Rom

Gidday HR,

In another thread you made reference to anthropomorphism being cruel.

Instinctually I agree with you....just feel in my gut that its correct, but am having trouble coming up with solid examples. So was wondering if you can help out here?

I can come up with vague kinds of examples, like feeding dog on human diet - dog gets diet related diseases etc.

Cheers in advance for any help you can give!

Does any one know why NFDT doesn't go to Cert IV?

Is it possible to take up with Delta where you left off with NFDT?

I've often wondered at the possibility of parvo being airborne. If the virus can remain viable in the ground for 12 months, and you get dry dusty condtions....I wonder? And many viruses can be spread by airborne transmission.

Also apparently after the discovery of the first case of parvo, the virus only took one month to circumnavigate the globe. Thats a lot of people walking in a lot of pooh!

Gidday Fido,

I am seeing lots of lovely comments here about the NDTF course being better than Delta but how many of the posters can speak from direct experience of both?

As a person who has done neither course, I can't say that one is better than the other, but they are different, and that is apparent from their respective websites. It would depend on the individuals goals as to which would suit them better.

There are two Delta trained instructors at one of the agility clubs I attend, and initially I was keen to do the Delta course and would still be doing it if I hadn't realised that there was an alternative where I could get accreditation.

so why do NDTF people insist on critiquing Delta all the time?

My intention was not to critique Delta, but merely to point out the reasons why I'm choosing NDTF. So please accept my apologies on this count.

When someone here who has done both courses can relay their experiences I might be convinced which is better, until then I will reserve judgement.

Finances and time constraints will only allow me to do one at a time but would still consider doing Delta if I found that my knowledge was lacking down the track.

Would it be OK if I jabbed my dog with an electric cattle prod if he didn't turn left when I wanted him too?

In most instances I would have to say definitely not. I generally would not consider not turning left when requested a behavioural issue, more a training issue. In some cases it could possibly be a medical issue. But I won't rule out the possibility that there may arise a circumstance where a dog that doesn't turn left in a particular situation and places either the dog or its handler in peril.

However, if a dog has been able to self reward by ignoring you, and it places the value of its self reward higher than any reward that you can give it and also finds any negatives that you can apply acceptable consequences of its actions in view of the high value it has placed on its self reward, where do you go next? Whether we like it or not, there are times when the old -P,+P,-R,+R break down and do not serve the situation, and for many dogs in this situation the alternative is PTS.

As an example, a friend of mine (who should never be a foster carer cuz she can't bare to give up any animal she fosters ) has 5 dogs. They live on acreage and the dogs have a 1.5 acre fenced in house yard. The acreage borders the Bruce Hwy. The surrounding properties are horse and cattle properties and there have been issues with wild dogs attacking livestock. The 5th of my friends adoptees is a notorious escape artist and over the course of time despite all measures and continual repairs, the 5th taught the original 4 how to get out and keep persisting cuz sooner or later you'll find a way. In the long term, my friend did not consider chaining or confining the dogs to runs an acceptable solution...she likes them to have some freedom, some have toileting issues, some are working breeds and she was often away all day. No matter what she did, the dogs continued to get out...they had a total ball flushing hares and quails, swimming in dams, rolling in and eating horse or cow pooh. There was no reward or punishment she could dish out that could change their mind about how fun getting out was. But there was heaps of potential danger out there, getting hit on the highway, being shot by an owner of livestock that is worried about losing more stock..so an adversive was used....we ran a hot wire (electric fence) around the bottom of the house fence. The thing is, the dog that started all the shenanigans never come into contact with the wire...little smarty pants stood back and saw the others get hit and figured that he wasn't going within a meter of that fence! Thing is, the hot wire isn't even turned on any more, but we now have 5 dogs that will not leave that yard unless they are on the lead or in the car.

A piece of equipment used incorrectly can inflict pain, too many instructors who use such equipment have no idea how it's meant to be used. I see so many dog owners who don't even know that a slip chain has to be fitted a certain way, they have them on upside down and drag their dogs around on them choking the poor creatures half to death .

Thats absolutely right Fido, and the very reason why people should be educated on there correct use. I think that any outlet that sells check or slip chains should at least be required to also be able to give informed instruction on their use. Having said that despite some of the training issues I've had with my girl, there is no way on this sweet earth that I would ever use a check chain on her. I hate the bl@@dy things!

Cheryl

11 Places left.

I love that story HR - found it was highly relevant to a group of people I was working with at the time

I agree.....I don't often enough question the source of someones knowledge....

Have a similar story. Can't remember where it comes from

A Mum cooks excellent roasts and brags that she uses the methods that her grandmother taught her. One of the steps involves slicing a chunk off the end of the roast b4 you cook it...twas assumed that it helped the flavours of the basting absorb until grandma was asked.....she cut the chunk off the end cuz the roast wouldn't fit into her baking dish

Once i was running towards the tunnel and said (having a blonde moment) OVER... it really surprised me but my Froggy actually listened... she cleared the tunnel straight over...

One of the things that I love about being an agility spectator is seeing a dog that is sooo motivated and handler focused offer up un trained for behaviours when the cues get a little confused! Its like....'Well, I'm not sure what you really want, but I'll have a go!'

ETA: One thing I really hate is when the handler loses his/her bundle at the dog when this happens!

Anyways squeak, I would recommend to do NDTF first, if you want more info, PM me, i'd be more than happy to tell you what else I felt about the course - positives and negatives

Can I take up the offer of additional info via PM as well?

Would be highly appreciated!

I agree with you about starting out with positives...and also I would only refer to corrections and adversives if it became apparent that they were needed, hope my post above didn't give the impression that I would employ the techniques without giving them or the nature of the dog in question careful consideration.

I quite often called the wrong obstacle, including recently calling the tyre 'that thing over there' LOL - dog did go by body language.

This would be an issue for me too I think during the odd blonde or senior moment!

ETA: also wonder if a dog would for example, attempt to take an obstacle at your verbal cue rather than finding his own stride to attack it?

I may be wording this a little strongly, but I think any education that discourages you from exploring alternatives is not a solid one and may perhaps be more akin to brainwashing (not the exact word I'm looking for....its right on the tip of my fingers....just can't get it down).

While am in total agreement with positve training methods, if you rule out adversives and corrections entirely, then you may be limiting yourself to only working successfully dogs with a set range of temperaments and behavioural problems.

I think that the major issue that purely positive trainers have with corrections and adversives is that in the wrong hands there is a fine line btn these and abuse, and this can be avoided with a well rounded education. They also overlook the fact that adversives and corrections are a natural part of learning for dogs in many environments...and not just wild dogs....how many times have you seen a pup stick his nose into a hot cuppa, try to sniff at a crab on the beach and gotten himself nipped, lick a cactus and all those silly things that we see pups do as they suss out their environment....adversives can be provided by nature and they are good teachers, and they don't have to psychologically or physically scar the student in order to have a profound impact on the student, so I don't see why they can't be called on in situations where their use is warranted.

I had a conversation with a Delta trained trained instructor on the prong collar and in her opinion they are cruel and they hurt. She also mentioned that during her training they were shown a prong collar and had it put on her wrist to prove that they were cruel...my first thought was that the structure and anatomy of the human wrist is very different from that of a neck of a dog, and remembered reading somewhere (perhaps dol or www.k9force.net) that to make a comparison you should put the prong on your upper arm or thigh where it can work on skin rather than bone. Also during my initial internet search when I was investigating prong collars, I didn't find a single negative article about them....yet Delta are dead against them despite the fact that many dogs have shown remarkable improvements in the behaviours for which they were implemented.

For the above reasons, I am leaning strongly toward NFDT

Apart from what everyone has said I think its important for an istructor to admit that something is out of their league and they dont know how to deal with it.

They should be able to direct the person to someone that can help the person.

Amen!

Totally understand where you're coming from Barb.

I still wonder about it all though, keeping in mind that as a handler, I'm very new to agility, so am very open to all comments.

I'd like to share some of what I've noticed as an observer though:

1. handler has a word fumble and calls 'tunnel' instead of 'table'....dog still takes table...so is it that the dogs instinct to read and act on body language is superior (esp where split second decisions are needed) and we are just clouding the air with noise when we give verbals?

2. in a difficult jump sequence at training an experience dog and handler kept taking wrong course regardless of verbals given to dog until handler took 5 to get the body language right, then dog aced the sequence.

3. At an AADA trial, a section of the course was set up so that the entry to weaves was at right angle to the table. Sequence was table then weaves. On 3 occasions I saw handlers call 'table' then continue past the table to get ready to set up weave entry and despite the call, dogs followed handlers past the table to weave entry.

Also, right or wrong, I always like to consider how a pack of dogs in the wild react to different things. One of reasons that a pack is formed is because it bodes for a more successful hunt = full bellies etc. By necessity, the hunt is a silent affair, you don't want to let your quarry know what you're up to. So in the wild, most of the co-ordination of the hunt is done silently.

The reason that I like to do this that I've also read that domestication has only changed 15% of a dogs mind/instincts and I think that this can be evidenced in the fact that under the right circumstances, domestic dogs can return to being totally wild inside one generation.

I've also read that a dogs peripheral vision is much more developed than ours, so is it possible that a dog does not necessarily have to look directly back to us to react to our body language and that in time and with training that my girl will not need to look directly back to me to get the cues?

Yeah, I've watched Greg D's foundation agility video. He actually trained his dogs to do a whole course by teaching them 'left' and 'right' (he used other words though)...so he has the ability to just stand back and direct his dogs around the whole course with verbals, but he made a point that in a trial situation he only relies on these commands in an emergency situation. Otherwise its body language for the directions.

My Girl is only in foundation agility at the moment, but what I like about not using verbals is that after each obstacle she looks back to me to see where we're going next.

Excellent points Erny & CC!

Now that IS important, but something that we seem to have back the front!

The other things is that the advanced class could help to educate the beginner instructor!

Most competitors in agility that I've watched are constantly giving verbal directions to their dogs. I have also seen a few who say very little if any thing to their dogs during the run. What are the pro's and cons of these methods. I am leaning toward the silent running side of things because one of the blokes that I've had the opportunity to watch doing it on a number of occasions was really impressive. The dog was taking all of its cues from his body language. The bloke competed with boxers and they looked really stunning in the comps.

On the other hand, I've noticed that many people lose points when they rely on the verbals too much and get a bit slack with the body language....it seems that the points were lost because the dog followed body language instead of verbal cue.

As far as actually training my own dog to compete in this area goes, I'm very green, but have been attending agility trials as a spectator and steward for over 2 years. Would love to hear the thoughts of Dolers on this.

this is great a questtionairre sounds good maybe we should do one on dol for feedback like this but in more detail you up for it Rom

I was thinking more along the lines of using similar wording in your original post CC, I may be wrong but I feel that if the questions become too detailed, then you don't get the kind of answers offered up like you would with your wording.....you've probably gotten answers to questions that you didn't think to ask.

Did I just make myself clear as mud????

What do you think??

ETA: Just trying to clarify the above....if the questionaire becomes too detailed, you may only answers to the questions that you asked, but no additional information....am I getting muddier???

There you go KitKat. Did it myself....good old copy and paste!

Now.....just to confuse the issue even more....Steve has contacted me to say that if you want to attend both days of the workshop then thats good because even though the basic format for the workshops for each day is the same, the direction that the workshops take is highly question driven so no 2 are the same. But you now pay for 2 days instead of the price quoted for one.

12th Jul 2006 - 11:20 AM Post #1

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Seems that I, in my sometimes ditzy way, have been a little unclear about the details of the workshop in Gympie.

K9 will be here for 2 days running 2 workshops. As he limits class sizes to 15 and needed around 30 attendees to make coming up here worth while, each workshop is basically the same thing repeated on the second day. You only need to attend one day...either 23rd or 24th of Sept....more than welcome to attend both days if you want to or if you just can't get enough of Steve, but its not necessary.

Also for those that want to stay overnight, Twin Lakes Village is dog friendly and have 2 bedroom cabins for about $70 per night if I remember correctly. So there is the opportunity to organise shared accomodation if its needed. They are fully fenced except the driveway opening at the front and have a large grassy area that the dogs can have a run in. I think it will be school holiday time at the time of the workshop so will probably be a good idea to book ahead...contact no:54825433

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Rom

Lover of dogs and learning esp. anything about dogs.

Reluctant obedience and agility instructor.

Always keep your cup of knowledge half full because if it is full you can learn no more.

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Quick Edit KitKat 12th Jul 2006 - 05:52 PM Post #2

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I'm happy to put in a tentative interest in both days...but i need to know which weekend (definitely the 23/24?) and where (eg in Gympie...or somewhere near Gympie) before making the final decision..

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Be Constructive - Not Destructive!!!

Harm - RottxLab, Rest easy my friend

Bronx - Black & Gold GSD

Sabre - Black GSD pup

The best food for your dog is the food your dog does best on! Packaged or Unpackaged!!!

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Hesapandabear 12th Jul 2006 - 06:03 PM Post #3

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23/24 of what month?.

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KitKat 12th Jul 2006 - 06:26 PM Post #4

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I believe it will be in September?

--------------------

Be Constructive - Not Destructive!!!

Harm - RottxLab, Rest easy my friend

Bronx - Black & Gold GSD

Sabre - Black GSD pup

The best food for your dog is the food your dog does best on! Packaged or Unpackaged!!!

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Rom 12th Jul 2006 - 10:33 PM Post #5

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Yup, September

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Rom

Lover of dogs and learning esp. anything about dogs.

Reluctant obedience and agility instructor.

Always keep your cup of knowledge half full because if it is full you can learn no more.

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are you talking from a maybe going to them for help or they want to instruct at your school.

Well, as mentioned in another thread, its always hard to get instructors at club, and at my club, instructors are generally recruited from those members who seem to have a good fit with the club and do well with their dogs and or indicate that they have had lots of experience with other dogs. But we still get caught out. And there are the instructors who instruct because they have done so for a very long time, but they make no headway with their own dogs, their methods are questionable, and rather than work with the issues that the dog has, they talk about getting rid of the dog because its useless and getting another one. So you'd replace them if you could, take them out of class situation and say put them on ring run out practice where they are probably more suited because they know the ins and outs of the ring, but I just would like to be able to be sure that if you are going to replace them, you replace them with quality instead of more than the same....Am I making sense?

So just want some help to compose a list of specific questions. I have some running around in my mind, but I don't want to miss out on something that could perhaps make a big difference if rather than being in situation where you're looking back, bugger, I should have asked x before I asked if they'd like to instruct.

Love this thread!!!

Gonna copy it and take it along to meeting tonight for self assessment and feedback. Might open a few eyes!

Might even do up a q'aire along these lines to hand out to all members at our club.

I don't always believe that someone needs to have had a utility titled dog in order to be a good instructor. Someone may be an excellent trainer, but just not have the communication/people skills to be able to pass their knowledge on effectively. Others may have utility level dogs, but just do not trial because of family or work commitments etc or no interest in competition or titles. Others are just breed blind and totally write off any dog in their class that isn't of a specific breed. Have actually heard one such instructor say to a beginner 'That dog will never be any good so you might as well just get rid of it!'

But if you were trying to figure out a persons level of knowledge about dog training to sort the wannabes from the reallyares what sort of specific questions would you ask them before you set them loose on a class?

Best Points:

1. Great social outing for me and my dog.

2. Lots of different things on offer. obedience, agility, tracking, and we're working on getting lure coursing happening too...if we could just find time in our busy schedules!!

3. After a dog has reached a certain stage in obedience we have the choice of going to either trialling class or social class. The social class basically asks 'Ok, what do you want your dog to learn now, what issues are you coming up with at home or out in public that you would like help with. Eg, There was a dog that refused to walk down a certain street because of the sound that some flags made on a windy day...so we started desensitising the dog to flapping things. We teach tricks if thats what the class wants.

Worst Points:

1. The group of people that we refer to as the 'Cronies' that winge and complain no matter what you do.

2. People who are prepared to destroy the image of the whole club because of personal vendettas.

3. Those that want much more than the club can provide, but are never prepared to get off their to help.

I guess you find 'em in every crowd!

Didnt like it in the beginning when first learning you would have one instructor tell you something and then the next wk you'd have a different instructor and they would tell you that what you were doing was WRONG and it was exactly what the previous instructor had said to do - i get it now that REALLY both instructors are kinda right because different stuff works for different dogs and handlers.

Each new beginners class at our club is told that different instructors have different methods of training and that what you might fall behind on in one class, you might pick up in another when you learn a different method of training. Our instructors are also rotated to a certain extent for that very reason. We don't call a training method wrong unless its too ludicrous to be believable or its down right cruel. That way instructors learn to be flexible instead of defensive of their methods.

A good idea for those who are volunteer instructors who would like to come along...Gympie Dog Obedience Club has agreed to subsidise the cost of its instructors to attend the workshop. A little by way of instructor training and developement and also to give something back to the people that help make the club possible.

Perhaps your club would do the same for you?

he also ended up being severely corrected that week (something I was less than impressed about) by one of the trainers because he is slow on the Drop command.

After my experience at obedience clubs I would never ever allow an instructor to handle my dog without them first telling me exactlywhat they intended to do. Many of them seem to dish out harsh corrections without assessing the dog or understanding the effect that a harsh correction would have on them. Not that I'm saying that the harsh correction was the wrong thing to do in this instance or that your dog was the type to be adversely affected by the correction....just that too many trainers IMO have the attitude that one method suits all and this is definitely not always the case! So consider if this maybe the reason for your dog losing its enthusiasm for work.

For eg, have seen a trainer take a dog from an owner that had lagging on lead problems. Trainer didn't assess the dog b4 giving harsh corrections in an attempt to improve the heeling position. Turns out dog has a very nervous disposition and started nipping at the trainer during stand for exam immediately after the trainer giving these corrections.

ETA: If the dog was already performing well with hand signals, then why try to fix what isn't broken?

14 places left. Do you guys that are travelling up from Brisbane want to car pool? I can PM you each others tags if you want to organise that.