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Hi Am, I've read that dogs who have a short snout in relation to their head size have lower scenting ability and the longer the snout, the better the scenting ability. When I originally read this, I was thinking in terms of pugs etc, but I guess that the staffy being somewhere in the middle might also be affected? I don't know of any staffies that track, although I have seen a staffy take part in scent discrimination and seek back in the ring. The staffy that I've seen is very old though and did have problems with these exercises. It seems like you say...she was trying, but just not getting there with any reliability. Having said that, I have a friend that tracks with a Cav who does quite well. Maybe the way that I taught my girl might help. I used to let her watch me prepare her breakfast, then I'd lock her in the shed while I took her breakfast for a walk down the paddock and hid it behind a tree. Then I'd let her out of the shed to find her breakfast. She didn't get breakfast until she found it. I also used to put treats on the articles. Initially there were a lot of articles on the track and she could see them so she wasn't really tracking. As she got better at going to the articles to get the treats, I reduced the number of articles and put more distance between them and her nose went back to the ground to help her find the articles. I then stopped placing the treats on the articles and started carrying them with me so that I could mark and reward when I found the articles. Maybe this will help? Give your dog a visual cue with the articles and then fade the visual? I think that when you don't have a partner to train with, using articles straight up helps because the reward comes at the article and helps the dog to know when the exercise stops? I also have a friend that trains by himself and he says that the exercise stops for reward and restarts at each article. He reckons that this helps because he can verbally reward at each article during trial and restart the dog by command, but also its easier for him to teach the required article identification behaviour, which for him is a sit at the article. Also using lots of articles straight up gives the dog plenty of opportunity for reward and encourgagement in the learning phases of the exercise. I think its on the leerburg site where there is an article comparing footstep tracking with tracking in drive. The basic point that they made that really seemed to apply to my dog is that working to find lots of treats on the ground is really hard work and a lot of dogs don't have the stamina for this, they pointed out that the dogs work very slowly without much enthusiasm, although they do seem to be more methodical workers when their training is complete. My dog would just lose interest with this way of teaching because she was under pressure to find every single piece of kibble and she'd stop tracking. However, when we worked up to a finding a few articles with her breakfast at the end, she was gathering all the information she needed on the fly and she seemed much more enthusiastic. An observation that I made with my dog is that if her breakfast was at the end, she'd use the kibble and treats on the articles to let her know which way to go but she wouldn't stop to pick up any of the treats on the way. My initial training with her was free form...no harness or lead. I wonder if I'd had a harness or lead on her I would have confused her by guiding her back to kibble on the track? By hanging around tracking trials I'd heard lots of converstations about the confusion caused by the wrong signals being sent down the lead and since I was a newby, I decided to leave the possibility for that confusion out of the equation in the initial training I didn't put a lead or harness on her until she was working with confidence and reliability. I guess this helped her because she never got into the habit of relying on me if she lost the track....she had to work to find it. And I think it helped me because I had confidence that she could find it so I was more in the mind set to follow the two most frequently heard things that I've heard at trials....'Trust your dog', and 'Just go with your dog'. I've also read that training of a late afternoon when the ground temperature is higher than the air temperature can help a dog out because under these circumstances the scent on the ground is rising to meet the dog. Another tip I've heard is that if there is a breeze, lay the track into the breeze so that when you put your dog onto it, the breeze is bringing the scent of the track to the dog....just little things to help when you're first teaching a dog so that you make it as easy as possible for them to learn in the beginning stages of training. It may mean that your dog air scents to a degree, but as the tracks get older/more complicated I haven't had a problem with my dogs nose going back to the ground.

More by Dunbar: Good Little Dog Book: A Puppy Training Guide How to Teach a New Dog Old Tricks. ETA: Although I've read a lot of books, and while I haven't read some that are listed here, what I'm coming to realise is that while the theory may sometimes be sound, sometimes the training exercises given have weaknesses....for my application anyway. I think this is for 2 reasons....a book cannot take into account all the variables between dog/handler combinations and also if you follow an exercise that is given by a book and its still not working, the book can't answer why its not working for you.

If you can get a hold of a copy of 'How Dogs Learn' by Burch & Bailey, there is a chapter on the history of obedience training in that.

Just a slight point to clarify where I'm coming from, a marker is trained differently to a release. For example, some who do use a formal release do not teach the stay command. They train the dog that if they give a command eg sit, then the dog sits until it is either released from that position or given another command. However, while the dog is sitting, they can still mark the behaviour to let the dog know that it is doing the right thing...encourage it. So their release word is different to their marker word. The reason I think this helped my dog out is that I might want to let her know she is doing the right thing, but I don't want her to stop what she is doing. So during a long stay for example if there was a distraction that once would have caused her to break, but she didn't, I could mark her not breaking without her mistakenly thinking/believing that she had been released.... Have I just made a mud puddle?

Hi Michael, thanks for joining. Is there a reason why you use webbing in the 'correction loop' (I still don't know what that is really called!) rather than chain? I really like the idea of a martingale set up with a buckle adjustment, but I'm curious as to the placement of the buckle. If we were talking a normal flat buckle collar, if the dog was pulling, because the D-ring is close to the buckle, the buckle is away from any area of pressure on the dogs throat, if you get what I mean. So I'm interested to know, if the Clever Collar is in correction mode, and the dog is pulling, approximately what area of the throat would the buckle be sitting near? For simplicity use a clock dial to describe with 12 o'clock being cervical vertebrae if you like. I have visited your website but can't really work out from the pictures what I'm wondering about. Cheers

Goooood Topic! I vote denial for some of the stuff I see: Someone going 'Yay' in a voice thats meant to be encouraging to the dog, but it doesn't seem to lift the dogs attitude.....then saying 'He really enjoys x' All the while the dog has the attitude of 'Yeah, whatever'. I'm thinking, 'Who are you trying to convince? Me, the dog, or yourself?' ;) Or, persistantly trying to shove food treats in the mouth of a dog that is just not interested in the food Or persisting with training methods and not getting anywhere, so getting rid of the dog and starting another one or giving up on training all together. The dog is broken, right? The reason that I think it's denial is because people don't want to be percieved in a bad light, they want to be seen to be good at what they do. Also, change isn't always comfortable and its not easy to admit that you've been wrong. So some people work hard to convince themselves that everything is good. Sadly the above is often to the detriment of the dog.

;) Bet your mate was popular with his visitors....I'm having visions from Cujo....dog on the bonnet barking through the windscreen. Thanks for the example, Tony

Kavik, do you find that Zoe releases at non planned use of 'OK'? Or is it just in drive that you use it.....so she doesn't consider the 'OK' a release unless you've given the trigger? If she doesn't, then I guess giving the trigger is kind of like a cueing event?

Cheers Erny. I think I might be re-iterating one of your points, but just to clarify for me I guess that since OK is so general, that we might be pairing it with negative events, positive events as well as neutral events so it really doesn't establish a particular meaning to the dog? I get it. And this kind of relates to what Vickie is saying...cueing events leading up to the word but for Vickies purpose, the events are planned/trained for rather than being mindless (for want of a better word) routine? Funny you should say this, I was watching a bloke doing food refusal the other day and his release word was 'Syd'. The dog was a lab so it didn't take too long to grab the food LOL but I wondered if he had initially caused his dog confusion with 'Sit' I haven't come across many trainers up this way at all that use a formally trained release...for anything, not just food refusal. Curious, eh?! It has really helped my dog out.

I remember taking part in a food refusal class once where the instructor cautioned against using "OK" as a release word. I've since heard the same advice from a number of trainers and the reasons given are generally to do with the fact that OK is one of the most common words in the English language and you don't want to mistakenly release your dog at an inappropriate time or in an inappropriate environment. What I'm wondering is, since OK is such a common word do we unknowingly condition our dogs to it without even thinking about it? Either as a release or a cue that something good is coming? Eg: -Kids on the inside of the door, dog on the outside, kids ask if they can let the dog in and you say "OK" -You've just given your dog a bath and finished towelling him down and you say "OK, all done", dog runs off having an attack of the zoomies like they often do after a bath. There are possibly hundreds of ways that the word "OK" slips into conversation when we're dealing with our dogs. I wonder how many times when a dog has displayed uncharacteristic behaviour, like breaking a trained position, or a normally self controlled dog has aggressed and the owners say to themselves "Wow, he's never done that before/hasn't done that for a long time, I wonder what set that off?". I wonder if they've inadvertently slipped the word 'OK' into converstation without realising that they've conditioned it? Too far fetched?

Yes, it has a buckle. Sending PM now.

I have a leather half check. If you're interested in stocking them I have one issue with the one that I have that you might like to consider. The chain in it is cheap. Sometimes with the cheap chains the links are shaped slightly differently or are too big to slide easily. This means that it takes more effort to initiate the check and also the chain doesn't release as quickly. Doesn't give a clean check if you know what I mean and this affects timing....maybe only by a fraction of a second, but that can sometimes be important. A lot of martingales seem the same too. It also doesn't seem to operate as nicely as a good quality martingale when its adjusted to sit up high on the neck....I don't know whether that is a design fault or just a reflection on the quality of the chain again. Can PM you the name of the manufacturer if you like.

I'd be interested in more feedback too. One advantage that I can see over the martingale is that you can get a buckle adjustment rather than a slide. Would make the fitting less fiddly than a martingale esp on a struggling dog. However I'd prefer the correction 'loop' for want of a better word to be made from chain though cuz I reckon the sound of the chain is a good behaviour interrupter if you need it.

So I guess that S&N is like idiot proofing your dog. When you read all the threads complaining not only about what morons to and around dogs but also what they let their dogs do around your dog, I can certainly see the value in it. It seems to me that its being proactive in ensuring that no matter how pair shaped things might go in the environment, you can always keep your dog safe physically and also protect its temperament. ETA: When you think about it from that angle there is potentially a greater application in the pet market than what I was originally thinking.

Yup, thats Siekah! How's the mum of psycho pup coming along?

It wouldn't have to be limited to local breeders either....breeders from all over might get enquiries about pups from your neck of the woods. If I was breeding and I was considering sending a pup to Melb, I'd be grateful for such a service considering that I might not get the chance to meet the people face to face or do home or yard checks..... ETA: It might also give breeders some confidence in that a puppy farmer or BYB'er probably would not take part in the classes? Another way to help them select the best possible homing for their pups.

Me too! And one of the people I was thinking of telling about your post!

I had a thought on this that might be helpful....might not too, but it doesn't hurt to put it out there If their is one group of people that are deadly serious about doing the utmost that puppies get the best start in life its the ethical registered ped breeders. Many of these will send out info that goes with the puppy, or will try to educate the prospective owners themselves and sort the wheat from the chaff during an interview process. These breeders may like the service that you are offering and if a potential puppy canditate can show proof of attendance, it may save some of the work that breeders do. Perhaps the breeders would like to refer a potential puppy buyer to you....or maybe even make it a condition of getting a pup from them? Could be something to ask in the Breeders thread?

I've taken part in showing and while I really wasn't interested in it enough to feel that it is the kind of thing I'd want to do lots of, I did learn something. These days I pay more attention to how a dog moves and the finer details about what constitutes a physically well balanced dog. I've also learned a little about how being out of balance in angle and proportion can affect how a dog uses its body. So it wasn't an entirely useless exercise for me. One of the big generalisations that I made as far as observation goes is that dogs that were originally bred for speed are more likely to have more angulation, where as in dogs that were predominantly used for strength much less angulation is acceptible. One of the contradictions to the above that I found is with my own breed. Ridgies are generally classified as a sight hound like whippets, greyhounds etc. In whippets and greys an angled croup (from what I understand from my limited experience) is desirable. Yet in the show ring, a straight croup is desirable in ridgebacks.....Is this an example of breeding for looks over functionality? My experience isn't great enough to answer that confidently....but I wonder. I also had one Judge say to me that they wouldn't hold an angled croup against a ridgeback. Yet breeders are selectively choosing straight croups. I believe that conformation is important....but to me, its only as important as the effects may have on long term health and the activities that I might choose to take part in with my dog. I'd prefer a structurally sound dog, and by that I mean one that does not have any faults that will affect the activities that I'd like to take part in, but I'd always put temperament first. Being involved in the show ring has helped educate me on what to look for, even if it was just by seeing examples of what I didn't want LOL. So while I agree that the standards sometimes suck, I'm thankful that the show environment existed so that I had the opportunity to learn.

Did you get any snail mail from Qld? If not, I'll follow up on that.

Cool ;) Maybe I'll come check it out! How do you find heavier dogs handle it? It's maybe something that I wouldn't mind doing for fun in the back yard...not sure about the rigours of competition though....

If I may answer this is how K9 would socialise a pup. Having gone through some of the experiences that I have with my girl, I'm definitely going to implement this program with my next dog....for a whole host of reasons. Good post Cosmolo. The only way we could move to changing what people do both before they get a dog and soon after is to legislate it. But thats never going to happen unless you can control the sources that people get their dogs from and police it.

I think they are different. Precise Training also offers a bunch of courses that have nothing to do with dogs...like hospitality stuff. Maybe they are a company that markets courses for other companies, or maybe they provide the framework and assessment for accreditation of the courses? Not really sure of their role.

Hey NC, Sorry its taken me a little while to reply.... I was waiting for this: Click Here

Hey ML, I don't think its the type of thing my girl would excel at However, I'm happy to help you get the word out up this way....Do you have any flyers? There is also a couple of doggy events coming up in Gympie where there is a possibility for you to do some demo's and see what kind of interest you can raise?...Local Obedience club is doing a grand opening at their new grounds in about a fortnight and RSPCA is doing a Pet Expo in Gympie in October... Let me know if you want more details.