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Arya: ;) That would have definitely been a case for a cruelty report IMHO. Things like that make me sooo angry, and for that very reason I believe that check chains are too freely available as well. The dumb thing about scenario's such as above is that if a cxn was warranted (speaking in general terms as opposed to fear aggression in particular), why would you use a tool where you need to give a level of correction that rips a dog off its feet? Why would you not select a more appropriate tool for that dog in that situation? Its the lack of understanding in these issues that actually in a fashion serve to promote abuse of any given training tool. I find that the lack of understanding can continue is abhorent, I don't understand why the powers that be can ban one tool, but allow the above to go on unchecked. I know its off topic, but this is the very reason why I believe that all people who train/instruct other people with their dogs should have to pass some sort of accreditation...regardless of whether they are volunteers or not. But I have heard of something similar being suggested to a handler of an aggressive dog at my club...thank Dog somebody stepped in and showed them an althernate way that took into account the dogs mind/beliefs in the situation. As an aside, I visited a club recently where PP methods are promoted, however because the grounds that they were using were not fenced and close to a busy road, they insist that dogs wear check chains, martingales or haltis so that there is less chance of an accident because dogs were less likely to slip a collar. What you see there is a bunch of people using leads like they are steering wheels instead of a line of communication, so the collars are always tight regardless of whether or not the dog is doing the right thing. Talk about mixed messages.

I'd love to dabble in Schutzhund, but I don't think my chosen breed is an accepted one. I can see the unfairness in ANKC obedience and would love to learn more about alternatives. BTW, even though I've dabbled in tracking, agility, lure coursing, and obedience....I'd probably do more if I had the finances to. So wouldn't really qualify as a tart....just a wannabe

This is a good reason why people who live in other states need to consider supporting Erny's proposed submission. Since the ANKC is based in Vic, it must abide by the laws and ban the use of the collar for its affiliate clubs. This affects those clubs in every state that has an affiliation with the ANKC because in order to maintain that affiliation, the clubs in other states have to agree to abide by the rules of the ANKC. When the subject of the prong come up with CCCQ, even though the CCCQ didn't have anything mentioned in its own rules in regards to prong use, they prohibit its use. They quote the Qld animal cruelty laws which also do not make mention of the prong....basically because it is not illegal in Qld. However, because of this twist of affiliation, you will not be allowed to use the prong at ANKC affiliated clubs in other states even if you have sought the advice/training of an accredited behaviourist/trainer. A change in the VIC laws, I believe will help many from other states as well.

Just after an update to see how things are going If there is anything else that can be done to help, let me know.

I don't think it matters what hand signal you use so long as it is clear and you are consistent. Also, and correct me if I'm wrong, I don't think it matters what words you use so long as they are in English....well for trial purposes anyway.

Wow, wish I could do something to help I wish I knew more so that I could suggest something. Hopefully someone will come on soon with some suggestions. All I can do is send you the best wishes I can muster, and that feels a little lacking Siekah is fine. Come into season the Friday after I got back and has been a little sooky with it. ETA: By the way, how are things going with the neighbour that complained about the barking? I don't want to raise any undue suspicion, but I hope that nothing untoward has happened from that direction.

Hey, hope everything is Ok. Give Hunta a hug for me (when she is calm of course) Maybe I could send down some more shoes? Help her keep her mind off the scary things maybe. Hope someone comes up with something of more help for you

So is anxiety a product of a comparatively low threshold to stress and pain and is it this that makes a dog 'biddable'? And if the above is true, then wouldn't true 'aloofness' be a product of confident independence or a high threshold to stress and pain? When I picture an 'aloof' dog I see a dog that has an attitude of "Sure, you can pat me if you like, but I don't need you to" And just to complicate things more....I guess its possible that a dog could waver between anxious and aloof depending on the situation.

Here's a contribution that I'm not sure will help. A pro trainer whose seminar I attended, maybe going back 2 years or so had the following to say about the characteristics of alpha's, beta's and omega's in the pack: Alpha: High threshold to pain. High threshold to stress. Less likely to bite, but if it does it means serious business and does real damage. Independent and aloof. Low degree of compliance. Calm and confident. Omega: Low threshold to pain. Low threshold to stress. More likely to bite, but less likely to cause serious damage. Requires more interaction with the pack and looks to the pack for guidance. High degree of compliance. Shows more nervous behaviours Betas: can have variations in both the above characteristics and thresholds show more variations. I don't know whether or not the above is true, but I wonder if when man was first domesticating the dog (or dog domesticating man whichever way it really happened ) and was selecting for certain traits for certain purposes, whether intentionally or not, they were also selecting for the above? In general terms, because I do accept that you find all variations of temperament within a breed, when you hear of certain characteristics being tied with a certain breed, you can also tie that characteristic to the purpose for which that breed was originally intended. For example, those breeds that were intended to follow mans directions to fulfil their purpose generally show the omega trend of behaviours. Those breeds that were required to work independently of man generally show the alpha trend in behaviours. So we get ACD's that are likely to be 'nippy', BC's that show appeasement behaviours when they are first introduced to stand for exam from the working dog group. From the gun dog group we get Wei's that show stress behaviours. On the other end of the spectrum from the hound group we get the hard headed dogs that are rare in obedience competitions. The above is just the wanderings of my own idle mind and I'm not sure if it is entirely correct.

Now this poses a problem because the powers that be will always rely on the word of one article in a published journal over 100 testimonials. This makes the inclusion of a pro-prong journal article (peer-reviewed etc etc) a must. Does anyone here have good access to a university database? Hi MsJames, When I was doing research on the prong, I couldn't find any reference to studies backing the anti-prong arguments. My, perhaps mistaken understanding, is that the anti-prong arguments were based on emotive/aesthetic influences rather than study in passing the Vic legislation. Infact I couldn't find anything anti-prong that also didn't also indicate that the prong had been misused in an abusive fashion. You're right though, the pro stuff was only anecdotal in nature. I'd be really interested in reading the results of studies done by the anti-prong lobby though if anyone has any links. Since the prong collar is more widely used in both Europe and the US, perhaps if anyone has contact with any vets over there, maybe thats where we should be seeking information.

I'm still learning lots and my opinions are changing in some areas. While I'm becoming more accepting of the fact that head collars do have a place in the training/management of some dogs, and for the benefit of some handlers, I still reserve some concerns about them for the following reasons and stick by my personal choice of the prong in my own situation: 1. After watching how the dog is effectively led/directed/controlled by the chin I did the following exercise on myself. I don't recommend that anyone do it mind you.... In a standing position, I did some shoulder shrugs and head rolling to make sure I was relaxed. I then placed two fingers on the side of my chin and 'flicked' my head to the side so that I ended up looking over my left shoulder. I heard crunches, grinds and cracks in my neck. I also developed a dull ache in the lower cervical vertebrae area. Now, I was completely prepared for this action, focused on what was about to happen and knew what was coming up. Dogs in Haltis/Gentle leaders are rarely as prepared for such an action. However the movement that the dog is subjected to is more of a compound angle in that it is both to the side and up. 2. The next is a hypothetical situation but I'm sure that it is one that we can all relate to. Our action movie hero is stuck behind enemy lines without weapons. There is an armed sentry blocking his escape route to freedom. Under the cover of darkness our hero sneaks up behind the sentry and reaches over the sentries shoulder grabs him by the chin and in one smooth action twists his head to the side and up. In this way our hero effectively neutralises and disarms the sentry. I agree that we don't see dogs that wear halties/gentle leaders suffering from broken necks nor immediate symptoms that they have sustained injury. However with the above in mind, I feel that injury may be much more likely than many supporters or users of these tools may know of and or accept. My fear/reservation pertains mainly to the effect that these sorts of stressors on the cervical vertebrae and soft tissues in the neck can have over time. Also, in my time as an animal husbandry student at Gatton Ag College. I participated in a practical session in which bull calves of approx 3-400kgs weight were being castrated. The lecturer who weighed somewhere btn 90-100kgs was able to single handedly put these calves on the ground using the a similar movement. Standing on the left of the calf he reached over and grabbed the calfs right ear, held the calfs lower jaw with his other hand, twisted its head to the side and up, and simply walked backwards to lay the calf down. Given the difference in size and body mass of the dog in comparison to handlers, I feel that this action/movement of the neck is dangerous overkill. 3. This point is in regards to the principles of leverage which I believe is the main principle that allows the halti/gentle leader to give some handlers control of some dogs. This is from high school maths, so its a bit rusty. A lever allows you to apply more force with less effort. There are four parts to a lever. The lever itself, the fulcrum, the load and the effort. In regards to a dog on lead wearing a halti/gentle leader the lead would be the lever, the dog would be the load, and the handler supplies the effort. The fulrum bears the force of both the load and the effort, but the question is in this scenario, where is the fulcrum? Some might argue that the fulcrum is the point at which the lead connects to the halti/gentle leader and there is some evidence to support this. But there are many classes and styles of levers. Some levers have bends and/or articulating joins in them to help facilitate movement or increase force/decrease effort. With this in mind, my contention and fear is that the fulcrum is at the next possible point of movement which is the dogs neck....bearing the force of both the effort and the load. The next thing to consider is that the longer the lever handle, the more force you can apply with less effort. So as Susan Clothier states in her articles smaller dogs may be at more risk of injury simply because there is more lead length between the handlers hand and the lead connection to the halti/gl. 4. When the subject of haltis/Gentle leaders come up in regards to the mention of possible injury, some will state that the Veterinarians who designed and market them have studied injuries suspected to have been caused by them and could draw no definitive conclusion that the injuries were indeed caused by the halti/gl. To my mind this can only be classed as opinion even though it is somewhat educated. Even if we could remove the fact that said veterinarians had a financial interest in the outcome of this opinion, to my knowledge, there is no information as to how the study was conducted. What were used as controls and blinds in comparison? To me the statement of these veterinarians leaves more questions to ask than what they managed to answer. Having said all of the above, I will still consider the halti/gentle leader as an appropriate tool under the right circumstances. But I'll only ever use it or suggest its use with all of the above firmly in mind. Unless of course, somebody out there more knowledgable than me would like to contribute to my education ETA: And I believe the prong is still the best option for my dog since she has suffered a spinal injury that she continued to aggravate on other collars.

Submission sent.

Is there a word limit on the reply?

Good question. You'd think as a control that they'd have made observations of the level of stress behaviours when the handlers were not present, when the e-collar wasn't being worn, or when the dog wasn't in work mode. If they have done that they didn't say.

See you soon Only 2 more sleeps. I'll be the one dressed like the Michellan man cuz I don't cope with the cold I'm also gonna meet Kristie and another mystery DOL'er who lives next door to her

The Dally is my girl, Ellie. I was the only silly one who took dogs As jbbb said, the course is awesome, I just hope that I can retain all of the information we were given and understand my (quickly written) notes Hey Horus, Did your Dallies help you find your way?

Gosh, now your testing my memory. Sweepstakes is kind of like a practice trial but still officially organised you still have judges etc. No scores in a sweepstakes are counted towards titles. I think each club has to run one sweepstakes a year and if I remember correctly they are also used for the practice of judges going for their judges qualifications.

Yeah, CCD is optional. You can go straight to Novice after you've passed at a sweepstakes. But Novice is all offlead now so I guess that some may see an issue with introducing their dog to the trial environment without a lead?

:D

Sorry to take this OT, but its funny how removed from the real world trialling has become at some clubs, isn't it? Two examples that I can think of: Head instructor agreed to put other instructors through ring run out practice. At the end during the group stays instead of standing in a line facing the dogs, the instructors informally stood in a group on the other side of the ring having a chat and a few laughs. Head instructor blew a gasket because 'that doesn't happen in the trial ring' and commented that he was wasting our time doing ring runouts for us :D A game was devised for advanced obedience class that was similar to Red Rover. One at time, handlers left their dogs for recall whilst the rest of the class heeled at irregular intervals and doing 180 deg turns across the path that first dog would have to take to return to handler. The non trialling members had a ball with the exercise and were really happy at how well their dogs performed. Trialling members withdrew from the class and made complaints because....that doesn't happen in the ring ;)

Cool, great to hear from you JBBB. I'm flying down this Saturday and sooooo looking forward to it! :p

I like your post Cosmolo! At a trial I was at last year one handler had a dog aggressive dog that had lunged at a few dogs on the grounds. There were handlers sitting on qualifying scores prior to the stays that withdrew because they didn't want to risk their dogs in the ring with the aggressive dog. I applaud them for their actions in protecting their dogs. I wonder at a system that allows dog aggressive dogs into the ring. ETA: BTW Bow wow, the above is not meant as a criticism of you...I also applaud you for giving consideration to the fact :p

I like shoulder by my leg because I like to be able to tell from peripheral vision where my dog is focussing or if she has lost focus. If her head is by my leg I have to move my head to look at her.

Found a definition of drive that might give another angle to the question: An instinctive motivation that has been modified by experience.

Oh....now I get it. I missed the intention of OP's question, didn't I....sorry (not slow at all) I guess that would be like me wondering with my hunting breed that if she'd had the opportunity to go on a real hunt, would the drive training still be as effective for her, or would she be as enthusiastic about it? Would she still have been able to maintain focus on me when the stray cat walked through our drop stay? Mmmmmm....methinks not, well not with out a corresponding behavioural modification program and actively preventing her from getting satisfaction from real hunts. I guess then in time she'd build the focus and enthusiasm back if the drive training provided her only satisfaction for the drive. She has self triggered on wildlife before, but its always been in the situation where I could prevent her getting satisfaction from it. But then we know that with dogs that don't get drive satisfaction, the need to satisfy the drive can overflow into destructive behaviours and the destructive behaviours decrease when we give drive satisfaction. Or, the dog actively seeks to find anything to do that will satisfy his drive. So I wonder if the answer lies in here somewhere? If with the herding breed for example, if herding was not an available option, does the dog revert back to frustration stage? And if it does, then if you give it an alternate form of drive satisfaction....no, he'd still trigger on sheep regardless (don't worry I think I just answered my own question ) wouldn't he? Or would sheep lose their power as a trigger overtime without drive satisfaction?