clearly is my dog. Funny because I was talking about something similar to Dagboy yesterday about the kids - Jonty has always loved M & will generally do as M tells him but will completly ignore C whereas Jarrah will listen to C & do as he's told or do tricks for him but will ignore M. And Whisper will totally ignore both of them .

I've seen this before, he may look like Farmer Brown, but he can certainly train a dog or 2 ;) As for them being frightened, there is no sign of fear in any of those dogs, they have their tails up & wagging & look happy doing the tricks. From someone who trains tricks, you can't *make* a dog do things like that, they have to want to do it & frightening them isn't going to help in any way shape or form, you have to use positive methods to train behaviours like the ones those dogs display .

Have you tried a spray bottle with water in it? I can sympathise, whilst mine don't ever bark while crated etc Jonty has become a barker when there is excitement happening (or he *thinks* there is something exciting happening!) & it triggers his drive & despite my best efforts his barking has become out of control. I have just invested in a bark collar for him, I'm pretty sure it will work, well I hope to god it works, not sure what I will do if it doesn't.

I wonder why they kept sweepstakes when CCD was introduced in that case? Judges training I suspect as they run a sweepstakes exactly like they would a trial & judges training for Open & UD (& UDX now? not sure about that) also judge at sweepstakes so they have practice at juding during their training. I'm guessing that they havent changed it to include CCD because CCD can sometimes be a bit of a train wreck & it's not compulsory. And kathq & huski are absolutely correct, I have stewarded in CCD before & the standard of some dogs (& handlers for that matter) is absolutely appalling & there is no requirement that anyone entering to have been to an obedience club or even read the rules for that matter. We had handlers in the ring who didn't know that you weren't allowed to talk to your dog or call your dog up when you were heeling, didn't know that you weren't allowed to touch your dog apart from between exercises & we even had one woman who biffed her dog in the side of the head because it wasn't watching her when she was heeling (& she did come from a club!). It's a jungle out there :D . ETA - sorry to the OP, we seem to have draged the thread completely off track ;) .

You are allowed 2 AR dogs, but they must both be registered on the AR at the same time. I have been told that at the moment there is nothing to stop you from transferring an AR registered dog into the name of someone who has had an AR dog before, but you yourself can't register the dog on the AR, but haven't tried it out myself. I personally don't mind the AR rule itself (& think it's a wonderful improvement on the draconian days under the dog nazi Ray Underwood), but wish they could make an exception in the case of rescue dogs ie you may register subsequent dogs on the AR as long as they come from a recognised rescue organization. Also, WRT sweepstakes, you only need 150 points or more in a novice sweepstakes to be able to go into novice. The idea originally was to give the trainee judges "real" competitions to judge plus it stopped handlers who had no idea what they were doing & dogs that weren't anywhere ready from clogging up the novice ring at trials. Now we have them all in CCD instead .

I was going to say exactly the same thing as Seita, I doubt any of the traditional obedience schools would be worthwhile. VIP are great & that is where I train, so I can vouch for them .

Hi Beth, whilst not actually having had experience with the club themselves, as a member of the Dances with Dogs Club Queensland I have had a lot of contact with a few of their members/executive (Trevor Telford & Coral Pethers are 2 of them) & I can only say good things about them in respect to the support they show to DwD as a sport as well as to the competitors. Like I said, probably not a lot of help to you, but I thought I'd say it anyway .

Hesa, yep, it was that long ago, hard to believe isn't it? And yes, of course I remember Panda's video, you were the one who showed me what doggy dancing was .

I've only just seen this thread (don't come into the Training forum very often), but if I'm correct you sent us an email from the website (they come to my OH)? If by chance it wasn't you (or there is anyone else who is interested in DwD), next Saturday evening we have a trial on at Mt Gravatt showgrounds (starts at 5pm) if you'd like to come along & have a look at the sport. As for training, I don't know where you are but the DwD club here in Brisbane is starting beginner classes in May. I personally train at VIP, they have both beginner & advanced classes on a Tuesday night. There are also a few obedience clubs around who have some members who do DwD, Pine Rivers & Redlands are 2 that spring to mind but I don't think they have any formal classes, just members who get together to train. Hesa, we are just soooooo excited about Richard coming to Brisbane, you'll remember that we went to see him in Sydney. He is doing an evening seminar about drive & motivation at Durack on Wed the 21st April & then the 2 day workshop at Camp Tailwaggers on the 24th & 25th. I'm pretty sure the spots with dogs are long gone for the weekend workshop, but I'm sure there will be spots available for spectators, if you are interested CollieHound just email Ann at CampTailwaggers. Or contact the DwD club for the Wednesday evening seminar, there are still places left for that one. ETA - if you come along to the trial next Saturday make sure you come & say hi, everyone is very friendly & will be only too happy to let you know what's going on etc if you ask. I was entered in Intermediate Freestyle but not sure if I'll be competing now & may not have Jarrah with me, but if you look for the music man that's Dagboy my OH, he'll be able to pass you along to either me or someone who can give you a run down on how it all works .