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I think that training in drive comes in its best form when you find which drive your dog is stongest in and use that to mold the behaviours that you're looking for. I think its more about working with the instincts of the dog or as K9 says, find out what the dog is bringing to the table that you can work with, and depending on the dog, that might be pack drive rather than prey drive. With the Kelpie as an example, the herding behaviours are basically prey drive behaviours, or those behaviours that are associated with hunting, chasing, catching and killing. Only Kelpies basically aren't allowed the kill, but most Kelpies just get drive satisfaction out of the out of the chase anyways i.e. they don't really need to get to the catching and killing in order to get drive satisfaction. (If I've worded that awkwardly I know the Kelpie owners will let me know ) If we are talking about working Kelpies on a farm, the farmer might have a few dogs of varying ages. The young less experienced dogs might lose their head at the slightest trigger that they might be going herding eg the farmer gets the ute out of the shed and maybe by some other signal, either intentional or not, the young dogs start barking and running in circles on their tie outs in anticipation of the herding experience. The older or more experienced dogs, whilst no less keen for the chase are calmer because they have learned that there is a routine involved with with getting ready to herd the cattle and anyways they have got wait to get the go ahead from the boss. So even though the older dogs are keen and focused because they also got the signal that they are going to get to chase, but they are not wasting energy until it really matters, but when they do use energy its a more efficient and focused use but no less enthusiastic than the younger dogs. The younger dogs on the other hand are getting frustrated cuz they haven't learned the routine and they are trying to solve the problem of getting the satisfaction as soon as they are triggered. The way that a younger dog tries to solve the problem is by throwing every thing he's got at it by way of speed, strength, noise...he's trying out everything he's got. Now lets say instead of the routine of getting ready to go out to herd, after giving a trigger, we inserted obedience or agility exercises instead of say, loading the gear and the dogs on the ute, opening the appropriate gates and what ever else you do when you're getting ready to go out to herd. Then after the obedience or agility exercises we give the release to go and herd. Or in other words after you get the trigger, this is the routine we go through before you get the release to go and herd. In the case of a working dog living in town without a herd, he gets a ball thrown so he can satisfy that drive to chase. Training in drive is basically mimicking the whole process that the young dog went through from the frustration stage to the calm, efficient, enthusiastic, focused stage of the older dog. But there's more to it than just throwing the ball as a reward and that's where learning about drive training from the pro's is invaluable. I believe that drive training could be adapted to any positive drive in any dog. So I think that it opens up a whole lot more options. I don't think its an either or situation, and I think that it would actually help give all types of dogs a greater sense of calm because they have had their drives satisfied. I think that it is working with the instinct of the dog infront of you and showing it how to satisfy that instinct.

And how does the criteria that they are judged on differ? I'm curious about this because I think that some of the criteria that is judged on in ANKC obedience has vague application in the real world. For example, even though I train for a drop stay with no movement, in the real world if I have to leave my dog on an extended stay I don't mind if she shifts to improve her comfort so long as she stays down. So is this different in Schutzhund?

I so agree with this! And this! I believe that you need to train for a higher standard of criteria than what will be judged in the ring otherwise you are setting both yourself and your dog up for failure, frustration and wasting more money on travel and entry fees. All negative experiences IMO and impact on the nerves and confidence of both the dog and handler. (I'm speaking from personal experience on this one ;) ). I was stewarding for a novice ring at a trial recently where the recall distance was longer than what the rule book called for (rule book says approx 12 meters, actual distance being judged on was around 14-15 meters...I know this because I did a step out measurement when I was placing the markers for the stays. And since 'approx' is not definitive, its open to interpretation by the judge) No competitor actually questioned the distance being judged on until one dog blew the recall by racing off to the side to sniff at something interesting on the grass...all of a sudden there were complaints about the recall distance not complying rules. IMHO this is a training issue and not a judging issue. I don't believe that there was anything unfair about the judges call on this because all the dogs were being judged on the same distance. However, I do agree with the OP that some judges make unfair calls. One that I have witnessed was in a SFE with a small breed....judge NQ'd the exercise because as the handler was leaving the dog the loop in her lead touched the ground.

I'm not gonna question anything :p K9 Force :worship:says (Infact, for any Qld'ers that are reading, I'm thinking of getting him back up here next year for a handlers workshop if you have any thoughts, opinions or ideas on the subject.) But do I want to put another thought out there for Kavik and TD just cuz I'm playing around with some ideas. The original criteria (as in TD's case) that was listed in the training goal for the long drop was basically that the dog held the position when commanded under any distractions for the set period of time. You have identified a training issue (and as Tony says above, you're half way to solving a problem once you've identify it) in that the dog breaks the long drop when you are feeling tense/anxious/nervous. So what if you go back to your training goal and add the new criteria of the dog must hold the position even when I am feeling tense/nervous/anxious. How could you then break that criteria down so you could train for it from scratch? (I really do mean that as a question cuz I've got one idea but I'd like to hear others in case reasons that I haven't thought of give my idea a fatal flaw) So, what if you identify other triggers for tense/anxious/nervous feelings eg. Blind date, getting married, starting new job, job interview...I dunno...help me expand on the list here and you start your long drop training from scratch again in an environment where you can control the consequences? Still just thinking

I've been wondering about a whole different approach to this kind of problem. Think of police or military dogs that are trained to comply to a signal command no matter what is happening or what is different in the environment. Consider that the handler may get injured or partially incapacitated during the exercise, but if he deploys the dog, the dog is still expected to comply even though the injury or incapacitation might hamper the signal or command. The other thing is that the handler in these real life exercises is very likely to be feeling stressed and anxious because of possible threat or danger, but the dog is still trained to comply regardless of how the handler is feeling or acting. In order to achieve this, how would you change the structure of your training program and the types and variety of distraction you may start training with? I know of people whose dogs don't comply to a recall command unless they use a particular tone and pitch of voice. So what happens if you get a cold and your voice sounds different? Should we train for this possibility by putting a peg on our nose occasionally? Or do we train that come means come no matter what is happening with my voice. (Pity the poor kid going through puberty whose voice is cracking :p ) One thing that I saw that got me thinking on this was at a trial. Prior to going into the ring the handler tripped over and broke a couple of ribs on her left side. (She didn't realise at the time that her ribs were broken) She was very pale and obviously in pain, but she still entered the ring. She was holding her left arm tightly against her side, and she was listing and hunching a little in that direction in order to help with the pain in her side. The visual cues that she had to give with her left hand were very diluted and different. Her verbals were obviously a little strained and she could only give the recall signal by raising her right arm alone. Her dog still complied to everything she asked of him. You could see that he wasn't reacting to the signals/ as confidently as he normally would, but he still complied. So do we teach the dog that heel means heel even if I'm hopping, swimming or staggering like a drunkard. That finish means finish even if I'm sitting on the ground or jumping up and down on the spot. Do we introduce so many varieties of movements and voice tones and pitches that the dog generalises the behaviour to all these possibilities? Still thinking on this one

I can identify with that too SD The first Novice Sweepstakes that I fronted up to I got there really early cuz I was nervous and wanted plenty of time to settle both me and my girl. Some of the host club members turned up soon after to set up the canteen. They had a loud speaker system that they didn't realise they had left turned on, and they were talking about the entries for the night....'and we've got a silly ridgeback entered' Didn't do much for my confidence levels on the night.

Ain't that the truth! If you were to do that at the only club that I have access to, not only would you get pulled up about it on the field, but there'd be no end of bitching about it at committee meetings. Everyone in the class must be doing exactly the same thing at the same time in strict regimental fashion....kind of leads to the prob that WMR mentioned above. I was doing ring run out practice with a young dog that I was trying to extend the focus period with I asked 2 different instructors if they'd call 'exercise complete' after each pace i.e. normal, slow, fast. Was just one of the things I was working with to try keep/build her attitude and focus. They both argued against it because that's not the way its done in a trial. Isn't it customary to break a task down for a dog to help it understand/set it up for success?

I'm guessing that to some dogs this would be +P? ETA: What does NRM stand for?

My dog exhibited the fact that she was feeling more pain (by the above definition) when she was fitted with the halti/gentle leader than what she was when she was fitted with the prong. Since the halti/gentle leader is the tool of choice for the RSPCA I wonder if they would have also thought that the halti/gentle leader was cruel in this instance? Or do they believe that cruelty has a time span...you can be cruel until the dog gets used to the cruelty i.e. stops reacting and thats OK? Maybe we should just rename the prong and call it the 'Shiatzu Massage Training Collar'...there's much to be said for the power of emotive marketing.

Yeah, but at least here we get to see the answers to questions we didn't think to ask K9: difficult question to answer in other than a very long explanation, but the basics are: Often some ob clubs dogs to do certain things to get a certain reward or avoid punishment. They reward the dog NOT going into drive... This often produces a dog that will not go into drive in the close vacinity of te handler, I call this the "12 foot circle of control". This means that the dog is heavily controlled with the realms of the 6ft leash (circle around the handler that is 12 feet in dia.) This makes it very hard or I believe impossible to get the most out of the dog in terms of drive... I also feel that you can inflate the dogs prey drive to its genetic capablility if the dog is trained in drive from very young (I start 6 weeks ol with my own pups, 7.5 weeks with a pup I would buy).. I think some of that capability is lost if you start other programs first, specially those that deal with teaching the dog to focus or be calm first. I so agree to this as far as my personal situation goes! I still utilise my dog club, but in a more informal and irregular way. I don't actually put my dog in a class any more, rather use the club activities as distraction, and work off to the side on my own. I'm getting much more enthusiastic results. It gives me the flexibility to release her for the reward when her actions dictate rather than when an instructor tells me to. I can work her in time slots that protect her level of focus and attitude and extend these time slots as she develops without risking focus and attitude. If I were doing all this in a class with the way things are done at my local dog club, we would just be either disrupting the class or destroying what we have achieved so far. I'm really impressed and happy with the way she is working at the moment and she is much happier with the work too.

Hi Erny :D When you open the link, keep scrolling down. Its quite a long page once it has finished loading and they have left large blank areas. It does get down to the details of the case. In short HW makes some untrue claims about the e-collar (apparently even presents false evidence in court). Court awards Innotek $50k from HW and $100k from RSPCA. Court also awards HW $20k or $30k from Innotek because they apparently said something naughty about him back ETA: Thats my memory of it anyway....haven't read through it for about 6 months

These days I'd probably feel comfortable telling those that threatened to report me to go ahead. The RSPCA would have to be able to prove a case of cruelty in order to take any action and I can't see how they could do it unless the tool was being used in an abusive way....the same as with any other training tool. I note that in the RSPCA training material from Qld they say something like :"We don't use prongs/check chains because they don't suit our style of training" (Thats not exactly the wording because I don't have the paper work with me at the moment) But I remember noting at the time that they selected their wording very carefully to avoid using the word 'cruel'. I suspect that the Hugh Worth/RSPCA vs Innotek fiasco has something to do with that. Read about it here. In any case, since being cruel to animals is illegal, and if somebody accuses you of being cruel because of the training equipment you use, wouldn't you have grounds to defend yourself? I mean, isn't that like slander/libel? I wonder if training clubs can legally enforce this? Wouldn't they have to be able to prove that the tool is cruel....not just say that in their opinion it is without any proof? Cruelty is the only reason that they use and if that can be shown to be untrue, then what reason do they have?. They say in that article that the info from the study comes from an Anne Marie Silverton seminar. I googled Anne Marie Silverton, found a website with an email address and contacted her last year trying to chase down the exact notes of this study.....I didn't get a reply so I wonder if this study was actually done? I understand that in certain parts of the world, all police and military dogs are autopsied after they die regardless of the cause of death, and apparently it is from the results of these autopsies that police and military handlers prefer prongs over some other collars....but I can't find any info on that either. I am really eager to see what Denis comes up with

Hi Denis, Could you please add me to your CC list too? I was already a member of a club when I saw K9 about some of my training issues with my dog and he suggested a prong. However, I already knew my clubs stance on the prong when I got mine, so decided that I would not put my dog in class until her issues were sorted. I still had to be at the club on training nights though because I also volunteered there, so I used to go early and put my girl through her paces before club hours started. Training nights are held at a public field. At the first meeting of this year the officer in charge of training and the president of the club basically said that I could not train my dog at the field, even outside of club hours, if I was using the prong. Funny thing is that the only methods that they could suggest for dealing with my dogs issues involved harsh corrections that really adversly affected the spirit of my dog....she seemed to just sink in on herself...not go submissive but more just lose spark and interest. I refused to do it. I quite like her spirit the way it is and the prong doesn't affect that. The RSPCA will only get involved with any training equipment issue if there is an injury and I've got to tell you that with the way my girl was lunging on lead she would have been more likely to sustain an injury on a flat collar than she is on the prong. In fact, she had put her back out at 12 months of age and the injury was continually being aggravated by her lunging on lead until we got the prong. BTW, because of the issues at dog club, I also reported myself for using a prong collar to both the CEO and the local cruelty inspector for the RSPCA up here last November...they haven't come looking for me yet Whilst they are not illegal up here in Qld, I'd love to be part of any action that will help them be a more widely understood and accepted training tool :cool:

Cheers for that Lou. K9, nice to see you posting again

Oooh yeah...totally agree

I actually joined an obedience club so that I could learn the difference btn left and right (just joiking) Interestingly enough, you can also cue which way you're about to turn by pointing your toes in that direction....funny thing about this is that when I do a right turn and I point the toes on my right foot out, a tendon on the inside of my thigh clicks, so my girl also gets an audio cue as well

Hi Lou, (Sorry to go off topic here ) I have read your crittering protocol in the past and had wondered if it would work on dog to dog aggression....what types?

If I was starting over with my current dog.....I'm not sure that I'd begin her training at a club. Later on I'd attend the club for ring run out practise etc. For her there was just too much distraction. I'd probably take her along as a pup for socialisation in the early days, but not actually train her there until later.

I know all your life you wonder 'Bout that step we all take alone How far must a spirit travel on its journey? Must surely be near Heaven, And it thrills me to the bone..... To know that Page knows the great unknown (From a Rick Springfield song) God bless Page, her family, Siv and Ambervale.

Hey anyways Squeak, maybe the material will be fresher in your mind than for those of us who have a few more weeks of studying later materials to fit in before the assessment....every cloud has a silver lining....or is that every silver lining has a cloud?

Ooooh yeah! I totally agree with all of the above! Nothing like studying something you love to learn about, hey?

One of the things I used to do (and its funny cuz I mainly had to do it with BC's too now that you point it out) was to initially avoid standing over them for the exam. I mainly found that if the dog was gonna crash to the ground, it would happen the instant that I started to bend over. I'd walk up and squat beside them at about an arms length, with my shoulder facing them and without looking at them, reach out and touch them lightly on the shoulder...just briefly at first, then get up and move move away. Over progressive attempts I would being moving closer, standing more and touching more depending on the reaction from the dog. I'd also instruct the handler to not wait for me to call return to dog, but they were initially to return and praise/reward the dog the instant that I started moving away...once again increasing the time over successive attempts.

I don't believe affiliation with a governing body guarantees that there will be an accredited trainer/behaviourist on hand or supervising anyone as things stand at the moment. I'm speaking from my perspective of what I know of CCCQ and their affiliated clubs. If it were otherwise, you'd expect to see such governing bodies providing seminars, workshops and testing for candidates for said accreditation in the same way that they do for judges, and to my knowledge that doesn't happen. (May be different with the VCA) At obedience clubs, what you're more likely to see is people who have been involved in competition obedience for a long time who are the stalwarts of the club and whilst I don't mean to denigrate the hundreds of volunteer hours that they have put in, my experience is that they are inflexible and non progressive in their training approaches. They pay more attention to those dogs and handlers who have competition obedience potential than they do to those dogs and handlers who are having behavioural issues. There is just as much damage done to some dogs and handlers by those obedience clubs that fall into the above categories (hoping that I've worded this to not offend instructors at those clubs that are progressive, flexible in their approaches, and keep their education up dated :D ) as there is by some trainers in the private field. However, these clubs can still hold up their affiliation to the governing body as an indication that they can solve a dogs problems when this more often than not is not the case. I've heard far too often for my liking, titled obedience competitors who also instruct, say to pet owners who have absolutely no intention of trialling things to the effect of "You might as well get rid of that dog, he's never going to be any good" which just indicates to me that they either don't have the answers for the problem, don't believe there is an answer, or they don't care. They don't even refer to a qualified behaviourist when they can't deal with an issue. If it were otherwise, you'd see these dogs and handlers getting the help they need. I feel that the existing governing bodies have a lot to answer for in this problem and that they need to make changes. I think that they also need to realise that by not having training and accreditation for instructors at affiliated clubs that in an indirect way, they contibute pet dumpage rates.

Just another of those occasions when I wish I could see video's on this poor old computer. :D

What does MDT stand for? It stands in her case for mobile dog training. Phew! I was having nightmares that it might have stood for Master Destraint Therapist