Rom

9.15 Refusal of an obstacle.

It is the Judges decision as to when a refusal to take an obstacle has occurred and the Judge will immediately advise the Handler by calling 'Refusal'. The obstacle must be re-attempted.

A refusal should be called when the dog fails to make an attempt (out of disobedience or reluctance)at an obstacle or when approaching:

a) An obstacle, turns (direction of travel) away or stops (unless under direction of the handler) in front of the obstacle it should be negotiating.

If I were judging, this is how I would interpret the rule

It seems a problem of a pedantic interpretation of the rule, rather than a problem with the rule itself. Perhaps some Judges need to ask themselves "What is the primary intention of the dog?" before they make the call.

Wow...thats tough!

Is this ANKC agility that the new refusal rules apply to?

ETA: I meant tough as in harsh rule, not grin and bear it :rolleyes:

I'll admit that we are only in the baby stages of obedience, but I haven't found this an issue yet. I am training the retrieve, but for that exercise looking away from me isn't something that I discourage while she is actually going out. I do ask for eye contact prior to sending her out and when she sits at my feet with the dumbell.

If anything, I think it improves the speed that she applies to the task at hand because as soon as she gets back and gives eye contact she knows that there is a high probability for release for the reward.

I can send my dog outside to sit and wait for her dinner with a drive command on those occasions when I'm not actually feeding as part of training...I am actually sending her out of sight....she runs outside with a fire on her tail and by the time I'm heading out there with her dish, she's sitting at the foot of the ramp staring at the door waiting for me to come out.

I really only use more constant eye contact as a criteria during the heel...I release her randomly during a heel pattern to go get the reward, but one of the criteria for the release is that she is giving me eye contact. I never release her when she is looking at the food dish during the heel.

I've already let Steve and those in the Ridgie thread know of my most recent successes with this program but I thought I'd put them here too both for discussion purposes and to show the power of the method.

I've been training my girl in the TOT for something like 9 months. Initially I was also trying training in prey drive, but it became apparent to me that for various reasons her prey drive wasn't as strong as her food drive. I'm not sure whether that was entirely related to her drives or whether my skill in training in food drive was better than in prey drive.

I had actually pulled her out of obedience classes and competitions because she had put her back out and continued to aggravate the injury because of a leash lunging problem.

Anyways, weekend before last I entered her in her first obedience trial for something like 12 months. It was a double header and in the first trial, she got 87/100 and second place. The second trial she got 96/100 and first place. The judge for the second trial even commented that she'd never seen a ridgeback work the obedience ring with such enthusiasm and drive.

The lower score in the first trial was actually my fault. Under the pressure of the ring I mistakenly dropped in a pack drive command instead of a food drive command and the effect was immediate....she lost enthusiasm and started lagging in the heel.

The thing I love about this program is that it really protects a positive and enthusiastic working ethic in my girl, a total turn around from the beginning of her obedience career. She had already obtained a pass in the ring prior to this method of training of 89/100, but there was no enthusiasm from her and her performance was very hit and miss. She had actually bombed out in the ring on far more occasions. I put the above score down to luck more than the effectiveness of the training program that she was on.

I cannot recommend highly enough Steve's training in drive workshops

Midget Guts looks like a winner to me So cute!

I was talking to the Judge I was stewarding with, she thought it was funny and they would have to make him special jumps if he gets into open in the future

You know, I have a friend who has just started trialling her Pap this year....hadn't even given a thought to the jump heights

....mmmm....now my mind is throwing up pictures of all sorts of battery operated toys..... :rolleyes:

Hi myszka,

The way I am researching the subject is to examine case studies, veterinary/behavioural papers written on the testing and the outcome of tests using these devices to cure animal behaviour. My particular interest lies with the effect to the dogs cortisol and heart rate increase eg... (stress factors) and what effect if any, prolonged or miss use of these devices, would have a long term affect on the dogs health and cognitive functions.

If you are doing this I suggest you do some reasearch into physio papers and how does the TENS machine works and what is the effect of it on muscles, ligaments, human brain activity and so on. What are the results of the prolonged use on low or medium stimuli, which is below the pain threshold level. The outpt current of the ecollar is the same as the TENS.

Good luck

TENS = transcellular electrical nerve stimulation. I had this treatment through a physio in the mid 80's to help heal damaged nerves in my arm. Back then the TENS unit was a huge piece of machinery that you had to wheel around. Now you can buy small take home units that would fit in your handbag. At best, it was a really relaxing sensation. At worst, if the physio set the unit too high, the muscles in my arm would clench in rhythm with the pulse from the unit. Note, the effect was localised to my arm.

I recently had the opportunity to visit an obedience school that specialises in dog aggression problems. It was amazing to see these dogs working on loose lead walking in a social group together. They use an e-collar on some of the dogs there. I actually had the e-collar put on me and I could just percieve the sensation at level 4, most of the dogs there had been trained on level 2 (Brand was Innotek Field Pro I think).

But I guess that raises another question, which is, when did it become acceptable to have a dog graduate an obedience school and still be almost entirely untrained?

You know, I don't think that its so much that it just became acceptable...also that there are elements that it is a case of necessity esp. in a volunteer run not for profit environment. People who raise their hands to volunteer are thin on the ground, but a regular intake of new members is relied on for the club to remain financially viable. If you hold those back that who aren't getting anywhere in training all of a sudden you have a massive beginners class and only one spare person to run it.

The club that I'm a member of charge an annual training fee. You start in beginners and you can keep coming back for the entire year. They have monthly upgrading and if you haven't progressed, you don't get upgraded. Its all good in theory, but because of the above, they end up having automatic upgrades regardless of the level that the dog is at because classes become too big for the number of available instructors. Despite this, they still have similar levels of drop outs....its just that the drop outs might persist in coming for a little longer.

Have we really come very far with dog training if many owners give up in frustration and many dogs don't actually get trained, despite our modern methods? Would in some ways be better perhaps if dog owners who just want reasonably obedient pets were directed to a traditional 12 week "Koehler" course for their basic pet obedience, just so their dogs actually do get trained, rather than getting them to struggle with more modern methods and risking having them quit in frustration?

(Yes, there's a question that could start a nasty flame war! It's not intended to, though I do think it would make an interesting discussion.)

;) No flaming from me.

Sometimes its not so much the method that is to be questioned.

I think that you'd still come up with some similar issues if you did just the Koehler method because we still have to rely on the handlers ability to implement it. I think what is needed is that more time is given to give the handlers the available options and the pro's and con's of each option, then let them chose which way they would like to proceed.

Its not always that instructors lack the ability to do this, sometimes its just that they don't have the time or resources to do it in the face of having to deal with so many people.

I think that the above could be over come if beginners classes included some class room time for the handlers. If the class goes for an hour, then at least half that time is spent in a class room without the dogs so that you can have the full attention of the handler who is not struggling with an unruly dog. Then get the dogs out.

Ah, but the extremist positive-only trainers have great marketing skills too. I have been told by positive-only trainers and students that correction collars are abusive and unnecessary (prong collars are "disgusting"). And that punishment might "appear to work" but really just a short term fix, and it ruins your dog's trust in you. And that trainers that use punishment are only doing it because they lack the knowledge to use reinforcers effectively.

So as an extreme-PP dog school student, you can be happy in the knowledge that even if your dog isn't trained, at least you didn't abuse him like the nasty balanced trainers down the road would have. I imagine that feeling like that is a pretty good incentive not to join a balanced training school, even if your PP school didn't work out for you particularly well.

Yeah, I know where you're coming from on that! But what if you could say...."We're happy to teach you PP if that is what you want, but it may take longer to get results". Or, "Lets figure out what level of cxn/punishment you feel comfortable with and we'll help you put together a training program to suit you"

Some class room time for the handlers could help facilitate that.

when did dog trinang get so complicated lol

When people got involved :p

Im so glad i dont have to deal wiht other people and their dogs i think i'd go nuts

Either that, or you'd start to become desensitised to the areas where results weren't being produced, or you'd say..."This obviously isn't working, what can we change to help things be better?"

at the end of the day a fad is a fad anad agimmick is a gimmick and the majority of the joe publics arent going to put in the work they really need to to trian their dog they will blame the instructors the mthod the equipment rather than their lack of conviction to trianing their pooch

Yes, you're right there to a certain extent....but sometimes we forget that some Joe Publics have paid to come along because they want things to be different, if they didn't, they wouldn't have paid to come along. Sometimes its all too easy for a trainer to blame the handler and the dog that don't get results rather than question whether the method really suited that dog and handler combination.

Many dogs at the positive-only clubs I've been to have been reasonably unfocused or even quite out of control. In my experience, at the end of the 8 week basic course, many of the dogs will still not have a reliable off-leash recall or a stay. Many will leave the area pulling their owners behind them on the lead! That makes me think that positive-only training just isn't helpful for the majority of pet owners, who simply want to achieve a reasonable level of control over their dog within a reasonable time frame.

Yes, I agree.

But I sometimes think that the problem stems from more than just the fact that PP training is used.

At many clubs there are too many 'grey' areas for dogs in the training. Doing a heel pattern and working for a loose lead one minute, then having a break and allowing the dog to pull on lead while it plays with another dog. The dog sees someone it knows and they greet it, and its allowed to pull on lead to go to them to get some attention. One minute the dog is being encouraged to not pull on lead, the next being rewarded for pulling on lead. Its almost as though the dog is always making the decision as to when pulling on lead is appropriate, and the trainers are just rewarding it for not pulling on lead without realising that it gets rewarded for pulling on lead too. I wonder how many of those dogs that don't improve over an 8 week period and are unfocused are just stressed over the mixed messages? I've seen the same phenomenon at balanced clubs where one minute the dog is getting corrected for pulling on lead and the next its getting rewarded for pulling on lead.

I think the craze for positive-only training stems from a couple of things. First is our change of attitude towards our dogs - people generally treat their dogs more as members of the family now, compared to fifty years ago when a dog was considered "just a dog" instead of a little fur-person. Hence, most modern pet owners feel guiltier about correcting our dogs, and don't want to do it. Secondly, positive only training is so popular that corrections are just not well understood by many volunteer instructors, many don't even understand the difference between a fair and unfair correction, or understand the difference between the teaching, training and proofing stages of learning - so they don't want to teach corrections or even allow corrections in their classes.

And I wonder how many of those qualified behaviourists that sell all the PP books have recognised the trend and market their businesses to that end. After all, science is science. I wonder if they have read the science background studies and disagree with it, or base the views that they promote on market research? (Or am I being overly cynical )

I'm grateful for the PP movement for what it has bought to the dog training world...but extremism in any field can be dangerous.

I'm not saying that positive-only can't work, I know for sure that it can work for some dogs, especially under the guidance of skilled instructors. Just saying that in the clubs I've seen, positive-only generally isn't working for the people who attend, not in the time frame that the courses run for. I think most pet owners would be better off learning balanced training, so they know how any why to correct a dog, as well as how and why to reward. Even if they do just have soft show-line dogs. :p

JMO.

Back to the marketing perspective, I believe that the above is why the balanced training view will eventually win out. We can't change the fact that we do live in a throw away world. How many businesses would you return to if you never got what you paid for? We can't change the people, but we can change what and how we teach them.

Just a thought on the 'clowning around' thing....

Generally you find that people are unwilling to display any behaviour that is outside the 'norm' esp when they are amongst a group of people that they don't know well or don't feel comfortable around. I'm sometimes one of them Not where my dog is concerned though.

When I watch animal sports, some of the things I absolutely love to see in an animal/human team are genuine respect, compassion, a sense of fun and fairness. I find it attractive and uplifting.

Too often I think us humans get too wrapped up in how we feel rather than how our dogs need us to feel in order to get the best out of us and the experiences we are giving them basically because we are worried about how our actions might look to the outsider.

So, some people might look at you and think...."What an idiot!". But how important to you is the opinion of such people in comparison to the working relationship you develop with your dog?

I reckon real dog lovers will be watching with a warm smile in their hearts and be uplifted. The others will come to envy the working relationship that you develop with your dog.

So instead of thinking..."Oh, no! I have to act the fool...what will people think?", try "This is what my dog needs from me right now".

Can I ask a probable silly question here, apart from heeling, what do you all think is the advantage of a prong?

Hi LL. Since I'd already done so much talking in this thread, I was kind of hoping that someone else would come in and answer this question for you

I guess the advantages have been touched on in other posts, but here's my personal take.

Apart from heeling, a prong can be used in any application where you’d used a check chain. For me it wasn’t so much about formal heeling…didn’t have any problems there, it was more about the loose lead walking. The times that I wanted to let my dog have the freedom of the length of the lead to sniff, greet people without her self triggering on something that she found rewarding in the environment.

The advantage of the prong in my mind and in my personal circumstances takes into account a number of different things.

I like to reduce as far as possible my physical and vocal involvement in the cxn because…..

Scenario: You and I are taking part in an arm wrestling competition, we are reasonably evenly matched and there is $1000 up for grabs. There is a lot of effort, grunting, yelling and sweat on both sides and the potential for a win wavers back and forth between us, but I eventually win. You might think “It doesn’t matter, I’ll get her next time, I was so close, I almost had that $1000.” You might come back with a renewed effort and be prepared to try harder.

But, if during that arm wrestle I beat you easily without breaking a sweat whilst simultaneously reading a book and sipping on a pina colada, in fact I hardly even noticed you were there, you’d be less likely to feel that you had a chance of winning. You’d be less likely to think you could gain something from another challenge. Further more, if I also then gave you $500 for not challenging me (read obey my command), why would you even bother trying? I may not be offering you the $1000 that you originally had hopes of getting (and lets face it, we can’t always offer a reinforcer that the dog values as highly as the one of his own choosing) but you didn’t lose out entirely either.

The prong gives me that advantage.

Next, I don’t like to apply a lot of force in the correction. The more force applied, the greater the potential for injury. Where two opposing forces meet there is the potential for damage, the greater the force/velocity, the greater that potential. So often you see a high drive, hard headed dog, that has a high threshold of pain (either natural or elevated by the drive) where you see a correction that virtually rips the dog off its feet in order to get the message across. There are two problems here. The first is that a high threshold for pain is no protection from injury. The second is that there are many people out there who don’t want to deliver that level of correction in order to teach/control their dog. They find it personally distasteful (and I’ll admit that I’m one of them), so the dog either gets away with the behaviour, becomes desensitised to the level of correction that the handler is willing to apply, or never stops challenging the handler in that situation.

There is another aspect of the prong that this thread hasn’t yet covered.

Some liken the action of the prongs on the dogs skin to that of another dog disciplining it by biting it on the neck.

I think that the action of the prongs may trigger a much deeper/earlier survival instinct than that, one that induces calm and relaxed compliance.

When a dam in the wild needed to move her whelps, she carried them with her teeth by the scruff of the neck. If you’ve ever seen this happen you know that in the majority of cases, when a whelp is carried in such a fashion, it stops moving, is in a state of relative relaxation and is quiet. I believe that this could be a survival mechanism. Predators were less likely to be alerted to the fact that the dam and whelps are in a potentially defenseless situation, or that the litter is being moved to a new location.

I wonder how much of this influences the effectiveness of the prong? I wonder if its not just a case of ‘you’re being bad, so I’m going to bite you’, but are there also elements of ‘calm down and be quiet, there is potential danger’? And if this is the case, does the prong also reinforce in the dog in a non-threatening, non-aggressive manner that ‘I am your protector, your leader, and I provide everything you need for survival’?

OR…am I being overly fanciful?

If you are physically not able to handle a specific dog sometimes for both, owner and dog, it is better to look for a new home. I know, that is a heartbraking solution but most probabely in both their interests... ;)

I think that is one of the points of this thread. Expanding the training options means that dogs are more likely to be able to stay with their families. Statistics, factual data and anecdotal evidence indicate that PP trainers are more likely to arrive at a solution similar to yours than balanced trainers are.

RSPCA promotes PP training....yet approx 50% of those dogs and puppies that they euthanase are euthanased for behavioural reasons.

Dr Kersti Seksel BVSc (Hons) MRCVS MA (Hons) MACVSc (Animal Behaviour) from her speakers notes at the Brisbane Clomicalm Conference:

"The largest cause of death of puppies under one year of age is said to be euthanasia due to behavioural problems. Indeed, most dogs do not live to their full age potential. The average age of dogs in Australia is estimated to be only 3.5 years, which is well below their potential biological age. In fact, behaviour problems are now considered by some to be the number one reason for euthanasia in pets, regardless of age."

There is a discussion paper doing the rounds from the Qld Govt at the moment asking for comment on planned compulsory desexing legislation to help lower the number of animals that are euthanased at pounds and animal shelters. To me, and based on the above, compulsory desexing only addresses half of the problem. A dog that ends up in these facilities that has behavioural problems is still going to be euthanased regardless of whether or not it is desexed.

You have made a choice of never using any form of punishment for bad behaviour but you always keep the dog on a lead.

I made a choice that I do use some forms of punishement and my dogs get the freedom of running off lead.

I will never regret my choice as seeing my dogs enjoy their free run is all aobut their quality of life that I am able to provide them with.

On the same note - some people will chose not to ever walk their dogs as they pull so much, and some will get the prong collar and take the dog out for a walk. I know what would I choose.

I agree ;)

Trained = Freedom and access to high levels of mental and physical stimulation.

Managed = Reduction of levels of freedom, mental and physical stimulation.

Just one thing i would like to add re: the rehoming of dogs not suited to their owners. Who do you propose these dogs are rehomed to? Adult dogs with behaviour problems are not the most popular dog for rehoming and even if a home could be found, the chances of finding a home capable of dealing with the problems effectively are not that high. I would much rather use an appropriate tool to stop a problem behaviour and save that dog the stress of either being rehomed or being euthanased when that suitable home cannot be found..

Thats just it. When most people want a new dog they want a puppy. By the time many owners give up on the behavioural/training issues their dogs have....they are no longer puppies.

I have a round calico covered bolster cushion. I fitted the prong collar around it, attached my best leather lead, put the cushion on the ground and stood on it a foot either side of the prong. With the best of my effort and strength jerking the lead upwards, I couldn't make the prongs pierce the calico cover on the cushion. (Although I think I did pull a muscle in my shoulder )

I love your thinking, Rom ....

Hope your shoulder's ok ...................... all in a good cause ;)

Yeah, its all good. I have decided to never try to train a cushion though :cool:

I had another thought on this topic....

If I remember correctly, the Vic legislation infers that the prong collar is designed to puncture the skin. On the face of it, by the way the prong looks, many could come to the same misunderstanding.

So I've had another little play with the prong. Not terribly scientific mind you...but good for demo purposes I guess.

I have a round calico covered bolster cushion. I fitted the prong collar around it, attached my best leather lead, put the cushion on the ground and stood on it a foot either side of the prong. With the best of my effort and strength jerking the lead upwards, I couldn't make the prongs pierce the calico cover on the cushion. (Although I think I did pull a muscle in my shoulder ) I know that a calico covered cushion really doesn't represent a dogs neck, but you would think that calicos more or less open weave in comparison to the cohesional integrity of skin, that the prongs would be more likely to pierce the calico than they would skin.

I remember as a kid being curious about the semi clad guys in the freak show at circuses who laid on beds of nails...in movies I think...don't think I ever saw it in the flesh. I remember thinking that there must be some trick...the nails must be rubber or something otherwise that guy would be skewered. Then I remember seeing one of those 'tricks exposed' programs where they explained the trick behind the bed of nails. Yes the nails are real and they are sharp, but the reason that the guy doesn't get skewered is because the number of nails in the bed reduces the psi of pressure put on each nail from the guys body weight. They actually demonstrated how unlikely it was for the nails to pierce the skin by getting a semi clad guy to lay on a real bed of nails, laying a board over his stomache and getting a truck to drive over him. He still didn't get skewered.

I personally can not see ANY reason why I shoul use a punishment on my dog when it is simply MY OWN FAULT if he hasn't learned to do want I want.

If my dog is pulling I am teaching him not to in a positive way. It is simple as that.

I donn't even use any sort of collar (only harnesses) to prevent my dogs of getting injured (or any sort of pain/uncomfortnes) just in case they do jump in the leash (which they both don't do).

I can't see ANY reason to use force or punishment on my dogs since I am working solely positive (I am a "clicker addict" for 10 years now). For me force/punishment etc starts where knowledge ends. Both are very happy, creative dogs that alwas want to please and as soon as they understand that a behaviour is not appropriate (and therefore simply not reinforced by me) they won't do it again. There are ALWAYS other ways to deal with a situation and up to now I have never had one where there are no other options than punishing/forcing my dogs.

Hi Anissa , I've really enjoyed reading your posts....you post some beautiful pictures.

I'd like to clarify the below in relation to your post above

Anissa:

I only use harnesses on my dogs since I think it is very bad for their back to be held on a dog collar (esp when pulling). My Galgo-X is a real hunter so when he spots a Roo (or whatever) he jumps into the lead and could seriously injure his back when wearing just a collar.

Have you managed to change this behaviour using just the clicker since the above post? Or is it a behaviour that you have just decided to manage with a harness?

If there is something in clicker training that I've missed, I'd really like to know!

In the example of the lady with the GSP above, a harness isn't the answer. Harnesses are often used to make pulling easier and more comfortable for those dogs that are engaged in activities that require them to pull such as sledding.

At the time, she had him on what I think was a sporn harness...one of those that have straps that tighten and put pressure on the nerves in the front legs to discourage a dog from pulling.

I'm glad to hear she is still out there trying - I haven't seen her for ages, so thought she'd stopped coming. Given that the sporn harness works by pressure on the nerves of the dog's front legs, I dont' understand why people are so opposed to the prong collar, which serves in the same or at least similar manner, ie by putting pressure on the nerves at skin depth at the dog's neck.

Ooops! Erny, I made the assumption that she'd given up since I saw her. I'm really glad that she's still out there trying with this dog. She has my respect. She is putting in an awful lot for this dog.

Maybe you could stick with German commands and just change the sound a little so they become English:

Platz = Place

Fuss = Foot

Hier = Here (sounds pretty much the same anyways...doesn't it?)

Can't remember what German for 'stand' or 'stay' is.

Might save you a verbal fumble too...I know I'd probably make a verbal error in the ring if I had to change commands I was used to

Out of curiosity, I had a play with the prong today to test the level of the pinch. In its no tension state, the prongs (or pinchers if you will) were 29mm apart. At full pinch...or enough tension on the lead to take up all of the limited slip chain, the prongs were 23mm apart. So a total of 6mm of movement. The measurements may be a little out cuz I did the test on my own leg, and it was tricky holding the prong in one hand and trying to get the measurements with the other.

I just thought I'd post that to demonstrate that its not like the nasty pinch you got from the school bully, more like the tweak that your grandma gave you on the cheek when she said 'My, hasn't she grown?!' Which I'll admit that I didn't always find that comfortable as a kid , but it was hardly abuse.

When I was waiting for a Ridgie pup (for 12 months) one of the first that come available was a singleton. I turned it down. I figured that there could be a chance of issues that I really felt I didn't know enough about to deal with in an effective manner.

But also the breeder was trying to re-establish some old lines and I guess wished to stand by her words to let me have a bitch from the litter. That this pup was the only one to survive (2 delivered by caesar, but one died soon after) was probably important to the breeding program, so the breeder kept her and raised her.

I met the pup at various occasions and initially she did seem to have some socialisation issues, both with people and dogs, however the last time I saw her was at a camp out practice tracking weekend. While she didn't really seek any attention from strange people, she wasn't intolerant of them and seemed to get along with other dogs in an offlead setting fine. If she was uncomfortable, she was more likely to show avoidance than aggression.

Nature or nurture? I couldn't say....don't know enough in this area.

I will add that she was raised in the normal way by her dam though.

ETA: I have fostered a pup that was dumped...probably around 2-3 weeks of age as it had only just started cutting its baby teeth (breeders could probably give a more accurate guesstimation of age based on that). She was a cattle cross something...had one blue eye. She was partially fed bottle formula but was also happy to eat. I had 2 adult dogs at home who were great with the foster pups. This pup was successfully rehomed at apprx 12 weeks to another home with dogs and she had neither issues with people or dogs. I was lucky enough to be in the position where she could come to work with me though, so she got heaps of socialisation from the get go.

There are some pictures of prongs in this thread.

I know of a lady who has owned GSP's all (or at least most) of her life. She came for help because the one living with her now was over exuberant and unmanageable on walks. A delightful dog it is, too - and very responsive. Within 15 minutes in the hands of a trainer, the dog was walking quite nicely and very respectful to its obedience commands. Certainly wonderful dog. The problem was that its owner had arthritis - not only, but especially worse, in her hands. The arthritis had worsened and the dog, being the wilful spirit that he is, was able to take advantage of his owner's limitation. We worked with the owner and this dog, over time, trying also the use of a head-collar. The owner was even less able to utilise this, given her dog's aversion to it. I really do believe this dog would have performed excellently for its owner if the prong ban currently in force had not prohibited its use. Unfortunately I won't know the outcome for this lady and her dog as after at least 12 months of effort (with comparitively smallish improvement), she no longer comes to class.

I think I actually met this lady when visiting the Hawthorn ADT at the beginning of June when I was in Melbourne. I really felt for her. She was frustrated, embarrased. She sooo wanted for things to be better for both her own sake and that of her dog. She was at a loss as to why this particular dog was so different to train than the other GSP's that she'd had. I'm really sad to hear that she has stopped coming to training.

At the time, she had him on what I think was a sporn harness...one of those that have straps that tighten and put pressure on the nerves in the front legs to discourage a dog from pulling. Despite this, the dog still managed to get away from her....he had a marvellous time tearing around the training field trying to round birds, and you're right Erny, he is a gorgeous dog.

Here is a dog that clearly needs the mental stimulation and physical exercise that regular walking would help provide. His owner loves him, understands the breed, and under different circumstances, would be more than willing to put the time into him to ensure he gets what he needs. Whilst I don't know all of this ladies circumstances, the danger now is that there will be limited options available to her to help provide him with the level of mental stimulation and physical exercise that would help keep him manageable and in his frustration of not getting his needs in these areas met, he may develop other unwanted behaviours.

The simple act of walking him, in the instance of this handler and this dog using the methods legally available, presents the possibility of far too many dangers for both the dog, the handler and the public in general. Just one of many instances where the legislation is letting caring dog owners down.

Thanks Erny

Please do use it. If it helps to save a dog, then I'm happy!

One thing that I found interesting after I got my prong, was that 4 other people, including one who would otherwise refer to herself as a PP trainer 'come out of the closet' and admitted that they had owned/bred the odd dog that resorted to using the prong on. These are people who have owned/bred/trained dogs for anything up to 30 years. However, none suggested the prong to me when they saw my girls issues.

Since getting my prong, I've met two other people directly through the doggy world who use them. One has withdrawn from the doggy world because she felt that it was the best thing for her dog since she wasn't allowed to have him on prong at doggy events. The other is a closet user because the doggy group that she is a member of doesn't allow them.

Willow, it wasn't that long ago that my beliefs were similar to yours . My current dog has led my education in ways that I wouldn't have expected three years ago.

I was also involved with the RSPCA, and know that they support PP training. However, through my own research on the importance of obedience training, 2 years ago I contacted the Head of Shelter Operations for RSPCA in Qld to ask what percentage of dogs were euthanised for behavioural reason. For the 2004/2005 period, approx 50% of those dogs and puppies that were euthanised were euthanised for behavioural reasons....

Dog dumpage rates are reaching horrendous levels. I have to wonder if some of those dogs that were euthanised for behavioural reasons would still be with their families had there been a wider range of 'politically correct' training methods available to them? Methods that suited the temperament/drives/thresholds of the dog in question? And, has the PP training culture let these dogs down?

I've been working on an analogy that I haven't really nutted out yet, but it's something along the lines of this:

Nobody looks forward to their dog having to undergo surgery. There are inherent risks associated, and the recovery time to consider. However, sometimes surgery is the best option available for the dog and the trade off is for some short term suffering and discomfort, the future prognosis is good and the dog will be able to live a life of greater health, comfort and freedom.

I look at administering corrections as though I was specialist surgeon. Do the absolute minimally invasive surgery you have to do, but do it well enough that you fix the problem promptly without having to go back. Don't over medicate because more is not necessarily better. Do the absolute best you can to protect the overall physical, mental, and emotional well being of the patient so that they can, to the best of your ability, live a long and healthy life.

In some instances, its not just the dog whose life depends on it. Its the anguish of the family that owns and loves that dog.

ETA emoticon to indicate that I wasn't flame throwing :D

I heard of a girl up here that got NQ'd in the SFE for her lead touching the ground when she left the dog....its not in the rules, but it happened.

I'd be asking why. May all be above board, but if there's something you've missed that you need to train for its best knowing sooner rather than later.

Cosmolo, is this the same club at which the instructors were giving you grief in agility?

I don't have access to enough space without competing scents to do tracking properly though.

I never really had the option of scent sterile grounds...I'm not sure how important it is. While my own block is 2.5 acres and dog fenced, its in a rural area and we get visiting wildlife. The first time I took my girl outside of my block, I went to the vacant block next door which was a little more over grown than mine and she flushed a hare during the course of the track. She followed it for about 6 paces before she self corrected and moved back to the track.

For variety I took her into town to some of the public parks for practice, and these parks were full of competing scents..kids walking to and from school, people walking their dogs, sports days, picnics and in some places wildlife (ducks, wallabies and hares).

The other thing is, nobody can guarantee a scent sterile ground at a trial. Many of the grounds that are used for trials up this way are working cattle farms and there is no way of protecting the track from unplanned cross tracks. Also, the higher tracking tests actually have planned cross tracks laid that your dog has to ignore....so I figure that training with the possibility of unplanned cross tracks strengthens your dogs performance.

So I guess that marking the beginning of the track that you want your dog to follow with a scented article, and have them working towards a reward for following the track that you've laid and no reward for leaving the track may be the answer?

Even though I'd attended a few trials and either stewarded or was the track layer on a number of occasions to learn about tracking, I wasn't really sure how to start of training my pup when I got her.

Still not sure if I did the best thing....but it seemed to work for her. When she was a baby I used to let her watch me get her breakfast ready, then I'd walk outside with it and lock her in the shed while I took her breakfast for a walk (I've got 2.5 acres). Then I'd let her out of the shed and encourage her to follow my track to find her breakfast. Initially I kept the tracks fairly short...around 15 metres. As she got the idea, and put her nose to the ground, I started to gradually make her tracks longer and more complex (i.e. putting in corners instead of straight lines.)

Once the tracks were about 50meters long, I started adding scent articles. I'm not sure I'd do the scent articles the same way again because it really didn't teach her a clear way of identifying the articles. But here's what I did anyway: I put an article on the track maybe every 10 metres with a treat on it. To start off she was actually 'looking' for the articles instead of putting her nose to the ground to find them, but as I continued to lengthen the track, I started to reduce the number of articles and her nose went back to the ground again. Thing was though...once she understood the game, she wasn't that interested in the articles with treats since her breakfast was at the end. So she modified the game a little and she'd race past the articles with her nose on the ground, find her breakfast, then back track to the articles to get the treats.

I left her off lead during all of the above training at home and only really started putting her on harness when we started training at unfamiliar unfenced grounds. She passed her tracking test and TD1, but it was apparent that we needed to put more work into article identification to progress. I then started playing an article game with her where I'd throw a bunch of articles on the ground and taught her to pick them up using treats and clicker. Once she got the hang of picking up the articles, she really loved this game! I decided to teach her to pick up the article because it was something she could do on the move during tracking, but also, someone had suggested that I teach her to drop at the article, and she really lost all interest in tracking once I tried to get her to drop. I figured that she'd be happier on this one if she could do something to clearly indicate the article, yet still be able to keep moving.

In reality, my dog taught me about tracking...all I had to do was provide strong enough motivation for her to want to get to the end of the track.

When I started training with other people...different scents, once again we started on shorter tracks, but I'd give a can of sardines to the track layer to give her once she found them.

I did throw in a little footstep tracking training (i.e. putting treats in each footstep as you lay the track) but once again, while it helped to give her the idea she wasn't really that interested in the treats if breakfast was at the end. I also found that the slower she worked a track, the more likely she was to lose interest in it, but if she could keep up a nice pace she was happier working the track and was less likely to lose it.

I suggest that you try to attend some trials...you'll get loads of different ideas about what to try esp if you voluteer to steward or track lay :rolleyes: .