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Oooh, start post games! I'd be interested in those. Is there a linky here? At our last trial as we were on the way up to the start post I stepped on my dogs foot, she yelped and swung away from me and as she did, she smacked into the start post. So now start posts bite and we don't want to go anywhere near them We were lucky though, we still managed to qualify and come 4th. The worst was on the heel pattern as we were heading back toward the start post to do the figure of 8 and during the fig or 8 according to onlookers.

I haven't any experience with the the harness mentioned but have experienced something similar to what you talk about. We had a dog at club that was recovering from a broken neck and was advised never to have a collar on (had hardware in his neck holding everything in place) so the owners were attempting to train him on a normal harness. He wasn't a serious puller, but he did lean into the harness a lot. The problem with the lead attachment on his back was that attempting to guide him with the lead was like trying to steer a shopping trolley while you're standing in it I got a carbinier and attached it to the chest strap at the point where it meets the strap that goes down between the forelegs and attached the lead to this and saw the movement that you are describing and yes it does help with teaching the dog not to pull. With this particular dog though we needed to add some form of correction before he got to the stage where he was actually being turned around by the force of his own momentum because he tried to maintain eye contact with whatever he was triggering on. We were concerned that if his head stayed in the same position while his body turned, we may end up with a similar whiplash effect as is described with haltis etc. It may not have been as important with a normal healthy dog, but this dog already had a fragile neck. Next I borrowed a training method from the horse world. We got a piece of rope and tied it around the dogs girth behind its front legs and run the loose end between the front legs and through the carbinier. Think check chain, but instead of around the neck, its around the girth...unlimited slip. The rope became the lead. So now not only did we have a kind of no pull harness, but also a way to effectively guide the dog and a way to give a more timely correction all with one lead/piece of rope. I ran all of this by the musculo-skeletal physio that I was seeing for my dog at the time before we actually put it on the dog in question and he said that it would be OK as a short term training aid, however there is the possibility that the dog may learn to use its front legs differently which in turn impact on the overall balance of the musculo-skeletal system. ETA: With the rope being unlimited slip, there is also the risk that you can crack ribs if the dog in question is a violent lunger.....so if there was a way to make this idea limited slip, that would be even better.

So the prong legislation snuck through on the coat tails of other issues without there really being any evidence to consider? :D I guess we really shouldn't be surprised, but if people were waiting in the wings to give anti legislation evidence, it really is arrogant for the govt to assume that it would never be questioned.

Yep, I've had it on my neck Its kind of like you don't feel each individual prong, but just pressure all round if its fitted firmly. If I pull it to its tightest, I can still comfortably breath and if I leave the pressure on for too long the area starts to numb. For an on and off check there is some discomfort at the prong sites and even though its alternatively known as a pinch collar, I haven't been able to manage to get it to actually pinch me from the perspective of the prongs, however, where the chain runs through the O ring I have on occasion been pinched at that site when the chain seemed to grab a piece of skin as it runs through the ring. I'd imagine that this would happen with a check chain or ordinary martingale anyways. That sensation (ie being pinched by the chain running through the O ring) was actually more painful than the action of the prongs during the check. I guess you could get an idea of the level of discomfort when you understand that some dogs learn to pull quite happily on the prong if they haven't had proper training with it, and I've actually seen one dog that was dragging his owner like a freight train even though he was wearing a prong. So like everything else, there needs to be a successful method of use too.

Guys, I've been trying to do a business name search on Whylie's, but my old computer and shyte dial up speed are letting me down, can someone help out by trying a search at either: Asic or justice.vic.gov.au

Not sure if its of any relevance or help, but Michael Tucker, the gentleman who's articles were discussed in the Vic Dogs thread is the president of the Australian Association of Professional Dog Trainers. www.dolforums.com.au/index.php?showtopic=115486

Oooh yes. Point in case: was listening in to someone who used to trial in obedience and has changed breeds and decided to get into obedience again. Has a very timid toy breed that she can't get to walk on lead. When asked what motivator she was using she said, "Just my voice". When asked what she had paired that with that means something to the dog to engage it in the learning process, she had no answer. She is adamant that she is not going to use food or toys to help motivate the dog however with some convincing did agree to patting the dog. One of the things that I find a worry is that often in the debate btn PP and Aversive style training some seem to stick so adamantly to their opinion/training method that they fail to learn from the other side of the fence. You end up with PP trainers who do not understand a fair application of an aversive, and aversive trainers who do not understand how to use motivators to their best advantage. This doesn't mean that either camp doesn't sometimes use the others methods, just that their closed mindedness prevents them from learning about them and using them effectively as in the example above.

I think its in the UK, but I remember reading about an agility organisation that has a competition class called ABC. Stands for Anything But a Collie.

Good points PF. I was having a discussion with a friend today about how some competitions are biased towards a certain type of dog (eg one example raised in the discussion-if you have a dog that has high pack drive, you are allowed to have the dogs primary motivator in the ring with you). The reality is that ANKC obedience is biased towards certain types of dogs, so the fact that Vic Dogs would publish such articles, even though I haven't read them..just commenting based on others opinions, doesn't really surprise me. Also, in a set of circumstances where ANKC and their affiliates in each state are bemoaning the fact that memberships are dropping across the board, is it really helping them to promote those obedience methods of training that only suit a certain type of dog? Joe Public turns up to these clubs too and he wants results regardless of the type of dog that he has. If he is not getting results, then he is certainly not going to consider competing and therefore becoming a member.

Hi KKK, Yes it was a fantastic feeling! The 'Yes' isn't a command, its a marker word to let your dog know that he has done the right thing. There are no commands to start off with, try to wait until the dog offers the look. You're trying to build a foundation of the dog looking to you for answers on how to get the reward rather than trying to control what he does with commands. The dog is learning self control from scratch rather than you trying to control him. You can guide him or give him hints. Its kind of like the dog offering the behaviour but he is allowed to make mistakes to figure out what doesn't work. Thats also the reason for the tie out....that way its not you preventing him from getting the food through trying to control him with commands etc. so make sure the tie out is secure and that he can't win the food by pulling against the tie out...depending on the size of your dog or the weight of the chair I'd be careful about using this.

I wonder if this could be true depending on the training/method style being used? For example, if its a really harsh training style that lacked reward, maybe the dog can only cope with 5 commands before it starts showing avoidance to the training and then its ability to learn drops. Dependent on the nature of the dog in question too.

If by 'quench' you mean satisfy, then yes. If you mean can the owner reduce the drive in a dog, then my answer is yes also. If you watch a dog that is engaging in an activity that is based in a positive drive, that it enjoys and that is not a part of training, and then you call the dog to start a training session and its body language changes, i.e. it loses some intensity of focus, it loses that kind of relaxed but energetic look then there is something about the training that reduces the dogs drive. Yes. Think about it like this....where you work, you know your job sooo well that you do it almost on a subconcious basis. Then one day, something about the job that you do changes...the computer system or cash register system that you use has an update and the way that you use it changes. For a while and until you get used to the changes, there are elements of your day to day work that you have to slow down on and think your way through rather than doing them on automatic pilot. There may also be a slight level of resistance at attempting those elements of your job that mean that you have to utilise the new changes, you might want to put them off for a bit until you have less distraction and can concentrate. Or think about how stressed you felt about a new job until you could do it on automatic pilot. Dogs will always show some level of confusion when a new criteria is added to an exercise. I think that in instances where this confusion manifests, if its not handled carefully, or if it happens too frequently, or if for any reason the dog feels rushed to get it right, dogs classically condition an attitude towards training that involves lack of confidence or resistance towards those activities and about what they have to do to earn the reward. The mistakes that you see handlers make most often when confusion arises is that they put more pressure on the dog to get it right. This is akin to your boss saying that there is a new program and you need to know it well by the end of today or I'm not going to pay you this week. Then, what if something like that happened every week....how would you feel about the job? If you train past the point of drive satiation in the reward scheduling then yes, I believe that the dog will lose drive. I often wonder the same thing. I wonder how much work I've created for both myself and my dog in overcoming early mistakes, and, have we really overcome them or is there more room for improvement? I guess time will tell. I do know however that she is much more engaged and much more confident in the training process and much more relaxed after a training session than she was in the early days. Yes, and what really bugs me about the above are those that don't reward, but also put more compulsion or force onto the dog or get frustrated and start yelling at the dog...what attitude is being classically conditioned into a dog about the sport?

There are 6 commands in the novice obedience ring alone, then from open up you start to add retrieves, scent discrimination, seek back, send to the box, directed jump, food refusal/speak on command....have I missed anything? Plenty of UD and UDX dogs around who need to know more than 6 commands...then some of these dogs also compete in other sports. Then there are informal commands...outside, in the car, etc.

I first started doing drive exercises with my dog over a year ago now. I can look back now and see areas where I made errors, so I'm constantly changing and improving what I do. I still consider myself a total novice at this stuff because I'm making new realisations every week. So I'm more than happy to be told I'm wrong First up, I think that perhaps 5 times a day is too much. Somethings to try: Try putting the dog on a tie back on a non correctional collar and play with the prey item by yourself to see if the dog builds frustration at trying to get the prey item. Flick the prey item into the area that the dog can reach and pull it out again. You might be able to keep your body parts out of the equation this way too As to when to allow the dog a catch....and this is one that I really had problems coming to grips with....initially allow lots of catches and praise the dog for catching. When you see the dog develop an interest in catching, start to make the catch harder to get and praise effort. If you also think in terms of what we know about extinction bursts, there is a point in time where a dog has been putting effort into getting a percieved reward, and if that reward is not forth coming, the intensity of the behaviour/effort increases just before it starts to go extinct. So be on the lookout for each small increase in effort/intensity and be prepared to allow the dog a win at that time. This was one of my major mistakes, I'd see an increase in intensity but miss rewarding it with a win. So I'd inadvertently reward her on the other side of the extinction burst when the intensity of the behaviour started to drop off. Make sure that your dog gets a few rewards at that new level of intensity so its sure about what it has to do in order to catch the prey item before you go looking for a new level of intensity (i.e. making the prey item a little harder to win and waiting for a new level of intensity in behaviour before allowing the dog a win) ETA: I'm also working from the perspective of a dog that I don't believe has solid nerve in prey drive so perhaps I'm needing to work harder to nurse her through? On the other hand, I believe that her food drive is the better drive to work with because she seems to be able to block out more distractions in the presence of food and maintain the drive for longer. If you search the training forum for a thread called 'Prey Drive, Control and Focus' there's a heap of good information in there.

Mmmmmm..... Multiple identities, anti a certain piece of training equipment...... Would I be right in guessing that the suspect is basically non-ohmic but has some ohmic material between the ears? :rolleyes:

Wow, Thats really lovely of Denis to give DOL such a good wrap, and lovely of you too Erny to pass it on. I would also like to take this opportunity to thank the mods on DOL for providing us with this forum. If it weren't for me stumbling across this site, my dog and I would be in a very different place right now. I've had the honour of meeting and discussing issues with some superb trainers and my life has taken a whole new path that I'm enjoying immensly. I'm so looking forward to learning more....so bring it on!

Husky, can you PM to me too please?

Good onya Denis! I'll look forward to reading and learning

Hi DD, Contact K9 Force, he recommends Jane Harper who I believe lives at Caboolture but works in Bris. I did have her contact details but can't find them

I've never heard of The Pawman. Where are you located? It might help with recommendations if we know where you are :rolleyes:

Ain't that the truth! There is nothing like being on the lead of a dog that is working the track well. For many other doggy things that we take part in, the dog enters our world and we train them. In tracking we enter the dogs world and the dog trains us. Very well put Gamby!

Try one of the contacts on this page: http://www.dogsnsw.org.au/region-hunter There aren't any tracking clubs listed in the Hunter region, but that doesn't mean that they don't exist. One of the obedience clubs listed will know.

Hi Miamay, Best thing to do is find your nearest tracking club (sometimes they are a part of obedience clubs but sometimes they are just for tracking). You can start going along to trials straight away to learn from people. You can volunteer to be a track layer or learn to steward, you learn heaps that way. If you go to the state controlling body in the state that you're in they will probably have a list of affiliated tracking clubs so that you can find one. Which state are you in? It might also help to get a hold of the tracking rule book so that you know what to train for.

Hi DT, I did my first block in June: Visited and observed at a number of different obedience clubs Practicals and hands on with different training tools and different dogs Practicals and hands on with different training methods and different dogs Lots of different theory sessions, including a one day theory session that has sooo much info that you really need to be prepared with a good nights sleep before hand....one person fell asleep it was so full on (no not me! ) Desensitisation workshop that you take part in with a dog and also as running the session. Agility workshop where you work with a dog. All I know is that by the end of the week my head was done in with info overload

She's a hoover hound She was so het up about her breakfast going missing that she was keen as to find it. I kept it pretty short to start off with, and if I remember correctly, I think I started hiding her meal inside and asking her to find it before I moved it outside and started increasing distances/putting corners in etc. I really don't think that I ever trained her to put her head to the ground (in the very initial stages), it was more like as things got more complicated, she had to rely on her nose to find her breakfast.