Rom

-Melissa Bruce, Clever Paws MDT

What does MDT stand for?

Whoa up there Andoria.

You may have just insulted a lot of people without reason.

You don't have to be a member of DOL to read posts and in fact the types that maybe guilty of harassing your trainer are probably the types who's membership wouldn't have lasted long on DOL anyways.

I don't believe that anyone who replied to your OP on this subject is the type to harass someone to the extent that they feel endangered.

I took my girl to an ADAA club for foundation agility and they trained for the 2on/2off although I see more and more people using the nose touch and I feel that this makes for a safer exit for the dog because they have to push their body weight back to get their head low on the down side of the contact. I remember an agility judge telling me that the lower the dogs head on exit, the less chance of jarring shoulders and pasterns.

Thanx for the link WEIA!

If you were going to cross train and throw in a bit of swimming instead of all the running, how do you reckon that you'd add it? (Thats the dog running while I'm on bike )

I am concerned about all the joint pounding by doing all the running. I wonder if I measure the time it takes us to do the road time and divide it by 3 and spend that much time in the water? They reckon water gives 3 times the work out. I live near a river and I take my boogie board and flippers down and paddle upstream and my dog just follows.

The other q is: Did you do all the distances listed in one hit or did you take a break with the dog in the middle of each run?

Also, did you keep note of the dogs temp and pulse whilst you were training?

Thanks in advance

As for what I'd like to change about our club - how long do you have? ;) One major pet hate of mine is having handlers standing around, especialy in the lower classes - instructor will be helping one particular person but instead of keeping the class moving or doing something, they will get the person to one side (so no one else can learn from the instructions) & spend 10 mins explaining how to get the dog to sit at heel by luring or something similar.

Drives me absolutely batty :shakehead: .

I have to admit that I'm sometimes guilty of that

I hate to see someone struggling and often its a toss up btn letting them struggle till the end of the class and then pull them aside and give them some one on one, or take 5 and fix it now. I think that its a problem that is created by both block heeling patterns and class sizes that are too large. But do you let the handler continue to get it wrong for the rest of the class only to help them at the end? Depending on the issue I prefer to take time to fix it straight away so that the dog is getting a clear message and there is no confusion created.

I'll admit though that I'm probably more suited to working one on one with dogs with issues than I am to a group situation.

As an alternative, lets say that there were a number of short rally-o style courses set up and the instructor could buzz btn the courses helping people with issues. There is still the problem of people being involved elsewhere that wouldn't get the benefit of the discussion btn the instructor and the person with the issue, but at least they could keep moving and working with their dog.

I think that every now and then the people running the club should come into a class and see whats going on, as alot of instrcutors can be outright rude to people

I also love the instructors having their own dog in class to do demos, etc

I love it when another instructor brings there dog into the class I'm teaching and I would actually prefer this to the instructor taking there own dog into a class. We have had issues with instructors who take there own dogs into the class that they are taking paying more attention to their own dog rather than teaching the class. If another instructor has some free time and brings their dog into the class that I'm teaching I like to utilize them to demonstrate and to help clarify points that I'm trying to get across. (I guess it wouldn't have to be an instructor though, could just be someone with more experience?) One of the biggest winners though is that newbies are very self conscious and this sometimes affects how they praise their dog. But when you get another instructor with a dog in the class who is enthusiastically praising their dog, then everybody seems to relax and cut loose a little more with the praise.

more trinaing for instructors i feel the vca ahould run an good trianing program for instructors

Better communication skills

More oppurtunity for ring work

distraction class brining in lots of different things to socialise and trian with people with umbrellas skateboards footys etc

oppurtunitys to trian with other trianers workshop type thing

we run our advanced classes earlier already.

Oh yes, not nearly enough attentions is given to instructor training! Before I got involved with the CCCQ, I was given some old Dog World magazines to read and remember noticing that there was mention that CCCQ affiliate obedience clubs had accredited instructors. That may have been true once upon a time, but it certainly isn't what I found. While it seems that there are a few very experienced triallers, trialling is one thing and teaching is another.

We actually do the skateboard, umbrella, wheelchair, walking frame, flapping loose clothes, bicycle thing.

Some others that I can think of:

-Maximum class size for beginners class to ensure that everyone gets the attention that they need. Twas not a popular suggestion at the meeting that I raised it at because membership numbers were considered more important. (Yeah, I know, income is important too, but at what cost? Unsatisfied drop outs don't do the club any good)

-Our training sessions are 45mins. In beginners I feel that some of this time would be well spent in discussion, explanation and practicing moves without the dog. Then each person bring a dog out at a time to then go through the moves with the dog. I feel that this would reduce the distraction for the green dogs and everybody in class could get a turn at seeing the practical side before they actually have a go without having to worry about controlling a very distracted dog. I could be wrong and I'm happy to have it pointed out, but I just feel that beginner handlers are sooo uncoordinated and their dogs are sooo distracted that it is really hard to ensure that the dog is getting clear messages.

-Have beginners fill out a questionnaire about their dogs to help them realize what their dog is going to work best for rather than the handler or somebody else deciding how the dog will be rewarded. I think that there should also be a question asking the newbies what they want to get out of the club and what they want to be able to do with their dogs, how much time they can spare to practice at home and what they are willing to put into the achievement of their goals. Whilst there are plenty of areas where many clubs seem to need improvement, there is a good proportion of newbies that expect magic over night.

-I think that block heeling patterns are a waste of time and do little to help beginner dogs learn and they are boring for both the dog and the handler. These do little to foster the loose lead walking techniques that work the best when every one is turning or stopping when an instructor calls it rather than having the handler learn to do it when the dog is out of position.

I have applied to do just 2 electives because I remember reading somewhere that you can do other electives at a later date?

See you all there! Well, that is if my application is successful......600 on the waiting list...Wow.

Haven, how many will be accepted for each course?

I have fitted 100's of head collars, you will not injure his neck, as its fitted to the dogs head!!

Try running that by canine chiropractors and physiotherapists!

Oooh - one of my pet topics!! :D

Firstly, the rules state quite clearly that no training aids are allowed in the ring. I can't take treats or a ball in but another trainer can have their dog wearing a check chain for on lead heeling. I say all dogs have to compete wearing flat collars only.

How right you are! I'd never thought of the check chain like that in the ring situation. Funny how something can be right in front of your face....

I'd love to see rally-o introduced too!

Wouldn't an ear pinch make the dog head shy? And then if that was so, wouldn't you get a dog that ducks its head away from you when you went to take the dumbell/bird away from it?

I know of a trialler who uses the ear pinch but he also explains that when it comes time to take the dumbell from the dog, he has to make sure that the approach of his hands comes from below the dogs head level. He may not be using the ear pinch in the same way as some, but I'd still be wary of making a dog head shy.

Yes!!! Will go check the mail box tomorrow!

Cheers for the heads up!

Here's one WWB member that will be very happy!

Hi Guys,

In light of all of the above, do you think that the halti is appropriate in this situation: Competition obedience dog that has excellent loose leash skills, but is dog aggressive so handler uses halti for control where its difficult to control the proximity of other dogs ie, line up for vetting prior to competition?

I understand why the owner is using the halti in this situation, but is it the best option? Having the halti on doesn't stop the dog from aggressing, just gives the handler more control if it does...I wonder if the dog actually feels more stressed because it has less control?

OK, here goes. But I'm gonna copy and paste to save time, so apologies if I repeat something that has already been said.

1: Which type of learning theory is more efficient and gives a stronger result

a- classical condidtioning eg. on appearance of a stranger treats are fed by owner, when stranger leaves treats stop - the dog has a passive role

b- operant conditioning eg. when dog chooses to move towards stranger they are rewarded - possibly use target stick, etc to lure towards stranger

{/quote]

I think that classical and operant conditioning are basically both on the same learning line and I wonder if a dog was left to its own devices to learn, whether you’d get one without the other? The good thing about the clicker training movement is that it demonstrates that learning begins with classical conditioning ie the priming or charging of the clicker which is showing a relationship between two stimuli. Consider the dog that learns to chase a car. First it hears a car coming (audio stimulus) and then it sees the car zooming by (visual stimulus). It draws a relationship between the two stimuli and from there it moves into operant conditioning, which is basically drawing a relationship between an action and a consequence and in this instance the action is the chase and the consequence is the satisfaction of a drive. I don’t think its an either/or situation. I think that you need to start with classical conditioning then move onto operant conditioning because at some stage you want the dog to become active in building its confidence so that it can be confident independent of you.

2: Are the following true or actually misconceptions

a- praise and petting reinforce fear or fearful behaviours

Why would doing something nice cause them to become more afraid? Isn't true fear not an active behaviour (eg choosing to do it), but rather an automatic response. Why is it ok to do classical conditioning in fearful situation eg rewarding, but not ok to praise/pet (which for most dogs is less rewarding than food, toy etc)?

eg shaking/whimper on appearance of trigger - praise/pet to stop reaction - does this cause shake/whimper to occur in different situations or for it to become stronger in the next situation? is the dog thinking if i cry and shake/harder this time when i'm afraid i'm more likely to get a pat.

Fear may start as an automatic response, but dogs are innovative learners and they can get to a point where they can generalise. So they can and do learn that if I want attention, I need to be afraid, or I know that mum won’t make me do x if I’m afraid. I once heard about a dog that had learned to vomit on cue. Owner thought the dog was really sick because it kept vomiting but extensive tests could not reveal a cause. A behaviourist observed both the owner and the dog over a period of a couple of hours, noted that the owner was unintentionally cueing the behaviour, dog vomitted and got rewarded with attention and pats. On the human level we know that a yawn is an automatic response to depleted oxygen levels in the blood stream, but if we pretend to yawn, we can generally ellicit genuine yawns in response, not only from ourselves, but those around us (including our dogs!). This is where anthropomorhism is so dangerous to dogs, just as our pretend yawns increase our blood oxygen levels, pretending to be fearful does increase the chemicals related with stressful responses in the dogs blood stream and the dog can develop stress related illnesses. Classical and operant conditioning can be occuring without us realising it!

I believe that its best to totally ignore fearful behaviour...its bl@@dy hard because everything inside me is screaming 'I just want to protect this dog and reassure it', but that is a human emotion...not a dog one. The most I can do is remove the dog from the situation until I can set up conditioning exercises.

b- punishment is contraindicated (eg increases fear, or hides the reactions)

Is the association the dog is creating being paired with his reaction or with the trigger. Are we changing the emotional state in the right direction? Can punishment be used eg. if dog reacts to trigger then something good gets taken away ie owner, but dog must stay in presence of trigger.

As for punishment in this situation? That would depend on whether the behaviour is genetic or learned...thats something that only a pro could assess. If the behaviour is genetic, then I believe that punishment would be counter productive, but a learned behaviour can be unlearned and punishment/correction may be appropriate in this instance, especially if the behaviour is risking the health of the dog. In the example of the dobe above, a pop on the check chain was used to interrupt the dog the instant it started heaving. I once watched a demo where a show poodle was turning to jelly on the table when the judge approached to examine it. To figure out whether the behaviour was learned one the environment was changed a little ie, handler other than owner was used and poodle was taken off the table. In this situation, the dog didn't go to jelly. For some reason it had learned to fear being approached by a stranger on a table. Punishment/correction wasn't to fix this problem, rather a pressure/release method where the pressure was the judge taking one step toward the table from a distance, if the poodle didn't react the release=reward of the judge moving away and the handler rewarding for confident behaviour. Judge slowly increased the number of steps he took towards the table before providing the release. I think this is operant conditioning with a twist! Sometimes a reward can be removing something from the environment!

As for punishment/correction the timing would have to be exquisitly fine if it were deemed necessary, and would have to be used with the intention of shocking the dog out of one drive so that you can reward in another ie shocking out of defence drive and returning the dog to pack drive. For my level of knowledge at this time…this question is probably best left to the professionals! In the instance of the dobe, if the dog were genuinely ill I believe that it would have just learnt ‘Its not OK for me to vomit in the presence of people, therefore when I need to vomit, I’ll hide.

3: Do the following techniques for either classical conditioning (a) or operant conditioning (b), have the down sides of proceeding comments.

a- Positive conditioned emotional response - potentially hardest to get right, due to timing and being persistant (need to always provide reward on appearance of trigger) - can often be harder to control the trigger eg if red bus is trigger it is not that controllable.

As with all training its best to start in a low distraction environment, so the conditioning should start away from the fear trigger where the dog is not showing signs of stress. That way in the initial learning stages it is easier for the dog to learn exactly what it is being rewarded for and also easier for us to be rewarding the correct behaviour.

When you’re dealing with fearful dogs there is another variable to consider and that is critical distance. There is an invisible line that you can cross and when you pass this point the dog can not only lose all ability to learn, but also you can undo the training that you’ve done to this point. So its important that you know what the dogs critical distance is and work to keep the an attitude of confidence in the dog. The critical distance from the fear trigger can be decreased when you know that you can get and keep the dogs focus for short periods of time and then you can gradually increase the time that you spend on the other side of the critical distance line. By holding the dogs focus, then crossing the line briefly at first, you show the dog that it could get closer to the trigger with nothing bad happening.

So in short, yes, if you’re trying to condition a response in the presence of the trigger. But if start conditioning the response away from the trigger in a distraction free environment then work with the critical distance issues, no. Basically you need to raise the dogs threshold to the trigger in a gradual manner. This we can control.

b- Luring - false readings if the lure is so much more enticing than what the fear issue is, causing dog to not notice the fearful thing - association is not created

Association is still created, its just in a very diffused form because you have prevented the dog from entering one drive by keeping it in another. The trigger is still there. You’ve basically broken the problem down and are delivering it in chunks that the dog can deal with and maintain a confident attitude. You’re teaching the dog that it can be in the presence of the trigger without bad things happening. This builds confidence.

Cajoling/happy talk - may mask fearful symptoms if dog is extremely social or attached (similar to above) eg if afraid of stairs, will bolt up to get to someone, but won't go near of own choice.

Counter-commanding - have a requirement for this command to deal with situation - does not necessarily learn to deal directly with situation (needs to be done as trigger appears, or as a response to stopping reaction, not as a response to starting reaction)

The picture in my mind I have of the above is not one of a dog that is masking symptoms, but rather one that is switching between two different drives depending on both the trigger and the value of the percieved reward. After all, its not yet going up the stairs confidently. Confidence comes with time and repetition. Some beginner agility dogs have the same issues with the contacts. The problem is just broken down for them and given to them in steps that they can confidently handle.

4: Working dogs in regards to behavioural thresholds - should we be working above or below thresholds, in what situations and what are thresholds eg which is above the threshold - stare, growling, lunging, exploding. If working above threshold (because very likely to happen in the real world with the dog and owner and they need to know how to deal with situation) do we try to get something positive out of it whilst still in the situation, or just move away and regroup/retry.

I think that the training should start below the behavioural thresholds with consideration given to low distraction and critical distance and a gradual elevation on the pressure given by these two criteria with the aim of raising the dogs threshold to the trigger. Also I think a closer attention to the finer behaviours like those identified in the work with calming signals rather than waiting until the gross behaviours like stare, growl, lunge and explode happen. By the time the lunge and explode have happened, the learning opportunity has been missed.

Wow. Thanks for asking these questions, Tim. I've used them as a test for what I know (or what I think I know might be more to the point)! Have typed up 2 pages of answers and am waiting for the pro's to come on before I mark myself! Sometimes school never goes out!

There will be mention on this forum of controversial training tools such as prong collars and e-collars. Many of us come to here to learn from people who’s dog training knowledge comes from not only years in the fields of animal behaviour, but also police, search and rescue and military backgrounds. These people train dogs to have fast and enthusiastic compliance under such heavy distractions as bombs, bullets and attack by hostile forces.

In their training methods they recognise two things. The first is that the dogs drive and enthusiasm for the work has to be maintained for the protection of human life. The second is that any form of cruelty, or inappropriate use of correction or training tools, kill the dogs drive and enthusiasm for its work and hence its reliability in compliance to given commands; this puts human life at risk.

The knowledge and understanding of these two criteria have led the professionals on this forum to develop sensitivities in the use of the above training tools that will be hard for the uneducated and uninitiated to understand.

Whilst this forum will promote and protect your freedom to disagree with the use of the above training tools in your own given circumstances, at no time will it tolerate hostile comments, accusations of cruelty or challenges to training knowledge. Titles in the comparatively distraction sterile environment of the obedience ring do not qualify you to challenge the knowledge and experience of the above mentioned professionals, nor those of us who have sought their professional opinion and guidance, in such a manner.

The professionals that visit this forum give us their time and their guidance for free. I personally would like them to keep coming back without having to continue suffering attack and derogatory comments from uneducated amateurs.

The day my dolfin will start to pull me around the neighbourhood Ill ask you tds for some advice as you are clearly experienced in the field.

Classic!

Let me guess...multiple titles....dogs from working or gun dog groups....a training know it all that wouldn't even to attempt to title a dog from the hound group for example...and let me guess...why would that be so??

Who lied? Who on a training forum isn't training their dogs?

Hey Myszka, that photo is beautiful....love the focus you have there!

BTW, I wouldn't mind the title of the book that you're talking about....

This is where the issue is getting a little confusing I think....the above could cause a collapsed trachea, but not oesophagus. The oesophagus is basically a tube that is surrounded by smooth muscle. It is always in a collapsed state until you actually swallow at which time peristalsis engages the smooth muscle to push the food into the stomach. Also, the trachea is infront of the oesophagus, and its the trachea that has rings of cartilage that hold it open...necessary to facilitate breathing and houses the larynx. The trachea would sustain damage way before the oesophagus. Thats why I feel that either the story is suss or the vet is suss.

Sorry Ruthless, didn't mean to offend. My answer was worded a little insensitively and I hope you can accept my apologies for that.

I had another thought though, perhaps the damage was caused before the prong was used...the right dog could collapse a trachea on a flat collar. Perhaps the ladies vet just blamed it on her use of the prong because maybe the vet hasn't taken the time to be educated on them?

I don't know how you'd collapse the oesophagus before you collapsed the trachea.....sounds suss to me. A collapsed trachea may lead to wheezing sounds, but you don't breathe through your oesophagus. I think she was talking out of her ......BTW how was her breath?

Don't know if the "keeper" of the submissions will provide them, or even if they have been kept. But will ask. Might be a start.

If they still exist they should be available under FOI Act.

What year was the legislation put in place? Anyone know?

Where do we start?

Do we form an association? Start fundraising to get legal help? Do we look for a sympathetic pollie and start collecting signatures for petition for this stuff to be raised in parliament, and if we do, how do we word the petition...need to get it right the first time? Do we look for a film maker wanting to make a contoversial documentary? Or all of the above?

I've never been in on the beginning of something like this before, so whilst I'm happy to start, don't want to go be the fool charging in and causing more damage or making the fight harder.

Here Tis:

"Breeds like the pit bull, for instance, were raised specifically for the purpose of fighting - called upon to do so, they draw on that savage nature to the full. My method cannot remove these basic instincts from any dog, whatever its breed. What it can do, however, is allow people to manage their pets so that the confrontations that bring out this aggressive nature never takes place."

Gotta give the lady kudos for being honest about saying what she can't help, but did she have to mention a breed? Isn't the above the same as saying that any dog that has a low threshold to a trigger to a specific selectively bred for drive cannot be helped by the method?

Perhaps try to introduce the plastic prong first on a restricted basis and then slowly work towards the metal variety??

I'd be worried that the plastic prong could do more harm than good to the debate. If you're trying to sell a concept based on a quality product, you don't demo the concept with a cheap imitation

You'll have a hard time convincing some people.

I recently had Steve (k9) lined up to do a workshop at our club and someone on the committee looked at his website, saw he promoted the use of prongs and also did protection training, and they decided they didn't want to be involved. It wasn't open for discussion at all.

This sux, eh?! One thing that I took away from the Jan Fennell seminar that I like is the following quote: "The mind is like a parachute...it only works when it is open" Best thing to do here is to impress them with the performance of your dog after training with Steve's methods.

It looks like the Vic legislation is based on a very shaky foundation and I'm all up for anything I can do to help here!

ETA: another thought. If the RSPCA was involved in forming the legislation perhaps they can be asked for stats on what objects have actually been used to perpetrate the cruelty in cases that they have actually been able to prosecute? Things that come to mind are dogs being cooked in ovens, dogs being thrown out of windows, dogs being dragged behind cars, dogs being battered with blunt instruments...nothing to do with training equipment!

The other thing that I find hypocritical is that check chains are known to cause injury, yet why is it that they haven't fallen under the same legislation?