Rom

R: Even though the same message has been given above, a change of words and angle help it hit home.....I'm not slow

K9: well your comp scores prove your not!

Yeah, but don't forget that my dog is better than I am...I'm the weak link in the team :D

K9: someone taught your dog.... weak link

Yeah, that would be the same clutz that still manages to confuse her and knock her out of drive and she still manages to pull off the performance

ETA: Who was it that indicated that I need more training than my dog does?

R: Even though the same message has been given above, a change of words and angle help it hit home.....I'm not slow

K9: well your comp scores prove your not!

Yeah, but don't forget that my dog is better than I am...I'm the weak link in the team

I must have an older version. The chain on the collars in the pics above seems to have a lot more of a twist in the links than the one I have where the links are almost flat....just doesn't release efficiently after a check and its much harder to initiate a check.

I like the look of the martingale, however, am concerned about the position of the buckle...using a martingale the way I do would put the buckle front and centre on the dogs neck?

K9: & keep in mind that many handlers need to "prepare themselves" to deliver a correction via say a check chain as it can require so much force with some dogs. Dog picks up on the preparation & as checks, martingales etc all apply the correction to muscle tissue, it can often render the correction useless. The prong works on skin not muscle.

Also too some people need to use such a high level of force to correct their dog effectively, this raises adrenalin, frustration & sometimes anger in the trainer, which clouds judgement, destroys timing & breaks down the bond between the dog & handler...

Giving them a more effective tool, teaching them how to read their dog & time corrections & improving the Alpha Status of the hanlder works very well for me...

I'm also understanding this better the more practical experience I get. I was helping a lady with a leash puller/lunger and she was good at applying lots of force to the correction, but her timing was shyte, the force of her corrections weren't actually pulling the dog of its feet, but were enough to change the balance of the dog and sometimes he lost his footing. Same tool, less force, more speed and the dog responded nicely, improved focus and wagging tail the dog even seemed more relaxed...less tense somehow. The amount of force I was applying in the correction made around about the same amount of connection with the dogs neck as tapping your forefinger on the back of your hand hard enough to make a slapping sound, but the correction didn't change the dogs balance at all, yet he chose to comply. But he continually resisted forceful corrections which I reckon set him up for a greater chance of injury.

IMH(and greenhorn)O, this dog and handler combination were prime candidates for the prong, but since it was at an ANKC affiliate club, I couldn't recommend it.

It seems that some see the speed of the correction as being more violent than the force? I've actually had people put their hand between the collar and the dogs neck to feel the level of correction that I'm using for themselves and yet they still seem to resist it...could be either because of the lack of physical ability to apply a correction at that speed or that they can't read the intentions of the dog, but they seem more comfortable dragging the dog or having the dog drag them than they do with the alternative?

Does that explain things briefly Rom?

Sure does...thankyou

Erny:

And IMO this is the key .... many people stay on a 'static' level correction and somehow expect a change in behaviour.

And this helps too. Even though the same message has been given above, a change of words and angle help it hit home.....I'm not slow

K9: In addition to what Erny has written, the use of the prong collar is really no different to using any correction collar, but, everyone has an ideal of the way they use it...

I use an escalating style very light correction that to me preserves the dogs confidence & I find it easy to teach to others & they adapt & train very well, others choose a level of correction they feel adequate & deliver it...

I am not a fan of this method for new trainers/handlers & I explain it this way..

If I offered someone $30 000 for their car & the said sold, I would have either, hit the exact amount of money they wanted or somewhere above.

If I offered $10, $20, $30 & escalated until they said sold, I would have paid the exact correct amount..

I like to introduce new handlers to corrections the same way...

My apologies in advance to the OP, but I think I'm about to take this a little off topic

From a personal (and somewhat emotional) perspective, I like the above method too. But I'm curious as to your thoughts about the line of thinking that says that using the above method can a) desensitise the dog to lower level corrections and or b) subject the dog to unnecessary corrections until you find the right level where as going straight for the big guns may sensitise the dog to lower level corrections and mean that you will need fewer corrections over the course of time.

I know that we have discussed this in the past and that I've read some e-collar stuff that supports the same principles that you talk about....I guess I'm just trying to cement it all in my head.

There is a rubber or neoprene(sp?) collar liner that you can at some pet stores. Its made for relining flat collars and has elastic straps that you just slide the flat collar through. Also works well as a prong cover. I think I paid about around $7.00 for mine, but I can't remember where I got it from....I have a feeling that it may have been in the pet section of a supermarket? You don't see them often, but I have a feeling that I've seen them recently...pet section at Big W?

I think we perhaps need to put Zorro in a situation where there are kids around, and correct him when he starts to misbehave.

Please don't do that, it can only end in disaster & is incredibly unfair to the dog, especially if you don't really know what you're doing.

I agree.

Think of it like this: If you had a fear of something, and the person that you thought you could most trust punished you when showed that you were frightened in the presence of that trigger, do you think your stress levels would increase or decrease? Your stress would probably increase and you would either increase your reactivity to the trigger and/or learn to hide the signs that you were frightened. Thing is, you can only hide that stuff for a certain period of time until one day you just bust out or succumb to other stress related problems.

Further more, how do you think you would feel about the person that you thought you could trust to keep you safe?

Please consider seeing Jane, or if you can hang out until March next year, K9 Force is coming this way. Yes, as mentioned above corrections are sometimes used in cases of aggression, however circumstances are carefully set up and there are specifics that you need to understand before you attempt this, so please get some coaching on exactly what to do.

I am currently under instruction to remain inside my house due to there being a domestic issue going on with my neighbours. I have about 6 police cars, an ambulance, a paramedics car and a dog squad car parked in front of my house... so I am somewhat bored.

You find all of THAT boring?

You're Bored You've got a seige and maybe a hostage situation going on right under your nose and you're bored???? Man!!! What does it take to rev you up That's scary stuff happening there.

Mmmm....maybe Seita has high dog work/play drive. We all know that when drives are properly developed, all other distractions disappear for the want of drive satisfaction. But if the drive isn't satisfied, this can bleed over into other unwanted behaviours........wonder what Seita is up to now?

You would think so!

Whats the point of a service dog that won't work around other dogs? Its not like they can guarantee that all situations that they might need the dog in will be void of dogs.

Gosh...even in basic obedience the dog is expected to work around other dogs........

Phew! Despite your fright RLO1, I'm feeling really happy for you....light at the end of the tunnel, eh?

It's probably a big ask since you've been through so much with your dog, but I was wondering what types of things the trainers that you have seen have suggested (apart from PTS) that didn't work or have proven ineffective?

I ask cuz I'm interested in learning and understanding all about aggression and I understand if there's too much to answer .

Postscript to this... has anyone ever had their dog do a 'fake' wee just to get the treat? Mine has pulled this a couple of times when I'm trying to get her to go just to get her off my back and get the treat

;) A lady that used to train at our club told me that her dog used to 'assume the position' on command even if she had nothing to empty out. I thought that was kinda cute

K9: Now were did you meet me? I suspect it WAS in Qld.... , & its seems I am coming back according to Rom lol..

That sounds like you thought you had a choice

Rom, can you explain exactly what the courses will entail for us newbies?

Phew short version or long version?

To give you some idea of training in drive you can read the Triangle of temptation at the top of the training forum, or this thread Prey drive, control and focus

Short version TID is about understanding the dogs positive drives for survival, what is happening internally both in the dogs mind and chemically and hormonally through its body. By knowing all this, you can pinpoint the dogs peak learning times and times when the dog will not learn anything and teach the dog self control by setting up training so that it learns to control its own mind. Its about manipulating the training process so that your dogs response to commands become like automatic involuntary relfexes rather than a voluntary process. Its about using the effects of the natural chemicals and hormones coursing through the dogs body to deliver an internal reward for the dog called an 'endorphin high'. Its about learning to recognise what kinds of things negatively impact on the drives and in turn make the training harder and less ejoyable for both you and the dog. It all sounds complex, but the reality is that Steve's programs make it easy.

The Handlers part of the workshop is about how to use 'Alpha Pressure'. I don't understand it all, but have read snippets and I'm intrigued....I want to learn more. I remember Steve saying that you can use Alpha pressure to move an untrained dog into a sit or drop without commands, or physical guidance/touch....I undertand that it is a body language thing and it has lots of applications. But I figured I'd love to know more about it and felt that other doggy people would too.

E-collars are controversial training tools in some areas. Once again, my experience of them is limited to what I have read and a few demo's that I've seen and I want to know more. I have personally had an e-collar on and was surprised at the lack of sensation in comparison to what I was expecting, surprised that something that seemed sooo inconsequential can be used to effectively modify behaviours and train dogs and still protect a positive state of mind and calmness in a dog.

So thats the basics

ETA: This is the workshop to attend if you have a dog with behavioural problems you want to sort, if you just want better obedience, if you want to improve your competition stats., or if you just want a better relationship with your dog.

Access to toilets, at least a tennis court sized area, some shady trees or an undercover area incase the weather turns unfriendly, handy to shops incase people want to buzz off to get some lunch....and if possible, not a public area where lots of people are likely to be walking their dogs LOL.

S&B is putting some feelers out about a school/sports area this week about 30 mins south of Brissie.

But all suggestions welcome!

Oh, and hopefully you won't have to work this time KK

I have been talking to Steve about coming up to Brisbane early next year to do TID, Handlers & E-collar workshop.

Brisbane this time to save everyone travelling so far

I have put some feelers out with Brissie rellies to find appropriate grounds to do this on, but have no definite answers yet, so if anyone knows of some good grounds...I'm taking all ideas!

So...who all would like to come?

I guess this is as good a time as any.....I've been talking to Steve about coming up this way for another workshop next year. It will probably be around March and he sometimes is able to do one on one sessions either side of the workshop. I'm guessing March is too long for you to wait RottieLover01. I guess I'll start another thread about this now

Having said that I second Husky87's recommendation of Jane Harper. I know that Steve Courtney recommends her to people up this way if they can't get to him and she is a great lady.

I think that basically when you take away choice but are insisting on a behaviour, you are using compulsion or force. I have learned that this doesn't necessarily need to be harsh or cruel to be effective. The way it works from my understanding is that being forced can be stressful = +P, even if it is just a slight amount of stress and when the force is taken away you get -R. So yes it can work inside the terms of operant theory.

Not sure if I'm on the same page or not :D

You guys are all awesome and inspirational...keep up the great work! I love reading this thread.

My little brag.....I entered my dog into Novice Sweepstakes last week and leading up to going into the ring everything was shaping up nicely, she was eager and actually trying everything on to make me give her a command to start working. Considering where we've come from its awesome to see her so eager to work.

Enter clutz ;) as we were walking up to the start peg I stepped on her foot, she yelped and swung away from me and as she did she smacked into the start peg and yelped again. The start peg caught her in the flank and as she tried to get away from it she ended up with her back leg on the opposite side of the peg to the rest of her body, so she was basically hooked to it. So now, start pegs bite and we don't want to go anywhere near them. Judge allows us to break for a minute to try and calm her and we start again....still really wary of those biting start pegs....but despite all of that she pulled a qualifying score and came 4th. She mainly lost points in the heel when we were near the start peg...fig 8 etc. I was really proud of her.

There was a behaviourist (you'll know who Husky87) stewarding on the ring and she said to me afterwards that she was surprised that my dog worked at all considering the fright that she got and how she reacted to the start peg. I love my girl...what can I say?!

As an aside, a friend who was watching yelled out in a joking manner as we exited the ring "I saw you kick that bloody dog!" and I said "Well, yeah, we can idiot proof the dogs but we can't do much about the bloody handlers can we?"

I'm thinking that perhaps I should have withdrawn my girl and worked on her new fear rather than continuing with the run out, even though she performed really well under the circumstances....I'm wondering when I'm gonna know and understand enough to stop letting her down?

ETA: Having a rare few drinkies tonight so am feeling a little emotional about it all

Hey Myszka...I'd like an email addy too if thats OK

Skip, if you do a search on the training forum re: Dogtech and John Richardson (the franchisor) you'll get some feed back.

I don't have any direct experience with them, but I remember the reports here not being great. With franchise system its pretty much pot luck as to whether you will end up with a representative who has genuine knowledge about dogs or someone who had no knowledge to begin with but did one of the franchises short courses before opening their doors for business.

I wouldn't recommend Dogtech in the broad sense based on that. However their may be individuals that are OK.....but nobody here has found one from what I recall.

Hey SP,

I've got a Vasquez limited slip and I don't like it that much. The problem is with the chain...with some cheap chains the links are shaped differently in comparison to the better quality chain and this difference in shape can mean that it takes more work from your part to actually initiate a check and also that the check doesn't always release all the way, straight away if at all. This can affect the timing of a correction and then if it doesn't release properly, its difficult to get the right message across to the dog.

If the chain is OK in your current martingale from this perspective then I'd consider Myszka's suggestion. BTW, is your current martingale a Prestige Pets? Cuz I have noticed that the slide buckle in those moves under pressure.

Ooooh! Here's an interesting find:

An Unnecessary And Preventable Euthanasia.

SS asked me to look at a dog the other day. Simon, who came from a local animal shelter because he was way too much for their volunteers and potential adopters to handle and therefore was going to be euthanized, is your typical big, dumb dog. Perhaps I should rephrase that...he is your typical, big, dumb dog that hasn't been trained or taught any decent manners. He is hyper, mouthy, and obnoxious. Yuck. Who would want a dog like this?

The dog had failed our temperament test because it was constantly jumping up on us (not in a good way) and putting his mouth on us. SS wanted to get my opinion. Did I think we should work with him to see if this totally unpleasant behavior could be modified or was it too little too late? I didn't see anything terribly dangerous in the dog, but I did see what the trainers had seen and again thought yuck.

But then SS said, let me put a prong collar on him, work him and see what happens. A PRONG COLLAR!! A collar with prongs? How can a humane society that is dedicated to preventing the cruelty to animals suggest such a thing????? Very easily. Here at the East Bay SPCA, we do what is right for each dog, not what is 'politically correct' for all dogs. Every dog is different and we work with each one in a way to address his or her individual issues. "Never" is in not in our vocabulary. Although positive reinforcement has been proven to be most successful at changing behavior long term, from time to time, it isn't enough.

She brought Simon to me two days later and he was a different dog. Obedient, mannered and on the right track. Only time will tell if he'll make it into our adoption program, but I could not be more proud of SS because she looked past the stereotypes and training peer pressure and did what was right for that dog. I think the ultimate cruelty is not a prong collar, but an unnecessary and preventable euthanasia.

From:

An SPCA

I've heard the same thing and I thought that when I obtained the docs/submissions/reports that were made to support the current Victorian legislation going through (ie to ban the use of the prong) that this "mis-use" by tampering would have come up. But ..... nothing. In fact, there is nothing at all from any of the "key organisations" who were elected as consultants and who supported the "use-ban" legislation in amongst the docs I have obtained to evidence their reason for that support.

Is there anything documented where this has actually occurred? ..... I'm beginning to wonder if this isn't one of those urban myths that someone dreamt up as a possibility but then threw it in the ring as an "anti-prong" lobbiest and Chinese Whispers took care of it from there.

Am doing a bit of searching and this is all I've come up with so far:

Here

This is from a data base of almost 12000 cruelty cases.

Will search with more key words

ETA: The above is not an abuse in the training sense....just that it was left on until the skin started growing over it.

Yes, you put the bowl on the ground.

If your dog is jumping around and pulling at the tie back to try and get to it, his drive is too high to learn, and this indicates that the bowl is too close. So move it away until he settles a bit...or as K9 says, to the point where he thinks it may not be for him after all. Then go back and stand by him. He will probably still be staring at the bowl you can either wait until he looks at you for answers on how to get it or if a few minutes have passed and he still hasn't looked at you, make a noise to attract his attention. Then mark with 'yes' and release him to get the food.

Keep in mind that you're not trying to control him or direct him, rather you are setting up circumstances so that he figures out for himself what earns the release and he is allowed to try different things.

My girl sat while staring at the bowl, then stood while staring at the bowl, then barked at the bowl, then did a play bow....she went through every trick she knew then finally she looked at me. My job was not to stop her from trying all this stuff, infact, it was to allow her to play it all through her mind so she could eliminate all the things that didn't work. With each repetition at each feed time, she tried fewer things and got to looking at me sooner until she figured for herself, the sooner she looked at me, the sooner she got the release.

Then we started to stretch out the time that she had to hold eye contact with me in order to earn the release.