abed

Ideally, we should be able to own and enjoy a dog abiding by the laws in place and everything should be fine, but unfortunately in this world we live, is not always the case. Roaming and off leash dogs are a major problem where I live is getting worse which takes away the pleasure of walking your dog when on the defensive even when other dogs owners are present. The amount of times with approaching dogs and owners I am straining to see if the dog is leashed as the owner smells the roses on another planet not watching what's going on. A neon sign illuminates above the owners head that say's, "I can't control my dog" and sure enough the dog sees mine, it's off leash and over it charges towards us with the owner in tow yelling and screaming at their dog , but consistant with this thread, a lot of these charging dogs are aggressive and looking for a fight I have a slight buffer personally owning GSD's where I don't have to worry too much about a loose dog causing mine death, but every time this has happened to me, I am thinking if I had a small dog fearing what happened to this little JRT, what a terrifying experience, it's unimaginable the terror that this women went through and the result of what began as a simple walk with your dog :D My middle GSD is not of perfect temperament and can be human and dog aggressive........I know that and although he is well obedience trained, safety with this dog is TOP priority in our lives at ALL times. You can own dogs safely that have aggressive tendencies, but you have to identify it and manage them accordingly and there is no excuse for default IMHO.

Resource guarding IMHO is genetic with different levels from almost none to serious aggresssion. It's not hard to raise a dog safely around food that has a low level of resource guarding and think you have done a wonderful job in the leadership stakes, but raising a dog that is a genetic resoruce guarder who will react in aggression is a different story as the feeding regimes that work on a low level dog does not mean it will work on all. People tend to pat themselves on the back with conditioning a behaviour that the dog doesn't genetically have

Excuse me Huski, can you provide an explanation for a necessity to associate me with something written on another forum other than "stirring the pot". These are all public forums, "anyone" can read something here and make a post somewhere else word for word in they wanted to............it could be you writing in other forums for all we know

Care to enlighten me what you are talking about please MissMaddy, I simply asked for a better understanding of the situation which you provided :D

To be honest MissMaddy, your posts are confusing as to what the situation is to receive anything of value other than suggesting a behaviourists consultation???. The 4 year old GSD is insecure around other dogs and you couldn't have her off leash until Ecollar training meaning what, she would run away from other dogs and you couldn't catch her, or she would attack them, but she is apparanty not dog aggressive according to what you have told us, but you are concerned with a fight breaking out between her and the Rotty pup which doesn't really paint a logical picture of the siuation IMHO:confused: Would I be correct in saying, the GSD is ultimately dog aggressive and was the reason for the Ecollar training as she was untrustworthy around other dogs and could lash out from insecurity and given her history, she is causing concern displaying aggressive posturing towards the Rotty pup and you are concerned that she has the potential to nail the pup if things got nasty between them???. No, she is NOT dog aggressive, and in no place did I ever say that. She is insecure when meeting new dogs, and avoids confrontation at any costs (not taking off, but gives off insecure, and sometimes defensive body language). The issues we had with other dogs off lead was her going into prey drive and chasing them, for example if they were chasing a ball. She would not "nail" them, but also would not come back. This obsession became so bad that I couldn't get her focus off the running dog even with a strong correction on lead. I knew no better when she was a puppy than to allow her to obtain drive satisfaction from doing this, but after consulting with behaviourists we corrected this problem with the e collar. Her working level on the dogtra was obtained with no distraction, so there was no aversive stimuli to test her "nerve" with in obtaining this. I have not done e collar training with the younger GSD or the rotty, so I'll be very interested to see what their working level is. The reason I was worried about a fight now is; 1) 2 bitches together, and having heard of so many stories of fights wanted to make sure we never go there 2) they had a small "tiff" and I want to make sure it never goes further, however, I see now that in my tiredness of the end of a long and busy night at work I probably set them up for it. 3) After this tiff, both girls were a bit wary of each other, and did a small amount of posturing very soon after (but it was more that they were unsure of each other than challenging), but this seems to have all stopped and the rotty gone back to her earlier submissive demeanor since toughening the boundaries. I was also picking up on much more subtle changes which seem to have improved as I said. I'm sorry if my posts have been confusing, as I said I've been on night shifts, and most of them were written after having finished work, so I realise some may have not made much sense. Thank you everyone for your great suggestions, they've given me some great ideas to not only manage these dogs in regards to what I was initially worried about, but also managing them so the place is less chaotic with 3 big dogs around. :D Thanks for that, I understand where you are coming from now

To be honest MissMaddy, your posts are confusing as to what the situation is to receive anything of value other than suggesting a behaviourists consultation???. The 4 year old GSD is insecure around other dogs and you couldn't have her off leash until Ecollar training meaning what, she would run away from other dogs and you couldn't catch her, or she would attack them, but she is apparanty not dog aggressive according to what you have told us, but you are concerned with a fight breaking out between her and the Rotty pup which doesn't really paint a logical picture of the siuation IMHO:confused: Would I be correct in saying, the GSD is ultimately dog aggressive and was the reason for the Ecollar training as she was untrustworthy around other dogs and could lash out from insecurity and given her history, she is causing concern displaying aggressive posturing towards the Rotty pup and you are concerned that she has the potential to nail the pup if things got nasty between them???.

But what are you actually punishing? If behaviour occurs in response to a stimulus, and the stimulus is your cue, and the dog responds by ignoring it, how can you be sure the cue was a stimulus at that moment at all? Perhaps what you have punished is looking at a person across the road, or sniffing an interesting scent. If you suppress responses to those stimuli, then mightn't an observed improvement in response to your cue simply be a result of most of the usual distracting stimuli now being associated with aversives? A cue from you may even take on the role of a safety signal, being one of the few things that aren't associated with punishment. I'm sure you see improvements with this method, but I question your reasoning why. As for nerve... I think it's an excuse. Whether a dog can "take" a tougher punishment or not has no bearing whatsoever on whether I choose to use a punishment or not. I know exactly where both my dogs' thresholds lie, and if I chose to use a punishment on either I would take that into account in choosing which punishment to use, how to use it, and when to quit. But just because my younger dog has a higher resilience to punishments than my older dog doesn't mean I punish my younger dog more. I don't "correct" either of them, and I don't find that I have a lot of trouble with reliability. My dogs are as reliable as my criteria are strict. I understand what you are saying Corvus, but I have never found a conclusive finding to the concept of punishing the wrong behaviour. Many times I have corrected a dog for ignoring a "come" command when sniffing and interesting scent, but in doing so, hasn't degraded the dog's ability to track in a working role or go into sniffing avoidance fearing a correction. I have corrected dogs heavily for ignoring a "leave it" command when focused on a decoy or a person across the street, but the "who's that" command for the dog to re-focus doesn't reduce the dog's intensity or alertness. Dogs are opportunists I believe, and given the opportunity to disobey for greater reward than compliance, they will take it if they can get away with it. Handler fallout from applying punishments was largely a fear campaign used by positive trainers as a reason for choosing their training methods as a marketing exercise that worries people to the point of never applying a punishment on that basis which from my expereicne is completely over exaggerated and usually happens with heavy handed handlers of soft dogs. Fallout isn't a result of applying a punishment IMHO, it's the result of applying a punishment that exceeds the dog's nerve strength in other words, a training error. Generally though, the higher the nerve strength, the greater the level of punishment required to cause an effect which can be measured in numbers with an Ecollar. The OP told us that her dog works at a level 7 on a Dogtra Collar. My older boy works at 15, the middle one at 25 and my full working line dog at 75 which demonstrates the difference in nerve strength versus an aversive stimulus.

I have never felt the Pitbull situation was met with a great deal of intelligence from the onset. When the hammer began to fall on the APBT the breeders and enthusiasts instead of arguing about needed IMHO to have got together and formed a solution to get rid of the Pitbull terminology altogether. Years ago they could have swung the Amstaff theme into place easily and just had a working line version of the Amstaff and got on with life. They probably would have had to register some ABPT's under Amstaff pedigrees initially, but generations down the track today it wouldn't matter, breed preserved, no BSL issues, no Pitbulls in Australia concept, too easy

I think far fewer behaviours are suitable for punishment than most people seem to. I think that most behaviour is not discrete. One behaviour kind of bleeds into another and I am very leery of punishing something when it could at that very moment be morphing into something else that hasn't become apparent to me yet. I don't like to punish a behaviour that I am making an assumption the dog is entirely focused on. It bothers me to think I might be accidentally punishing something else instead, or creating a negative association with something else the dog is aware of that I am not at that moment. In my mind, a behaviour that is suitable for punishment should be quite discrete and absorbing. Like, if I can distract the dog from it and he doesn't go right back to it immediately, I don't want to punish it. I don't really need to, because if that's the case I can reinforce an incompatible behaviour instead. Abed and I will have to agree to disagree on whether there is fallout for punishments if they are done correctly. To me the question is judging what the fallout is likely to be and whether I can live with it. There is nothing worse in training than deciding I can't live with the fallout after I've already created it. Fallout has a lot do with the genetic nerve of the dog too. Working dog trainers/handlers prefer dogs with "hard nerve" which is often misconstrued as meaning tough and aggressive........it means resilience to aversive stimulous and the faster the dog recovers from aversion, the harder the nerve platform of the particular dog. This is where I have found a lot of pet dog training goes wrong with working breeds worrying about fallout with hard nerved dogs. Any GSD, Rottweiller, Belgian Shephered and some Labradors, Jack Russell's etc can have extremely hard nerve and can take a good correction in the learning phase of training. It amounts to the trainer having the ability to assess the dog correctly in application of the most suitable training regime IMHO

Apart from that, the premise also has a flaw. We cannot say that we have removed a dog's desire for rushing through a door or jumping a fence just because we have punished it. We have punished that behaviour, not the "desire" to do it. Big difference, especially when you are talking about dogs who can think up new ways of solving their problems, and especially in the context of dog aggression (this thread). One of my dogs was trained not to jump the veggie garden fence. The next time the ball rolled under it, she simply ripped the wire off it Is it? What if you lead a dog into a situation where it can't or doesn't know to pay attention to your cue and then you punish them for "ignoring" you? I've never known where to draw the line. If you choose to punish a dog, do it with reducing the unwanted behaviour in mind - not as some sort of anthropomorphic disciplinary action for an assumption you have made of a non-verbal animal. Punishment is about ignoring a known and conditioned command. Some argue that in some circumstances the dog doesn't understand the command or doesn't hear the command.........perhaps, but after receiving punishment for disobeying, the hearing miraculously improves..........I would argue that the dog in the circumstances made the choice to disobey, as the distraction was of higher value than the handlers request. Having said that, you could have a situation where a dog has been taught to sit with a food or toy reward and conditioned to be shown the food or toy, told to sit and rewarded for compliance which becomes the "game" or the format of the exercise which the dog has done 100 times. The owner then takes the dog down the street on leash,no food or toy and commands "sit" and the dog disobeys???. My belief here is that although the dog has sat on command 100 times with a food or toy reward, the dog has learned a format, "you show me the reward, I sit, and you reward me", but the dog has not effectively been taught to understand that the physical "sit' is the essence of the exercise. To punish the dog then would be unfair IMHO. If on the other hand, the dog will sit on leash on command, knows the exercise and physical requirement having done that 100 times but in one instance, the dog disobeys the sit command by focusing on a distraction across the road, I would then provide a leash correction for disobeying Actually,the dog does hear the command when distracted thinking about it more deeply: My format to a punishment is a command, "sit" dog disobeys I follow with "NO" then a correction. Now, often the dog will sit on the 'NO" command to avoid the correction. If he didn't hear the sit command intitially, why did he sit on the no, why didn't he drop, shake hands, or offer another known behaviour??? He sat to avoid a correction and heard you the first time by giving the correct response hearing the NO command and avoiding what comes next for non compliance.

.A good example of behaviour extinction with mechanical barriers is the front door. 99% of the time the front door is closed and the dog doesn't bother with it. Open the door and the dog is out running down the street So, having a closed door as the default hasn't taught the dog to respect the door line and stay inside automatically???. The dog has to be trained to respect the door line and exhibit a particular behaviour when the door is opened. Management of the dog's instinct to run out the door by keeping the door closed hasn't provided reliable obedience, sure the dog doesn't get out, but the behaviour to get out is only managed and is essentially unreliable. To test that model, open the door and see what happens???. IMHO if the result needs to be a dog that won't cross the door line and escape reliably, managing the notion to escape with a closed door doesn't reinforce the desired behaviour or teach the dog stay inside the house by default???. As a dog handler, the dog has to trust your judgement and make a call in the dog's best interests. I disagree if done properly that punishment causes fallout, infact I believe it's quite the opposite. The dog wearing an Ecollar for example, the front door is opened and out he goes, the handler commands "NO, HERE", the dog ignors the command and the handler applies a stimulation for disobendience. The handler told the dog "NO" to prevent the aversive, the dog chose to ignor and suffered an unpleasant experience as a consequence. The dog when done properly, doesn't think the handler has done something nasty to him, the dog learns that the handler is trying to protect him from aversion and obeying the handler results in the best outcome and learns to trust the handlers judgement to make the right call for the dog. Where fallout occurs as a good example is jump training which is something trained to extreme often in working dogs. You set the dog up for success so that if you command "jump", the dog has confidence that he/she can perform the manouver successfully. If you command "jump" where the dog miscues or attempts a jump too advanced for it's experience level, slips, falls or hurts it'self, the dog then doesn't trust the handlers judgement and will often set the dog back with hesititation or avoidance and fallout. The dog thinks, you told me "jump", I did that and hurt myself.........why did you let that happen to me???. Leading a dog into a situation of failure where it suffers and aversive is far different than a dog suffering an aversive when handler has commanded an alternative in the dog's best interest and he/she has chosen to ignor it IMHO ;) This situation is very obvious with security dogs worked by different handlers or a dog that has a new handler. Under the control of one handler the dog trusts, the dog's performance is outstanding. With a new handler the dog is often half the dog it was until the trust and bond is established for confidence to perform tasks of extreme nature which the dog has been trained to perform. This doesn't show up as often with a sporting dog where jumps and manouvers are over a set course, the dog knows the routine and has confidence to perform it successfully under the control of any handler virtually. On the street where a dog has to work in a different environment on a daily basis like a police dog for instance, handler trust is absolutely essential for extraction of the dog's maximum potential.

I don't think that's what any one here has said and yet it seems to be taking that twist by some meandering of interpretation, I think. Having respect/leadership does assist with being able to manage the dogs. I agree Erny

That's virtually the same result I had with my middle GSD with the Ecollar in similar circumstances What Dogtra are you using may I ask, is it the 127 level model???

I have one myself and she will take a sleeve, but it's just fun. Not many working-line dogs in Tassie. No, there isn't many in Tassie, that's where your name came up, the trainer did have their own dog I recall in the conversation ;) Sleeve work is fun, just a big game of tug and the dogs enjoy it too

No, I only offer services in my area of competence. Have I missed something, are these security or protection trained dogs from working lines? I thought they were show dogs. I heard that you were experienced with working lines GSD's and thought perhaps you may conduct protection training in that case.

Okay, but how do you guarantee consistency? My experience when I was dealing with this was with a much softer dog and a verbal interruption was sufficient. She had very good bite inhibition and she was not trying to start fights, just snarking at my pup. Poor little guy could hardly do anything without getting snarked at. So as long as I was aware of her at all times, I could stop it, but I just could not be aware of her at all times. Sometimes it would happen behind me, or when I was in another room, or when I had my attention on a book, or the tv, or talking to someone. There was no way for me to be consistent enough to change the behaviour. In the end I had the most success with giving her more attention and managing situations where I knew she was likely to get snarky so she couldn't get at the pup. Did it teach her consequences? No. But teaching her consequences didn't address the problem, and this did. It didn't take a long time. The effects were instantaneous. That's the beauty of nailing the emotional drive behind a behaviour. I don't really buy the "dogs need to learn consequences" argument. Why let them fail so they can learn they did? Why not just concentrate on not letting them practice behaviour you don't want in the first place? Then it doesn't ever become a problem. Corvus, when your dog responded to a verbal interruption and you could call her away from the pup, I don't see that teaching her that getting snarky with pup is an unwanted behaviour without a consequence for doing so. Depending on the dog's temperament, it may be a NO, GRRRR, verbally or stim from an Ecollar, IMHO the dog has to learn that a particular behaviour isn't tolorated so the rules are black and white. You can manage a behaviour with diversion and luring and sometimes it works depending on the situation, but I don't think it's as reliable in the crunch as a double reinforcer where the dog has learned the good and the bad. Another scenario could be a dog trying to climb the back fence and another couple of inches to go and the dog has hooked onto the fence top and over. You could manage it by extending the fence higher, placing a barricade in front of the fence to prevent the dog reaching the fence etc and you have stopped the dog climbing "that" fence, but have you stopped the dogs desire to fence climb...........I would say no???. I remember where a fence climbing escape artist got his front paw wedged between a broken picket and was hanging there by the leg and a next door neighbour heard his cries in pain, ran over and freed him from the fence, he was sore but ok. That's an extreme experience of aversion to fence climbing, but that dog never again tried to climb a fence or escape from the yard. He wouldn't touch a fence with anything but his nose afterwards so he learned a consequence for that behaviour and YES it fixed the problem instantly. If we didn't provide a negative consequence for trying to climb a fence, apart from managing the behaviour mechanically, how would you condition and train the dog not to fence climb with positive motivation???. Bit off topic from aggression, but it's relevent as a reconditioning process of unwanted behaviour.

Be a bit hard selling someone an APBT with papers when, if they read the papers it says Amstaff There are a number of APBT registries (legit ones) in the USA - and they will register dogs bred outside the USA so yes it is perfectly possible to register APBT's with a legit registry - and just as easy to make your own papers which truthfully show the dogs ancestry. It doesn't require an organisation to keep track of breeding stock. Imports - wouldn't really fancy your chances of getting juvenile/adult APBT's from the USA through quarantine, but US bloodlines from NZ, really not a big deal - can you tell the difference between an 8 week old APBT puppy and an 8 week old SBT puppy??? (Personally I think I could, but not many in AQUIS would be able to when they couldn't identify my full grown bitch - a specialist BIS winner!) What I heard, the pups weren't sold as Amstaffs and the people buying the APBT's knew they were restricted and the breeder provided an additional service to satisfy the legislation and reduce the likelyhood of breed recognition issues with an unpapered dog.

Yes, I'm well aware of this However is there a breed registery for restricted breeds in Australia though with the current BSL laws, being that (according to most state laws) they cannot legally be bred, sold or aquired? American Pit Bull Terriers have their own registry in America. Most of the dogs, even if born and bred in Australia, are registered with that registry. APBT owners have never been interested in the ANKC as a registry, the APBT registry in America began years before. There are also 3 major registries in the USA - 2 are pretty dogdy though - but APBT can be registered there in different registries. abed It is possible. There are dodgy people out there. I doubt that it is widespread, as most Amstaff breeders are aware of the multitude of problems this could cause all Amstaffs. It's easy enough to tell lies to breeders, and it's easy enough to deal with breeders who don't care. If this practice is ever proved, I think we can kiss Amstaffs goodbye, they will be banned in a nano second by the government. There was supposedly a GSD breeder a few years back used to put litters up against the wrong parentage and breed unregistered dogs and had their prefix cancelled in the end when caught out so the story went at the time???. When there is legislation issues with the breed, a stunt to keep them safe could be a motivator they justify perhaps???.

Who is taking a "she'll be right" attitude? Your experience seems to be limited to your own situation, and if you've got a handle on it then I applaud you for that, but that's not a very broad perspective and assumes a lot. Keeping in mind that this is an "internet diagnosis" (not a real one, and something that so far I have otherwise avoided), it appears that we have three normal dogs with no bite or serious fight history. How do we end up with all three dogs in muzzles and a cautious hand hovering over the remote with the stim turned up to 100?! That's doesn't sound like "calm, assertive leadership" to me, no wonder the dogs are anxious too. What happened to waiting politely for attention, long-downs in a group, recalling one dog at a time, manners around food bowls and all the stuff normal dogs are capable of without getting their knickers in a twist? Good manners, deference, learning how to get satisfaction without aggressive displays (that are almost certainly just displays, intended to avoid an actual confrontation)? Knowing that you aren't going to miss out. Knowing that the world doesn't end if another dog gets some attention. Knowing that your walk will come later. Not getting everyone too excited to think, having an "off switch", having self control despite whatever else is going on. Hardly "she'll be right", but not the other extreme either. Some dogs are abnormal. They need to be muzzled, or separated, or corrected. Sometimes they learn to be this way - something their owner did, something that happened by accident, or a bad mix in the "pack". Thankfully this is a fairly small percentage. If the OP has a dog or dogs like this then she needs a face-to-face consultation with someone able to make that call, not internet advice. Anxiety and aggression breed more anxiety and aggression. It starts from the top and trickles down. If the leader isn't confident, calm and in control - no-one else is either. Not the only way it happens, but a good way to accelerate an issue if one is brewing! Everything you have explained Aidan takes time and that level of conditioning isn't going to happen in the next 30 minutes is it??? So in the mean time if aggression is brewing, it needs to be addressed if preventing a fight is the desired outcome..............that's what I am talking about with muzzles IF the dogs are not separated or the OP is not in the position to break up a fight if one arises. A dog can loose it's cool in milliseconds and because a fight hasn't occurred yet when aggression is lingering, doesn't provide a guarantee that fight won't occur. I am getting the impression that because the dogs haven't fought to date, you believe the aggression is unlikely to escalate before the conditioning processes take effect from adequate training which can take months, is that correct???. Please correct me if my interpretation is wrong???. Out of interest Aidan, do you also inlcude the training of security and protection dogs in your services???.

Yes, I'm well aware of this :D However is there a breed registery for restricted breeds in Australia though with the current BSL laws, being that (according to most state laws) they cannot legally be bred, sold or aquired? I have been told on occasion that some are registered as Amstaffs which I guess wouldn't have been a difficult process. If there is any truth in it, an APBT breeder would only have to buy a pair of Amstaffs on main reg or use a friends papers against an APBT litter for a legality aspect. The ANKC would be none the wiser, neither would the ranger on a breed enquiry.

If you have reinforced the good stuff to fluency, why would you have any misbehaviour? Because the stuff of higher value to the dog than the reinforcers have provided cause the misbehaviour generally. We routinely work with "stuff of higher value" using only +R, it's only a problem if it's dangerous and fluency can't be achieved quickly enough. It depends on the individual dog too..........one of mine of the highest prey drive is the easiest dog to train using drive to condition the responses I need, absolutely no comparison to one of my others who doesn't have the same value for my offerings.

The Pig in Mud doors are brilliant, I have had one for 5 years. They are actually Idealpet doors from the US, but since Kramar took over Pig in Mud, supply of the Idealpet door has diminished and replaced by a similar type but of inferior quality in the flap assembly I thought???.

If you have reinforced the good stuff to fluency, why would you have any misbehaviour? Because the stuff of higher value to the dog than the reinforcers have provided cause the misbehaviour generally.

As far as I know, these dogs are not fighting and I would hope that any behaviourist MissMaddy seeks out will be interested in keeping it that way. You seem to be discussing a hypothetical situation that does not accurately represent the issues relevant to this thread. Have these dogs fought? I use muzzles, but I won't use a muzzle to enable someone to continue putting their dog into situations that lead to the dog learning more unwanted behaviours. Biting stops when a muzzle on, but learning doesn't. The point is Aidan, aggressive posturing can escalate fast and it happens when you often don't expect, so IMHO you need to be prepared unless the dogs are separated. Forget behaviours learned or otherwise as whilst the dogs can interact together even under supervison a fight can break out quickly, so hypothetically you can take precuations or have the "she'l be right" attitude because a fight has yet to occur I guess

Labs are gundogs and a good Lab should be genetically sound to fireworks. Labs, Golden Retrievers etc scared of fireworks are the result of dogs in their ancestories that shouldn't have been bred essentially.