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Ditto, thanks to ESSCQ. Jan was a very entertaining speaker...have to give her that. I laughed a lot. I'd class her along the lines of Cesar Milan. She has a concept that she markets well and it has some merit, but I feel that her concept is more for the pet dog owner or owner of the dog that has specific behavioural problems rather than the competitor. When it came to questions on the 'how to's' on anything that occurs after the Amichien Bonding process, (ie loose lead walking) she didn't seem to have the detail and was somewhat vague. I too noticed a marked change in her demeanour when it came to the question and answer session. I get the feeling that she has possibly been vigorously challenged during question and answer sessions before and she flew out on the defence, I congratulate those brave souls who dared to ask a question after the first few got trampled on. No, I didn't see the lady crying, but it doesn't surprise me. I'd thought of a tongue in cheek question that I was gonna ask for a laugh but I figured by the mood of Q&A session, all jokes were off! Would I try the Amichien Bonding process? Absolutely! Anything that forecasts an improvement in my relationship with my dog and has no possibility of doing either of us long term harm, I'll give it a go!

I'd actually like to see the same for both check chains and halti's or gentle leaders. After all, they are potentially more dangerous IMO. There seems to be some polarization to opposite ends of the spectrum. If you use any corrections or aversives, then it is seen that you are a correction based trainer that uses no positives. But that just isn't the case in many instances. For example, I never use a correction if I'm trying to teach a dog to do something new. I never use a correction if I have the dogs focus, I make the assumption that the dog wants to do what I want, but it just doesn't understand what I want, or the dog doesn't have the same value on the reward as I do. In these instances I'm purely positive all the way...lure and reward, clickers, you name it. Secondly, many who make the above polarizations often fail to realise that the correct timing of both the correction and the reward can actually improve the dogs understanding and lift the confidence in a soft dog. I try to never apply a correction unless I can also deliver a reward within seconds of the correction taking place. Its kind of like the old maxim, don't issue a command that you can't enforce. I don't issue a correction unless I can set it up that a reward will follow. This has a lot to do with starting training in a low distraction environment then gradually adding distractions. I've also been known to do an almost gymnastic tumble to help my dog avoid an impending correction that I knew she didn't deserve when she got leads tangled with another handlers dog and that handler was big on dishing out corrections and dragging her dog around by the neck. That's what I was thinking - I read somewhere that if you can't get your dog back into drive after a correction (whether you're in food drive, pack drive, prey drive, whatever), then your correction was way too hard. I was also thinking that maybe your dog is confused about why he is getting corrected, and doesn't know how to avoid the correction. I don't think any trainer here would recommend that you correct your dog for a mistake during training, not if the dog was genuinely trying to complete the exercise. All that would give you would be an upset or scared dog. Edited to add - I'm not saying that you should correct your dog if you don't want to or don't need to, I'm just trying to suggest a few reasons why you might have got the reaction you did from your dog. Once again, also got to consider reward and reward timing here.

Here 'tis if its of any use: The Petition Site

I'm happy to help out where I can. Even though I'm in Qld where they're legal, I believe anything that can be done to help them become a more acceptable training tool everywhere in Australia is good. CCCQ wrote to our club asking for a please explain when the subject of prongs come up and quoted the animal cruelty act. Although our club doesn't promote the use of prongs, their are some who attend who use them with excellent results. Just tonight we had a woman injured when her dog lunged in an unexpected direction. This is a strong dog and the woman just does not have the strength to stand up to its force. Otherwise the dog is progressing really good in its training generally, and yes, even in the heel. Just lunges against her when it thinks its gonna get some attention from someone else. Just loves people! All the time I'm thinking, wow, a prong could really help out this woman and her dog the way it has for me but I can't recommend it to her at club. Its ludicrous! Also, because there is a nasty situation at club with some in-fighting, I figured that sooner or later someone would dob me in. I emailed both CEO and local cruelty inspector of RSPCA and told them that I was using a prong. I know that they can't do anything unless they can prove a case of cruelty and I'm happy for them to try and take me to court...but I know they won't because they won't be able to prove their case. But figured I'd get in first incase the shyte hits the fan. Its been over a week now since I sent the email and haven't heard anything yet...wonder if I ever will? I have also heard of PP trainers suggesting PTS for problems that they couldn't solve....I wonder how many people actually follow this advice? As for head halters, my dogs musculo-skeletal physio advised against them...said that it would be too dangerous for her, he was actually impressed with the prong. There was a site that hosted and collected signatures for petitions that I can't find at the mo...perhaps this would be handy in any action to help the Victorians out?

In other words you concur that the cruelty is not in the tool, but in the handler? (Quote from Steve Courtney)

My experience with the prong, and yes I'm one of those that were 100% against them until I got educated, is that when its fitted correctly and a proper and gentle method used for its introduction to the dog, its kind of the difference between us wearing thongs and masseur sandals. They take a little getting used to, there is some discomfort, not pain, and you never really entirely forget that you've got them on. I'm sure that my girl would forget that she had me on the end of the lead with other collars, all the purely positive stuff we had been working on...clickers, yummy treats, halties, harnesses you name it...for two years would all go out the window when her natural drives were triggered. She would hit the end of the lead so hard that we have had no fewer than 4 appointments with canine chiropractors and muscular skeletal physio therapists for her back being out, her neck being out and torn muscles in the 12 months prior to us getting the prong. She could deliver herself a level of correction that I would never dream of using on a dog, she would hit the end of the lead sooo hard that sometimes she would flip herself off her feet and come crashing down on her back... it wouldn't slow her down. But we all know that a high threshold to pain is no protection against injury. In the 12 months prior to getting the prong I spent no less than $3000 trying to sort this issue out. How long do you think it would have been fair or humane to carry on in the above fashion for? K&P, dogs as well as people have different thresholds to different stimuli. People have never been selectively bred to concentrate these thresholds like dogs have. The hunting breeds in particular have been selectively bred to have a high threshold to pain so that they could carry out their jobs without losing focus should they get hurt in the same way that the herding breeds have been selectively bred to have low thresholds to pain and stress because this increases their level of compliance. After all, they were bred to work under the direction of their human handlers, where as the hunting breeds were bred to carry out there job without the direction of human handlers....they have bred to have the ability to complete their jobs should the hunt travel rapidly away from the human. But I understand your concern. I too initially judged the prong on its appearance. BTW, I don't like the look of the sharp ends on the plastic prong. Would also be concerned about the end of prongs breaking off and leaving a jaggered edge. ETA: a few more articles to throw into the prong debate: Susan Clothier - Flying Dog Press - Prong Susan Clothier - Flying Dog Press - Head Halters

One method that I've read about but haven't tried yet (so can't really attest to its effectiveness) is to get one lenght of the broad jump and stand it on end, or something else you can use as a low barrier. Call your dog to you from a sit stay (with you standing on the other side of the broad jump) and give her the drop signal as she comes in. Over progressive repetitions, you move back away from the barrier one step at a time, but always give her the drop command as she approaches the barrier. To make sure that she understands what you want, return to her at the barrier to praise her for getting it right a few times. As time goes on you remove the barrier. I think a lot of the problem with the drop on recall is because it is one of the few exercises where one command cancels out another. In every thing else the dog is expected to complete each command. So its not an easy one for the dog to grasp. Some training issues that I can see with this that may arise: Some dogs that are over trained in the drop on recall slow down on normal recalls in anticipation of the drop command. So make sure that the drop on recall training is mixed in with heaps of straight recalls. The dog might lose the plot once the barrier is removed, so perhaps it might be best to gradually decrease the size of the barrier? My Girl is nowhere near us needing drop on recall for the ring yet, but when I have a bone to give her, I wait until she is involved in something else...I don't leave her on a sit stay all the time, then I call out for the drop, no matter what it is she is doing. Then I take either take the bone to her or toss it in her direction. I don't just want a good drop on recall, I want her to want to drop no matter what else she might be doing. Be it chasing butterflies or heading to the dam for a swim or going to investigate a strange noise or just wandering in the garden. I sometimes add a recall for her to come and get the bone from me.

Hi Steve, I'm just reading through the TOT again and note that you have no verbal marker to trigger the drive in TOT like you do for training in prey drive. For a competition dog, would it be handy to have the verbal trigger as well so that the dog knows that food is coming? I could be all confused here, but I'm assuming that the 'ready to work' command is the trigger for prey drive? If I do have the above right, is there a reason why there is no verbal trigger in the TOT?

Hey, I wonder if we could work a 'touch stick' into the drive program for showring gaiting? Get the dog to focus on the end of the stick during the gait for drive reward??? Or would this destroy the focus on handler for the other drive work??

Yes, but the last time we were in the show ring was prior to Steve's workshop and before I actually really understood the whole TID concept. However, after reading and absorbing what I could from here, I razzed my girl up and teased her with a toy B4 we went into the ring...did she break gait? Yup Did she want to play with the lead during the gait Yup But not only did I get the most impressive stack that I've ever had out of her, she also got the best placing that she's ever had in the largest field of bitches that I've ever had her up against. So I know what I did needs some refining, but I'm not sure how to go about that just yet.

Hey Seita, how about adjusting where you stand in relation to your dog? Maybe if you stand out infront at a leads length facing her the focus will just help to refine her stack? Have also had standing out infront suggested to me with the reason being that the dog leans forward into itself and comes up on its toes giving it a more 'ready for action' kind of look.

Bump....just cuz I refer friends to this thread and I'd like to keep it easy to find!

Sounds like an idea out of a book called *Natural dog training* - I forget the authors name but I didn't find it a very helpful book anyway. Natural Dog Training by Kevin Behan, whilst I'm not sure I agree with some of his methods he gives great info on training in drive. ETA: I don't mind that the thread is a year old...I've really enjoyed reading it! If nothing else it is further strengthening my conviction that anthropomorphism is one of the most insidious (sp?) forms of cruelty there is.

Bindibu, I wonder how many clubs have one or two instructors like you describe? I know of a couple myself. Many times they are reluctant instructors and they are there because they show the commitment to be there. Instructing positions are not easy to fill both from the perspective of available and willing bodies and also that they have a training philosophy that has a good fit with the club. The other thing to consider is that the vast majority of people who join dog obedience clubs have absolutely no intention of trialling, they just want a well behaved family pet, so in this instance is it necessary that all instructors have trial titles when they just want a dog that will walk on a loose lead and obey some simple commands and are not necessarily interested in precise heeling? I guess its like HR says, if they can demonstrate an ability to help a handler and their dog achieve results, then they deserve some merit. ETA: Well said Greytmate, you beat me both in timing and eloquence!

not me apart from the sheltie ive always looked at the more obscure obedience propects and risen to the challenge I bet your training style is very flexible and that you probably have a better ability to read dogs for having taken this track! I feel that this experience would have given you a very different view on training issues. Good onya!

If its in Qld, I'd love to come!!!

I like this HR!

I understand and agree with everything said. I don't mean this post to be a bashing session for triallers or their skills, just that titles don't necessarily make good instructors as pointed out....also keeping in mind the adage about the busiest and most successful plumber having leaking taps at home...he's busy cuz he gives excellent service he's in high demand, the fact that he has leaking taps at home is not an indication of his plumbing skills.

I'd also like to see what the owner of the dog is doing at the time of the incidents....sometimes handlers inadvertently send signals and unknowingly encourage and reward the wrong behaviours....kind of like tightening leads on leash aggressive dogs can send the signal to the dog that 'yes, this is a threat' when the handlers real intention is to have a good close hold on the dog so that it can't lunge at another dog...can be a catch 22.

There's another really good point! An excellent trialling handler just may not have the ability to pass on their knowledge, but may end up as an instructor because of pressure from the club?

I am aware situations where people with titles on their dogs believe that they are superior dog trainers to those that don't have titles. I just want those who go looking for training mentors or obedience clubs to know that there are many reasons why really good trainers may not have titles on their dogs: *They may not be interested in competing *If they do compete, they may not be as serious about winning *Some compete for the social outing rather than to win at all costs *They may not have the time to put into their own dogs to train them to competition level standards but they really enjoy helping others achieve their goals. *Titles may not be the end goal of their training program. For example, there are no titles to compete for for assistance dogs or guide dogs for the blind, or excellent family pets where manners and loose lead walking are more important than precise heeling. On the other side of the spectrum, there are some that I know that have titled dogs that: *Will compete with injured dogs on pain killers *Believe that the best way to deal with dog aggressive dogs is to put 2 of them together and punish them when they react. *Believe that the alpha roll is the way to punish a dog for dog aggression *Do not assess the dog before implementing a training program. *Will write a dog off as a possible obedience competitor without considering that it may need a different training method, meaning that if you have a problem dog and end up in a class instructed by them they will basically tell you to get rid of the dog, or the dog will never be any good. I'm not saying that all owners of titled dogs are guilty of the above, but just that I know of some who are, so I don't believe that titles alone are an indication of the training expertise of the dog owner.

Hi Feralpup, yes there is a difference (I can say this very confidently now since our K9 workshop weekend before last.) Using a motivator as a reward does not teach the dog to have the strength of mind to move in and out of drive as needed. The drive development period with a prey item does this. For eg, I was talking to an agility competitor regarding this stuff the other night and she said that she won't use a ball in training but uses a tug toy instead because her dog goes nutso for the ball and she can't keep his attention to train when she has a ball. In K9s method, the dog gets to choose the thing that it goes nutso about, you tease him with it and build his frustration over trying to get it so he is in pure drive, and then you show him how easy it is to get by allowing him to capture it when he performs the actions that you require. But you set the circumstances up so that the dog literally falls into the right action to catch the prey. All of the drive development exercises are based on how a dog would become an effective hunter for the pack....so if you think of a pup that initially chases any thing that moves it doesn't score well on the catch scale, as it gets older, it has to start thinking about different ways to go about catching things....and the dog is already hard wired to learn this because of thousands of years of natural selection....if it didn't then it wouldn't be an effective hunter and the dog would have become extinct. So let the dog work itself into a frenzy trying to catch something for a while and then show it an easier way to get it. Dog will always learn to expend the least possible energy to catch a prey item. So if you own the prey item and you select the criteria under which the prey item can be caught 100% of the time, then the dog will always look to you for drive satisfaction because all of the other distractions do not guarantee a 100% return on investment of time and energy. This whole system gives you a much more reliable dog. The thing that you need to attend a K9 workshop for is the exact exercises to perform the drive development and also an assessment of your dog for the best way to apply them to your situation. How'd I go K9?

From what I remember, Ethoxyquin has good antioxidant or preservative qualities but is also a carcinogen. Excellent thread!

On the subject of prongs, I'm interested in methods of disguise for an extremely short haired dog. While I'm willing to work behind the scenes to help promote the prong as a good tool with professional guidance on its use,(and I'm actually working on this) I don't want every time that I take my dog out for a walk to become a defence of my chosen and professionally guided methods. Our walks are time for me and my dog. Prob is that the prong does stand out like dogs proverbials on an extremely short haired dog.

Sorry you have to miss out KitKat! Maybe next time...anyone else thinking of organising a workshop in SE Qld next year? ETA: Its not too late for those having last minute regrets of missing out....we still have a few spare places, so PM me for details if you're interested.